* [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux @ 2009-11-21 21:33 Lorenzo Bolla 2009-11-21 22:27 ` Mathieu Lonjaret 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Lorenzo Bolla @ 2009-11-21 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 255 bytes --] Hi all, can anyone point me to a document (if any) that explains how to use acme/Mail to read e-mail in Linux? I couldn't find any useful information in the plan9port distribution and it does not work "out-of-the-box". Thanks for your help! L. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 331 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2009-11-21 21:33 [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux Lorenzo Bolla @ 2009-11-21 22:27 ` Mathieu Lonjaret 2009-12-17 7:48 ` Jason Catena 2010-03-23 11:18 ` hugo rivera 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Mathieu Lonjaret @ 2009-11-21 22:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Lorenzo Bolla <lbolla@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, > can anyone point me to a document (if any) that explains how to use > acme/Mail to read e-mail in Linux? > I couldn't find any useful information in the plan9port distribution and it > does not work "out-of-the-box". > Thanks for your help! > L. 1) build and install mailfs cd $PLAN9/src/cmd/upas/ mk install cd nfs mk install 2) configuration cd $PLAN9/log; chmod 666 smtp smtp.debug smtp.fail mail >smtp >smtp.debug >smtp.fail >mail cd $PLAN9/mail/lib edit rewrite optionnally edit remotemail 3) authentication factotum factotum -g 'proto=pass service=imap server=your.imap.server user=you_there !password?' 4) run it! mailfs -t your.imap.server (-t is for tls) button 2 exec on 'Mail' in acme (without the quotes) (you need the plumber running for everything to work as expected in acme) hth, Mathieu ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2009-11-21 22:27 ` Mathieu Lonjaret @ 2009-12-17 7:48 ` Jason Catena 2010-03-23 11:18 ` hugo rivera 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Jason Catena @ 2009-12-17 7:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I followed these excellent instructions to the end (mailfs: imapconnect: Success) and get this error when I try to button-2-click Mail in acme. mailfs: imapconnect: Success Mail: cannot mount mail: dial unix!/tmp/ns.jdc.192.168.1.102:0/mail: connect /tmp/ns.jdc.192.168.1.102:0/mail: No such file or directory mail is indeed not in the namespace directory. These files are present. /tmp/ns.jdc.192.168.1.102:0/acme /tmp/ns.jdc.192.168.1.102:0/factotum /tmp/ns.jdc.192.168.1.102:0/plumb What should I run to make it present? Does mailfs mislead me by saying it succeeded? Jason Catena On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 16:27, Mathieu Lonjaret <mathieu.lonjaret@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Lorenzo Bolla <lbolla@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi all, >> can anyone point me to a document (if any) that explains how to use >> acme/Mail to read e-mail in Linux? >> I couldn't find any useful information in the plan9port distribution and it >> does not work "out-of-the-box". >> Thanks for your help! >> L. > > 1) build and install mailfs > cd $PLAN9/src/cmd/upas/ > mk install > cd nfs > mk install > > 2) configuration > cd $PLAN9/log; chmod 666 smtp smtp.debug smtp.fail mail >smtp >>smtp.debug >smtp.fail >mail > cd $PLAN9/mail/lib > edit rewrite > optionnally edit remotemail > > 3) authentication > factotum > factotum -g 'proto=pass service=imap server=your.imap.server > user=you_there !password?' > > 4) run it! > mailfs -t your.imap.server (-t is for tls) > button 2 exec on 'Mail' in acme (without the quotes) > (you need the plumber running for everything to work as expected in acme) > > hth, > Mathieu > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2009-11-21 22:27 ` Mathieu Lonjaret 2009-12-17 7:48 ` Jason Catena @ 2010-03-23 11:18 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-23 13:02 ` Mathieu Lonjaret 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: hugo rivera @ 2010-03-23 11:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I configured mailfs so now I can read email, thanks. But writing mail is not going so well: $ cat $PLAN9/log/smtp.fail myhost Mar 23 11:21:44 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) myhost Mar 23 11:28:06 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) myhost Mar 23 11:34:20 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) after using marshal to send messages. The file $PLAN9/mail/queue/hugo/E.XXXXXX contains a very similar error smtp: bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) I've been playing around with files inside $PLAN9/mail/lib but no success so far. Any tips are welcome! :-) 2009/11/21 Mathieu Lonjaret <mathieu.lonjaret@gmail.com>: > On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Lorenzo Bolla <lbolla@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi all, >> can anyone point me to a document (if any) that explains how to use >> acme/Mail to read e-mail in Linux? >> I couldn't find any useful information in the plan9port distribution and it >> does not work "out-of-the-box". >> Thanks for your help! >> L. > > 1) build and install mailfs > cd $PLAN9/src/cmd/upas/ > mk install > cd nfs > mk install > > 2) configuration > cd $PLAN9/log; chmod 666 smtp smtp.debug smtp.fail mail >smtp >>smtp.debug >smtp.fail >mail > cd $PLAN9/mail/lib > edit rewrite > optionnally edit remotemail > > 3) authentication > factotum > factotum -g 'proto=pass service=imap server=your.imap.server > user=you_there !password?' > > 4) run it! > mailfs -t your.imap.server (-t is for tls) > button 2 exec on 'Mail' in acme (without the quotes) > (you need the plumber running for everything to work as expected in acme) > > hth, > Mathieu > > -- Hugo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2010-03-23 11:18 ` hugo rivera @ 2010-03-23 13:02 ` Mathieu Lonjaret 2010-03-23 13:27 ` hugo rivera 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Mathieu Lonjaret @ 2010-03-23 13:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --] Hello, if you haven't done so yet, you need to edit the $PLAN9/mail/lib/rewrite file like that: # send all mail to the gateway or mail server, $smtp, for delivery ([^!]*)!(.*) | "$PLAN9/mail/lib/qmail '\s' 'xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx'" "'\2@\1'" where xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx is the ip address of your smtp. I think once I had some resolution problem, that's why I set it by ip here instead of by name. Works fine enough so I never bothered to do it by name afterwards. hth, Mathieu [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 6404 bytes --] From: hugo rivera <uair00@gmail.com> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:18:56 +0100 Message-ID: <138575261003230418y337542b0xb1b72afd72982e9a@mail.gmail.com> I configured mailfs so now I can read email, thanks. But writing mail is not going so well: $ cat $PLAN9/log/smtp.fail myhost Mar 23 11:21:44 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) myhost Mar 23 11:28:06 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) myhost Mar 23 11:34:20 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) after using marshal to send messages. The file $PLAN9/mail/queue/hugo/E.XXXXXX contains a very similar error smtp: bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) I've been playing around with files inside $PLAN9/mail/lib but no success so far. Any tips are welcome! :-) 2009/11/21 Mathieu Lonjaret <mathieu.lonjaret@gmail.com>: > On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Lorenzo Bolla <lbolla@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi all, >> can anyone point me to a document (if any) that explains how to use >> acme/Mail to read e-mail in Linux? >> I couldn't find any useful information in the plan9port distribution and it >> does not work "out-of-the-box". >> Thanks for your help! >> L. > > 1) build and install mailfs > cd $PLAN9/src/cmd/upas/ > mk install > cd nfs > mk install > > 2) configuration > cd $PLAN9/log; chmod 666 smtp smtp.debug smtp.fail mail >smtp >>smtp.debug >smtp.fail >mail > cd $PLAN9/mail/lib > edit rewrite > optionnally edit remotemail > > 3) authentication > factotum > factotum -g 'proto=pass service=imap server=your.imap.server > user=you_there !password?' > > 4) run it! > mailfs -t your.imap.server (-t is for tls) > button 2 exec on 'Mail' in acme (without the quotes) > (you need the plumber running for everything to work as expected in acme) > > hth, > Mathieu > > -- Hugo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2010-03-23 13:02 ` Mathieu Lonjaret @ 2010-03-23 13:27 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-23 13:37 ` Mathieu Lonjaret 2010-03-23 15:13 ` Steve Simon 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: hugo rivera @ 2010-03-23 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Great! now it works. Thank you very much; you answered in the exact moment, otherwise frustration would have been too great :-) One last thing (I hope): when I'm reading the mail on my imap server with nedmail, and I want to save a message, I get : 3 w /tmp/3 !message disappeared and nothing gets written. Do you have any idea what's causing this? and even better, how to solve it :-) 2010/3/23 Mathieu Lonjaret <mathieu.lonjaret@gmail.com>: > Hello, > > if you haven't done so yet, you need to edit the > $PLAN9/mail/lib/rewrite file like that: > > # send all mail to the gateway or mail server, $smtp, for delivery > ([^!]*)!(.*) | "$PLAN9/mail/lib/qmail '\s' 'xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx'" "'\2@\1'" > > where xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx is the ip address of your smtp. I think once I > had some resolution problem, that's why I set it by ip here instead of > by name. Works fine enough so I never bothered to do it by name > afterwards. > > hth, > Mathieu > > > ---------- Mensaje reenviado ---------- > From: hugo rivera <uair00@gmail.com> > To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> > Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:18:56 +0100 > Subject: Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux > I configured mailfs so now I can read email, thanks. > But writing mail is not going so well: > > $ cat $PLAN9/log/smtp.fail > myhost Mar 23 11:21:44 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) > myhost Mar 23 11:28:06 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) > myhost Mar 23 11:34:20 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) > > after using marshal to send messages. The file > $PLAN9/mail/queue/hugo/E.XXXXXX contains a very similar error > > smtp: bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) > > I've been playing around with files inside $PLAN9/mail/lib but no > success so far. Any tips are welcome! :-) > > 2009/11/21 Mathieu Lonjaret <mathieu.lonjaret@gmail.com>: >> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Lorenzo Bolla <lbolla@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> can anyone point me to a document (if any) that explains how to use >>> acme/Mail to read e-mail in Linux? >>> I couldn't find any useful information in the plan9port distribution and it >>> does not work "out-of-the-box". >>> Thanks for your help! >>> L. >> >> 1) build and install mailfs >> cd $PLAN9/src/cmd/upas/ >> mk install >> cd nfs >> mk install >> >> 2) configuration >> cd $PLAN9/log; chmod 666 smtp smtp.debug smtp.fail mail >smtp >>>smtp.debug >smtp.fail >mail >> cd $PLAN9/mail/lib >> edit rewrite >> optionnally edit remotemail >> >> 3) authentication >> factotum >> factotum -g 'proto=pass service=imap server=your.imap.server >> user=you_there !password?' >> >> 4) run it! >> mailfs -t your.imap.server (-t is for tls) >> button 2 exec on 'Mail' in acme (without the quotes) >> (you need the plumber running for everything to work as expected in acme) >> >> hth, >> Mathieu >> >> > > > > -- > Hugo > > -- Hugo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2010-03-23 13:27 ` hugo rivera @ 2010-03-23 13:37 ` Mathieu Lonjaret 2010-03-23 14:29 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-23 15:13 ` Steve Simon 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Mathieu Lonjaret @ 2010-03-23 13:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 234 bytes --] Nope, I hardly ever tried nedmail. Others like Erik might know. jsyk, saving a message is dead easy from acme Mail, you just middle click on "Save imapfoldername" ;) (assuming the imap folder already exists) Cheers, Mathieu [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 7772 bytes --] From: hugo rivera <uair00@gmail.com> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 14:27:44 +0100 Message-ID: <138575261003230627kb81c42q7710df1af4283919@mail.gmail.com> Great! now it works. Thank you very much; you answered in the exact moment, otherwise frustration would have been too great :-) One last thing (I hope): when I'm reading the mail on my imap server with nedmail, and I want to save a message, I get : 3 w /tmp/3 !message disappeared and nothing gets written. Do you have any idea what's causing this? and even better, how to solve it :-) 2010/3/23 Mathieu Lonjaret <mathieu.lonjaret@gmail.com>: > Hello, > > if you haven't done so yet, you need to edit the > $PLAN9/mail/lib/rewrite file like that: > > # send all mail to the gateway or mail server, $smtp, for delivery > ([^!]*)!(.*) | "$PLAN9/mail/lib/qmail '\s' 'xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx'" "'\2@\1'" > > where xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx is the ip address of your smtp. I think once I > had some resolution problem, that's why I set it by ip here instead of > by name. Works fine enough so I never bothered to do it by name > afterwards. > > hth, > Mathieu > > > ---------- Mensaje reenviado ---------- > From: hugo rivera <uair00@gmail.com> > To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> > Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:18:56 +0100 > Subject: Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux > I configured mailfs so now I can read email, thanks. > But writing mail is not going so well: > > $ cat $PLAN9/log/smtp.fail > myhost Mar 23 11:21:44 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) > myhost Mar 23 11:28:06 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) > myhost Mar 23 11:34:20 bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) > > after using marshal to send messages. The file > $PLAN9/mail/queue/hugo/E.XXXXXX contains a very similar error > > smtp: bad network /net/net!my.smtp.server!smtp (my.smtp.server) > > I've been playing around with files inside $PLAN9/mail/lib but no > success so far. Any tips are welcome! :-) > > 2009/11/21 Mathieu Lonjaret <mathieu.lonjaret@gmail.com>: >> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Lorenzo Bolla <lbolla@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> can anyone point me to a document (if any) that explains how to use >>> acme/Mail to read e-mail in Linux? >>> I couldn't find any useful information in the plan9port distribution and it >>> does not work "out-of-the-box". >>> Thanks for your help! >>> L. >> >> 1) build and install mailfs >> cd $PLAN9/src/cmd/upas/ >> mk install >> cd nfs >> mk install >> >> 2) configuration >> cd $PLAN9/log; chmod 666 smtp smtp.debug smtp.fail mail >smtp >>>smtp.debug >smtp.fail >mail >> cd $PLAN9/mail/lib >> edit rewrite >> optionnally edit remotemail >> >> 3) authentication >> factotum >> factotum -g 'proto=pass service=imap server=your.imap.server >> user=you_there !password?' >> >> 4) run it! >> mailfs -t your.imap.server (-t is for tls) >> button 2 exec on 'Mail' in acme (without the quotes) >> (you need the plumber running for everything to work as expected in acme) >> >> hth, >> Mathieu >> >> > > > > -- > Hugo > > -- Hugo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2010-03-23 13:37 ` Mathieu Lonjaret @ 2010-03-23 14:29 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-23 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Nope, I hardly ever tried nedmail. Others like Erik might know. > > jsyk, saving a message is dead easy from acme Mail, you just middle > click on "Save imapfoldername" ;) (assuming the imap folder already > exists) i don't know about the current nedmail for p9p. i'd guess that's a path problem. run ned in the debugger and set a bp on open. i'm guessing you'll find a path that needs adjusting for p9p/mailfs' different fs structure. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2010-03-23 13:27 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-23 13:37 ` Mathieu Lonjaret @ 2010-03-23 15:13 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-23 15:41 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-23 16:41 ` Russ Cox 1 sibling, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2010-03-23 15:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > when I'm reading the mail on my imap server > with nedmail, and I want to save a message, I get > > : 3 w /tmp/3 > !message disappeared I have no idea if this is related but in the early days with gmail it would automaticially remove messages when they where downloaded so they disappeared as fast as you tried to read them. Perhaps your imap server is doing somthing similar? -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2010-03-23 15:13 ` Steve Simon @ 2010-03-23 15:41 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-23 16:10 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-23 16:41 ` Russ Cox 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: David Leimbach @ 2010-03-23 15:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 547 bytes --] On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:13 AM, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote: > > when I'm reading the mail on my imap server > > with nedmail, and I want to save a message, I get > > > > : 3 w /tmp/3 > > !message disappeared > > I have no idea if this is related but in the early days with gmail it would > automaticially remove messages when they where downloaded so they > disappeared > as fast as you tried to read them. > > Perhaps your imap server is doing somthing similar? > Did gmail stop doing that? > > -Steve > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1022 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2010-03-23 15:41 ` David Leimbach @ 2010-03-23 16:10 ` Steve Simon 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2010-03-23 16:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Did gmail stop doing that? I think there as a fix, perhaps gmail now supports imap, or perhaps there was an option to disable this mode of operation? I rarely use my gmail account, prefering nedmail ☺ -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2010-03-23 15:13 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-23 15:41 ` David Leimbach @ 2010-03-23 16:41 ` Russ Cox 2010-03-23 17:02 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-24 9:59 ` [9fans] native install EBo 1 sibling, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2010-03-23 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > I have no idea if this is related but in the early days with gmail it would > automaticially remove messages when they where downloaded so they disappeared > as fast as you tried to read them. > > Perhaps your imap server is doing somthing similar? That was with POP3, not with IMAP. As to the original question, when I run acme Mail on plan9port I don't bother to set up the upas mail queues, which frankly I don't trust on top of a Unix file system. Instead you can create a $HOME/bin/pipefrom that sends the mail via the system mailer, maybe even on another machine. This is my current version, which is a bit more complex than it needs to be, but you get the idea. You could drop the ssh if you trust your local mail installation to be configured properly. Russ #!/usr/local/plan9/bin/rc host=swtch.com # where to relay via ssh if(! ~ $#upasname 1) upasname=rsc+bounces@swtch.com echo $* >>/home/rsc/pipefrom.log . /usr/local/plan9/bin/9.rc if(~ $1 -x){ shift echo $* exit 0 } if(~ $1 -*){ echo 'cannot deal with options' >[1=2] exit 1 } ipaddr=`{/sbin/ifconfig | sed -n 's/.*inet addr:([^ ]*) .*/\1/p'} if(~ $#ipaddr 0){ echo not online >[1=2] exit offline } exec ssh $host sendmail -f $upasname $* rsc+outbox@swtch.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2010-03-23 16:41 ` Russ Cox @ 2010-03-23 17:02 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-23 19:47 ` Russ Cox 2010-03-24 9:59 ` [9fans] native install EBo 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: hugo rivera @ 2010-03-23 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Thanks a lot! 2010/3/23 Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com>: >> I have no idea if this is related but in the early days with gmail it would >> automaticially remove messages when they where downloaded so they disappeared >> as fast as you tried to read them. >> >> Perhaps your imap server is doing somthing similar? > > That was with POP3, not with IMAP. > > As to the original question, when I run acme Mail on > plan9port I don't bother to set up the upas mail queues, > which frankly I don't trust on top of a Unix file system. > Instead you can create a $HOME/bin/pipefrom that > sends the mail via the system mailer, maybe even > on another machine. > > This is my current version, which is a bit more complex > than it needs to be, but you get the idea. You could > drop the ssh if you trust your local mail installation > to be configured properly. > > Russ > > #!/usr/local/plan9/bin/rc > > host=swtch.com # where to relay via ssh > > if(! ~ $#upasname 1) > upasname=rsc+bounces@swtch.com > > echo $* >>/home/rsc/pipefrom.log > . /usr/local/plan9/bin/9.rc > > if(~ $1 -x){ > shift > echo $* > exit 0 > } > if(~ $1 -*){ > echo 'cannot deal with options' >[1=2] > exit 1 > } > > ipaddr=`{/sbin/ifconfig | sed -n 's/.*inet addr:([^ ]*) .*/\1/p'} > if(~ $#ipaddr 0){ > echo not online >[1=2] > exit offline > } > > exec ssh $host sendmail -f $upasname $* rsc+outbox@swtch.com > > -- Hugo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux 2010-03-23 17:02 ` hugo rivera @ 2010-03-23 19:47 ` Russ Cox 2010-03-24 9:50 ` [9fans] VIA Rhine II support? EBo 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2010-03-23 19:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Sorry, I wrote $HOME/bin/pipefrom but in fact I meant $HOME/mail/pipefrom. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* [9fans] VIA Rhine II support? 2010-03-23 19:47 ` Russ Cox @ 2010-03-24 9:50 ` EBo 2010-03-24 10:24 ` Federico G. Benavento 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: EBo @ 2010-03-24 9:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Searching the net reveled that Stephan got his VIA Rhine II ethernet working a couple of years ago. Where can I find the patch or drivers? EBo -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] VIA Rhine II support? 2010-03-24 9:50 ` [9fans] VIA Rhine II support? EBo @ 2010-03-24 10:24 ` Federico G. Benavento 2010-03-25 18:56 ` Harri Haataja 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Federico G. Benavento @ 2010-03-24 10:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ebo, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs the drivers are in /sys/src/9/pc, ethervt6102.c and ethervt6105m.c check the device ID on those to see if they match yours, if they don't it might be an easy fix or a hard fix... On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 6:50 AM, EBo <ebo@sandien.com> wrote: > > Searching the net reveled that Stephan got his VIA Rhine II ethernet working a > couple of years ago. Where can I find the patch or drivers? > > EBo -- > > > -- Federico G. Benavento ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] VIA Rhine II support? 2010-03-24 10:24 ` Federico G. Benavento @ 2010-03-25 18:56 ` Harri Haataja 2010-03-25 19:08 ` EBo 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Harri Haataja @ 2010-03-25 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 24 March 2010 12:24, Federico G. Benavento <benavento@gmail.com> wrote: > the drivers are in /sys/src/9/pc, ethervt6102.c and ethervt6105m.c > check the device ID on those to see if they match yours, if they don't > it might be an easy fix or a hard fix... > > On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 6:50 AM, EBo <ebo@sandien.com> wrote: >> Searching the net reveled that Stephan got his VIA Rhine II ethernet working a >> couple of years ago. Where can I find the patch or drivers? As with other things Via, I'd recommend avoiding Rhine chips like the plague. -- I appear to be temporarily using gmail's horrible interface. I apologise for any failure in my part in trying to make it do the right thing with post formatting. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] VIA Rhine II support? 2010-03-25 18:56 ` Harri Haataja @ 2010-03-25 19:08 ` EBo 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: EBo @ 2010-03-25 19:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Harri Haataja, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > As with other things Via, I'd recommend avoiding Rhine chips like the plague. this is not a new buy, but an 8 year old laptop I'm playing with. At least the Rhine chip has better support than Broadcom as far as I can tell. Now *THAT* is company I avoid like a plague... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* [9fans] native install 2010-03-23 16:41 ` Russ Cox 2010-03-23 17:02 ` hugo rivera @ 2010-03-24 9:59 ` EBo 2010-03-24 14:56 ` David Leimbach 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: EBo @ 2010-03-24 9:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I just wanted to take a moment to thank Iru and Erik for their help with getting Plan 9 installed natively on my 4 machines. While I'm still having some difficulties with SATA/IDE issues, and non-supported ethernet devices, at least now I can test native support as well as hosted inferno, plan9port, and 9xv. Thanks! EBo -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 9:59 ` [9fans] native install EBo @ 2010-03-24 14:56 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-24 15:17 ` Richard Miller 2010-03-28 14:32 ` Georg Lehner 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: David Leimbach @ 2010-03-24 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ebo, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 563 bytes --] I'm glad there's another person out there with 4 machines running plan 9. That's really great. I never got beyond 2 :-) Dave On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:59 AM, EBo <ebo@sandien.com> wrote: > I just wanted to take a moment to thank Iru and Erik for their help with > getting Plan 9 installed natively on my 4 machines. While I'm still having > some difficulties with SATA/IDE issues, and non-supported ethernet devices, > at > least now I can test native support as well as hosted inferno, plan9port, > and 9xv. > > Thanks! > > EBo -- > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 868 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 14:56 ` David Leimbach @ 2010-03-24 15:17 ` Richard Miller 2010-03-24 15:22 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2010-03-24 15:23 ` andrey mirtchovski 2010-03-28 14:32 ` Georg Lehner 1 sibling, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Richard Miller @ 2010-03-24 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I'm glad there's another person out there with 4 machines running plan 9. Six here. Only three actually switched on at this moment. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 15:17 ` Richard Miller @ 2010-03-24 15:22 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2010-03-24 16:00 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-24 15:23 ` andrey mirtchovski 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2010-03-24 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs About 4 * 40 here (students) plus our terminals and servers (4, 5 people, depends). On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com> wrote: >> I'm glad there's another person out there with 4 machines running plan 9. > > Six here. Only three actually switched on at this moment. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 15:22 ` Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2010-03-24 16:00 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-24 16:05 ` Steve Simon 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-24 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed Mar 24 11:24:04 EDT 2010, nemo@lsub.org wrote: > About 4 * 40 here (students) plus > our terminals and servers (4, 5 people, depends). > > On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com> wrote: > >> I'm glad there's another person out there with 4 machines running plan 9. > > > > Six here. Only three actually switched on at this moment. i have 3 cpu servers running (two for testing), 1 terminal, 1 ken fs, and 1 coraid storage unit. coraid runs 8 cpu servers in production, 3 ken fs file servers (one backup) and 3 coraid storage units. coraid also runs a large number of testing boxes. about 20 people run a terminal, 9vx or drawterm. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 16:00 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-24 16:05 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-24 19:18 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-03-24 22:34 ` Skip Tavakkolian 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2010-03-24 16:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Only two, one home and one work, Drawterm is usually active on another two or three Mac/PCs. -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 16:05 ` Steve Simon @ 2010-03-24 19:18 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-03-24 19:48 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-24 20:11 ` EBo 2010-03-24 22:34 ` Skip Tavakkolian 1 sibling, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave @ 2010-03-24 19:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs hello from 1 to 3. . .vmware or qemu (all of them).. . .i'm thinking in buying a modern PC in which i can run it natively...suggestions? gabi El 24/03/2010, a las 17:05, Steve Simon escribió: > Only two, one home and one work, > > Drawterm is usually active > on another two or three Mac/PCs. > > -Steve > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 19:18 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave @ 2010-03-24 19:48 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-24 20:17 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) 2010-04-09 19:36 ` Tom West 2010-03-24 20:11 ` EBo 1 sibling, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2010-03-24 19:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I recently built a machine using a dualcore atom card from supermicro its quick, draws very little power and is rock solid. email me for the details if you like. -Steve (Thanks to erik for 9atom bits). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 19:48 ` Steve Simon @ 2010-03-24 20:17 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) 2010-03-24 21:49 ` David du Colombier 2010-04-09 19:36 ` Tom West 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) @ 2010-03-24 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I have three native machines: Supermicro 5015A-H w/500GB IDE: fossil/venti/auth/dhcpd/tftpd Supermicro 5015A-H (diskless): CPU server Via EPIA-EK (1GHz C3 Eden-N processor) (diskless): terminal When I move back onto the boat I will be adding another CPU server with a whack of serial ports that will talk to all the comm and nav gear. For this I'm leaning towards a PC/104+ system; they're small, very low power, and have oodles of I/O expansion capability (like ADCs that can hook up to the engine sensors for things like water/oil pressure and temperature, tank levels, etc.). --lyndon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 20:17 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) @ 2010-03-24 21:49 ` David du Colombier 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: David du Colombier @ 2010-03-24 21:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I have the following Plan 9 File servers at home, with the following motherboards : - one Supermicro X7SLA-H, with 3 TB of storage, my new main fileserver, - two Intel S815EBM1, one is running 9grid.fr, other is used for testing. I have also many CPU servers and terminals. Most are old IBM machines (xSeries, ThinkCentre, ThinkPad). Of course, I have also a SheevaPlug and few iPAQ running Plan 9. At work, I am currently using four FabiaTech FX5624 as File or CPU server. They are running Plan 9 really fine. -- David du Colombier ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 19:48 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-24 20:17 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) @ 2010-04-09 19:36 ` Tom West 2010-04-09 20:20 ` EBo 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Tom West @ 2010-04-09 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I'm going to be buying something soon. I'd like to follow your lead. Thanks, Tom West On Mar 24, 2010, at 3:48 PM, Steve Simon wrote: > I recently built a machine using a dualcore atom card from supermicro > its quick, draws very little power and is rock solid. > > email me for the details if you like. > > -Steve > > (Thanks to erik for 9atom bits). > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-04-09 19:36 ` Tom West @ 2010-04-09 20:20 ` EBo 2010-04-10 2:26 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: EBo @ 2010-04-09 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Actually I would like to see this too. Maybe if you could post the specs to the list it would generally be helpful. > I'm going to be buying something soon. I'd like to follow your lead. > > I recently built a machine using a dualcore atom card from supermicro > > its quick, draws very little power and is rock solid. > > > > email me for the details if you like. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-04-09 20:20 ` EBo @ 2010-04-10 2:26 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-10 9:21 ` Gabriel Diaz 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-10 2:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ebo, 9fans On Fri Apr 9 16:21:35 EDT 2010, ebo@sandien.com wrote: > Actually I would like to see this too. Maybe if you could post the specs to > the list it would generally be helpful. here's what i've recently tested with 9atom: 1: (atom 330) supermicro x7sla-h motherboard supermicro 502l-200b chassis 2gb (2x1gb) memory and 2: (pineview d510, my terminal) supermicro x7spa-h motherboard same chassis 4gb (2x2gb sodimm) i recently tested a supermicro x8sil-f motherboard xeon x3440 2.53ghz processor 4gb (2x2) memory tested outside a chassis. this is really a fast setup. i was getting <3sec kernel builds (even compiling the myricom driver). i'm sure my slow fs was holding things back. cavets: 1. use 2gb dimms. there are strange requirements for multiple dimms per channel. 2. use a recent 9atom, otherwise the board can't find any pci devices. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-04-10 2:26 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-10 9:21 ` Gabriel Diaz 2010-04-10 12:54 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Gabriel Diaz @ 2010-04-10 9:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Hello erik, Saturday, April 10, 2010, 4:26:09 AM, you wrote: > On Fri Apr 9 16:21:35 EDT 2010, ebo@sandien.com wrote: >> Actually I would like to see this too. Maybe if you could post the specs to >> the list it would generally be helpful. > here's what i've recently tested with 9atom: > 1: (atom 330) > supermicro x7sla-h motherboard > supermicro 502l-200b chassis > 2gb (2x1gb) memory > and 2: (pineview d510, my terminal) > supermicro x7spa-h motherboard > same chassis > 4gb (2x2gb sodimm) > i recently tested a > supermicro x8sil-f motherboard > xeon x3440 2.53ghz processor > 4gb (2x2) memory > tested outside a chassis. > this is really a fast setup. i was getting <3sec > kernel builds (even compiling the myricom driver). > i'm sure my slow fs was holding things back. > cavets: > 1. use 2gb dimms. there are strange requirements > for multiple dimms per channel. > 2. use a recent 9atom, otherwise the board can't > find any pci devices. > - erik I have an ASUS P6T SE with a Core i7 and 4gb of ram and it can boot with 9atom.iso and install. But something is happening that prevent it to boot after the install (i got a register dump. may be something wrong happened when doing the format of 9fat :?). Network also works. And Vesa works at 1280x900x8 with an ati hd 5750. Monitor is samsung p2250. I'll report if i get it booting, but i think it should boot if was able to install and the live cd works, no? -- Best regards, Gabriel mailto:gdiaz@rejaa.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-04-10 9:21 ` Gabriel Diaz @ 2010-04-10 12:54 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-10 16:28 ` Gabriel Diaz 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-10 12:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I have an ASUS P6T SE with a Core i7 and 4gb of ram and it can boot > with 9atom.iso and install. But something is happening that prevent it > to boot after the install (i got a register dump. may be something > wrong happened when doing the format of 9fat :?). Network also works. > And Vesa works at 1280x900x8 with an ati hd 5750. Monitor is samsung p2250. > > I'll report if i get it booting, but i think it should boot if was able > to install and the live cd works, no? yes, that does sound like some sort of screw up. could you send - pci/lspci output, - a screenshot of the register dump, and - a sha1sum of the kernel (so i know which kernel you've got). - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-04-10 12:54 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-10 16:28 ` Gabriel Diaz 2010-04-10 19:38 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Gabriel Diaz @ 2010-04-10 16:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Hello erik, Saturday, April 10, 2010, 2:54:01 PM, you wrote: >> I have an ASUS P6T SE with a Core i7 and 4gb of ram and it can boot >> with 9atom.iso and install. But something is happening that prevent it >> to boot after the install (i got a register dump. may be something >> wrong happened when doing the format of 9fat :?). Network also works. >> And Vesa works at 1280x900x8 with an ati hd 5750. Monitor is samsung p2250. >> >> I'll report if i get it booting, but i think it should boot if was able >> to install and the live cd works, no? > yes, that does sound like some sort of screw up. > could you send > - pci/lspci output, > - a screenshot of the register dump, and > - a sha1sum of the kernel (so i know which kernel > you've got). > - erik This is the 9load panic (manually transcribed): PBS2. . . Plan 9 From Bell Labs no vga; serial console only cpu0: 2675MHz i7 loop 142773 apm ax=f000 cx=f000 dx=40 di=100 ebx=ffff esi=0 found 11 e820 entries flags=10a07 trap=e ecode=2 pc=0x800377ff ax 8002c391 bx 00000000 cx ffffffff dx 80047fac si 00000001 di 8004ad88 bp 80061c20 cs 0010 ds 008 es 0008 fd 0008 gs 0008 cr0 800000011 cr2 8942443 cr3 0000c000 panic: exception/interrupt 14 press almost any key. . . I installed again to see if i missed some odd behaviour the first time, but seems there are no noticeable error messages. Also the install speed is fine, there is no huge load of interrupts when installing and no missed interrupt messages. The interrupt 14 was associated with sdC and sdD. sdC0 is the sata dvd drive sdD0 is the sata hard disk sdE0 is the ide dvd drive from which i boot plan9, this is attached to some jmicron thing which claims to be ide to sata bridge When booting using the pccd.gz kernel, i get some missed irq messages, also a disk/format of the 9fat partition takes ages, and when completed, the 9fat partition is not readable. sha1 hash of 9pcflop.gz is D5F5E6F48DAA0D0FC604A1A9B27BD8B240673309 9pccd.gz is 85FEE0ADC5FE00BEEF8F448D5F6AE416B1844A9D I'll install a linux so i can send a lspci. slds. -- Best regards, Gabriel mailto:gdiaz@rejaa.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-04-10 16:28 ` Gabriel Diaz @ 2010-04-10 19:38 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-11 12:37 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-10 19:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > This is the 9load panic (manually transcribed): > > PBS2. . . Plan 9 From Bell Labs > no vga; serial console only > cpu0: 2675MHz i7 loop 142773 > apm ax=f000 cx=f000 dx=40 di=100 ebx=ffff esi=0 > found 11 e820 entries > flags=10a07 trap=e ecode=2 pc=0x800377ff > ax 8002c391 bx 00000000 cx ffffffff dx 80047fac > si 00000001 di 8004ad88 bp 80061c20 > cs 0010 ds 008 es 0008 fd 0008 gs 0008 > cr0 800000011 cr2 8942443 cr3 0000c000 > panic: exception/interrupt 14 > press almost any key. . . > > I installed again to see if i missed some odd behaviour the first > time, but seems there are no noticeable error messages. Also the > install speed is fine, there is no huge load of interrupts when > installing and no missed interrupt messages. > > The interrupt 14 was associated with sdC and sdD. is this a freshly download cd? some changes were made apr 3 that should fix this problem. this line is the tipoff: > no vga; serial console only - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-04-10 19:38 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-11 12:37 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-04-11 15:36 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-11 15:37 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave @ 2010-04-11 12:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs hello I have it booting now. I did a disk/format using the 9load from the cdboot image, and the 9pcf kernel from the iso. Now i'm getting messages about caught missed ide interrupts. . .and this slows down disk operations a lot, i guess first fossil dump to venti will take ages. now i'm stuck at version...time line. . . .i'll try if enabling dma could solve anything, but not sure when i will be able to access the console. . . can i enable dma from the plan9.ini? thanks. gabi El 10/04/2010, a las 21:38, erik quanstrom escribió: >> This is the 9load panic (manually transcribed): >> >> PBS2. . . Plan 9 From Bell Labs >> no vga; serial console only >> cpu0: 2675MHz i7 loop 142773 >> apm ax=f000 cx=f000 dx=40 di=100 ebx=ffff esi=0 >> found 11 e820 entries >> flags=10a07 trap=e ecode=2 pc=0x800377ff >> ax 8002c391 bx 00000000 cx ffffffff dx 80047fac >> si 00000001 di 8004ad88 bp 80061c20 >> cs 0010 ds 008 es 0008 fd 0008 gs 0008 >> cr0 800000011 cr2 8942443 cr3 0000c000 >> panic: exception/interrupt 14 >> press almost any key. . . >> >> I installed again to see if i missed some odd behaviour the first >> time, but seems there are no noticeable error messages. Also the >> install speed is fine, there is no huge load of interrupts when >> installing and no missed interrupt messages. >> >> The interrupt 14 was associated with sdC and sdD. > > is this a freshly download cd? some changes were made > apr 3 that should fix this problem. this line is the tipoff: > >> no vga; serial console only > > - erik > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-04-11 12:37 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave @ 2010-04-11 15:36 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-11 15:37 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-11 15:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I have it booting now. I did a disk/format using the 9load from > the cdboot image, and the 9pcf kernel from the iso. > Now i'm getting messages about caught missed ide interrupts. . . > and this slows down disk operations a lot, i guess first fossil dump > to venti will take ages. now i'm stuck at version...time line. . . .i'll > try if enabling dma could solve anything, but not sure when i will > be able to access the console. . . > can i enable dma from the plan9.ini? sorry about the "missed ide interrupts" botch. it seemed better than not booting at all. you can set "*sdXXdma=on" in your plan9.ini. but i don't think that's the real problem. i'd guess that your southbridge isn't in the list of routable southbridges and needs to be added. but in addition, i would do the following 1. remove the "*nomp=1" line from plan9.ini 2. switch to ahci mode. (assuming this is indeed a sata drive that is connected to the ich sata ports and not some marvell or sis addon chip.) 3. send your pci output offline. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-04-11 12:37 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-04-11 15:36 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-11 15:37 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-04-11 15:40 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave @ 2010-04-11 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs hello Seems I fell again in the bios ahci set up trap. Checking the BIOS options seems it was in Enhaced Ide mode instead of Enhaced AHCI mode. Now the iso works perfectly. For those of you looking for a "modern" PC to run plan9, this is what i have: * asus P6T SE * Core i7 (4 core works) * 4GB DDR3 RAM * ati hd5750 (works in vesa 1280x960x8) * hard disk WD caviar 300 GB * realtek GB network (works) 9atom from this weekend boots and install with no problems setting up AHCI mode first. slds. gabi El 11/04/2010, a las 14:37, Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave escribió: > hello > > I have it booting now. I did a disk/format using the 9load from the cdboot image, and the 9pcf kernel from the iso. > > Now i'm getting messages about caught missed ide interrupts. . .and this slows down disk operations a lot, i guess first fossil dump to venti will take ages. > > now i'm stuck at version...time line. . . .i'll try if enabling dma could solve anything, but not sure when i will be able to access the console. . . > > can i enable dma from the plan9.ini? > > thanks. > > gabi > > > El 10/04/2010, a las 21:38, erik quanstrom escribió: > >>> This is the 9load panic (manually transcribed): >>> >>> PBS2. . . Plan 9 From Bell Labs >>> no vga; serial console only >>> cpu0: 2675MHz i7 loop 142773 >>> apm ax=f000 cx=f000 dx=40 di=100 ebx=ffff esi=0 >>> found 11 e820 entries >>> flags=10a07 trap=e ecode=2 pc=0x800377ff >>> ax 8002c391 bx 00000000 cx ffffffff dx 80047fac >>> si 00000001 di 8004ad88 bp 80061c20 >>> cs 0010 ds 008 es 0008 fd 0008 gs 0008 >>> cr0 800000011 cr2 8942443 cr3 0000c000 >>> panic: exception/interrupt 14 >>> press almost any key. . . >>> >>> I installed again to see if i missed some odd behaviour the first >>> time, but seems there are no noticeable error messages. Also the >>> install speed is fine, there is no huge load of interrupts when >>> installing and no missed interrupt messages. >>> >>> The interrupt 14 was associated with sdC and sdD. >> >> is this a freshly download cd? some changes were made >> apr 3 that should fix this problem. this line is the tipoff: >> >>> no vga; serial console only >> >> - erik >> > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-04-11 15:37 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave @ 2010-04-11 15:40 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-11 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > 9atom from this weekend boots and install with no problems setting up AHCI mode first. > please send your pci output anyway. ide should work. even if *nomp=1 so to do that we'll need to do the pcirouting stuff, and for that we need a southbridge pci vid/did. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 19:18 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-03-24 19:48 ` Steve Simon @ 2010-03-24 20:11 ` EBo 2010-03-24 20:19 ` John Floren 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: EBo @ 2010-03-24 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs, Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave > from 1 to 3. . .vmware or qemu (all of them).. . .i'm thinking > in buying a modern PC in which i can run it natively...suggestions? While I have not bought one yet (money's a little tight at the moment), take a look at http://open-pc.com/. At least since everything is open, even if the device drivers are not available there is still a chance <grumble, grumble... #!@#!$! BROADCOM $#@*!@(*&$> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 20:11 ` EBo @ 2010-03-24 20:19 ` John Floren 2010-03-24 20:41 ` erik quanstrom ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: John Floren @ 2010-03-24 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ebo, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 4:11 PM, EBo <ebo@sandien.com> wrote: > >> from 1 to 3. . .vmware or qemu (all of them).. . .i'm thinking >> in buying a modern PC in which i can run it natively...suggestions? > > While I have not bought one yet (money's a little tight at the moment), take a > look at http://open-pc.com/. At least since everything is open, even if the > device drivers are not available there is still a chance <grumble, grumble... > #!@#!$! BROADCOM $#@*!@(*&$> > I think for 360 Euro, I could build a better, Plan 9-compatible machine and *not* donate money to the KDE project while I'm at it. Should there be something on the wiki/elsewhere where people can post the specs of computers they are using and what hardware works/doesn't work? The supported hardware list tends to be a bit vague; I'd like something where I could look at a list of components for an entire Plan 9 compatible machine, or see if anybody else is still using component X. John ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 20:19 ` John Floren @ 2010-03-24 20:41 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 1:21 ` Jacob Todd ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-24 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Should there be something on the wiki/elsewhere where people can post > the specs of computers they are using and what hardware works/doesn't > work? The supported hardware list tends to be a bit vague; I'd like > something where I could look at a list of components for an entire > Plan 9 compatible machine, or see if anybody else is still using > component X. i believe a few complete machines *have* been posted. i know i mentioned two. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 20:19 ` John Floren 2010-03-24 20:41 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 1:21 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-25 1:35 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 1:52 ` Maht 2010-03-25 2:05 ` Federico G. Benavento 3 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-25 1:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 919 bytes --] On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 04:19:59PM -0400, John Floren wrote: > I think for 360 Euro, I could build a better, Plan 9-compatible > machine and *not* donate money to the KDE project while I'm at it. > > Should there be something on the wiki/elsewhere where people can post > the specs of computers they are using and what hardware works/doesn't > work? The supported hardware list tends to be a bit vague; I'd like > something where I could look at a list of components for an entire > Plan 9 compatible machine, or see if anybody else is still using > component X. > > John > My Dell Inspiron 1000 mostly works. I haven't tested the PC Card slot. Audio most likely doesn't work, and the sis900 driver doesn't work and I haven't tested the other sis900 driver from here[1]. Everything else is fine. [1]http://mirtchovski.com/lanlp9/sis900/index.html -- I am a man who does not exist for others. [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 205 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 1:21 ` Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-25 1:35 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 11:15 ` Jacob Todd 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 1:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > My Dell Inspiron 1000 mostly works. I haven't tested the PC Card slot. Audio > most likely doesn't work, and the sis900 driver doesn't work and I haven't > tested the other sis900 driver from here[1]. Everything else is fine. could you define "doesn't work"? any errors? - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 1:35 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 11:15 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-25 13:25 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 14:10 ` Steve Simon 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-25 11:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 362 bytes --] On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:35:39PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: > could you define "doesn't work"? any errors? > > - erik > When I boot plan 9, the message `probing ether' is printed and then `auto neg something' is printed a second or two after that. I can find out what the actual message is later. -- I am a man who does not exist for others. [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 205 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 11:15 ` Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-25 13:25 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 10:28 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-25 14:10 ` Steve Simon 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > When I boot plan 9, the message `probing ether' is printed and then `auto neg > something' is printed a second or two after that. I can find out what the actual > message is later. the output of /n/sources/contrib/quanstro/sosether would be useful. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 13:25 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 10:28 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-25 15:43 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-25 10:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1668 bytes --] On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 09:25:19AM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: > the output of /n/sources/contrib/quanstro/sosether > would be useful. > > - erik > pci 0.4.0: net 02.00.00 1039/0900 4 0:00001801 256 1:e4003000 4096 interfaces kmesg: Plan 9 E820: 00000000 0009f400 memory E820: 0009f400 000a0000 reserved E820: 000dc000 00100000 reserved E820: 00100000 0ddf0000 memory E820: 0ddf0000 0ddff000 acpi reclaim E820: 0ddff000 0de00000 acpi nvs E820: 0de00000 0e000000 reserved E820: 0e000000 10000000 reserved E820: fec00000 fec10000 reserved E820: fee00000 fee01000 reserved E820: fff80000 100000000 reserved 126 holes free 00019000 0009f000 548864 0040f000 05ae6000 91058176 91607040 bytes free cpu0: 2191MHz GenuineIntel PentiumIV/Xeon (cpuid: AX 0x0F29 DX 0xBFEBFBFF) ELCR: 06B8 #y0: 2 slot Intel 82365SL: port 0x3E0 irq 5 ns83815: auto neg timed out #u/usb/ep1.0: ohci: port 0xE0000000 irq 9 #u/usb/ep2.0: ohci: port 0xE0001000 irq 10 #u/usb/ep3.0: ehci: port 0xE0002000 irq 3 222M memory: 91M kernel data, 131M user, 502M swap usbd...usb/disk... root is from (tcp, local)[local!#S/sdC0/fossil]: user[none]: jake time... fossil(#S/sdC0/fossil)...version...time... init: starting /bin/rc The 'ns83815: autneg timed out' was the message being printed. I've also noticed that the man page for plan9.ini(8), it says >On the SiS controllers, the Ethernet address is not >detected properly; specify it with an ea= attribute. Is ea= supposed to be set to the actual ip address (the man page says physical network adress)? If so that's probably my problem. -- I am a man who does not exist for others. [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 205 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 10:28 ` Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-25 15:43 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 13:37 ` Jacob Todd 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 15:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I've also noticed that the man page for plan9.ini(8), it says > >On the SiS controllers, the Ethernet address is not > >detected properly; specify it with an ea= attribute. > > Is ea= supposed to be set to the actual ip address (the man page says physical > network adress)? If so that's probably my problem. ea is supposed to be an ethernet address. ethernet addresses have the format ea=112233445566 where 1-6 are *lowercase* hex digits. the first byte & 0x80 should be 0. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 15:43 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 13:37 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-25 18:58 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-25 13:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 727 bytes --] On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:43:36AM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: > > I've also noticed that the man page for plan9.ini(8), it says > > >On the SiS controllers, the Ethernet address is not > > >detected properly; specify it with an ea= attribute. > > > > Is ea= supposed to be set to the actual ip address (the man page says physical > > network adress)? If so that's probably my problem. > > ea is supposed to be an ethernet address. ethernet > addresses have the format > ea=112233445566 > where 1-6 are *lowercase* hex digits. the first > byte & 0x80 should be 0. > > - erik > Sorry for my ignorance, but how would I find out the ethernet address(es)? -- I am a man who does not exist for others. [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 205 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 13:37 ` Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-25 18:58 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 20:04 ` Steve Simon 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > > > Is ea= supposed to be set to the actual ip address (the man page says physical > > > network adress)? If so that's probably my problem. > > > > ea is supposed to be an ethernet address. ethernet > > addresses have the format > > ea=112233445566 > > where 1-6 are *lowercase* hex digits. the first > > byte & 0x80 should be 0. > > > > - erik > > > Sorry for my ignorance, but how would I find out the ethernet address(es)? the hardware is supposed to know it. if it doesn't the hardware is having trouble talking to its eeprom/flash. in this case, you can get by by making one up. though officially, they're allocated in blocks, c.f. etheroui(1), wwnoui(1) — contrib quanstro/oui. the database is in /lib/oui. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 18:58 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 20:04 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-25 22:34 ` Jorden Mauro 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2010-03-25 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Sorry for my ignorance, but how would I find out the ethernet address(es)? A long shot, somtimes its printed on the card (PCI or PCMCIA), but othertimes it is not. The important fact is that you must not use the same address as any other device on the same physical network. -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 20:04 ` Steve Simon @ 2010-03-25 22:34 ` Jorden Mauro 2010-03-26 6:00 ` Federico G. Benavento 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Jorden Mauro @ 2010-03-25 22:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Someone should put this whole thread on the wiki ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 22:34 ` Jorden Mauro @ 2010-03-26 6:00 ` Federico G. Benavento 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Federico G. Benavento @ 2010-03-26 6:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs if the ethernet address is broken you can try to see if the nic is still usable by setting promiscuous mode on... I had the a problem years ago with andrey's sis900 driver (the one in the distribution didn't work with my nic), when I changed from a terminal to a 9pcf kernel it stopped working! somehow it wasn't getting the eaddr right, after some debugging I noticed that the distribution driver worked, but only when snoopy was running... I'm a network ignorant and I was even more ignorant then, so I didn't notice that snoopy reported 0xFFFFFFF or something for address and it worked because snoopy turns promiscuous mode on. so I checked the lunixes driver and found out how to write the ether address correctly to the device and got it working, but ironically a day later geoff pushed his version of the driver for kenfs which was a merge of andrey's and charles' driver... -- Federico G. Benavento ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-25 11:15 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-25 13:25 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 14:10 ` Steve Simon 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2010-03-25 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > When I boot plan 9, the message `probing ether' is printed and then `auto neg > something' is printed a second or two after that. I can find out what the actual > message is later. If the message is printed by the kernel rather than 9load you can find it by typing: cat /dev/kmesg -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 20:19 ` John Floren 2010-03-24 20:41 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 1:21 ` Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-25 1:52 ` Maht 2010-03-25 2:05 ` Federico G. Benavento 3 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Maht @ 2010-03-25 1:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > > I'd like > something where I could look at a list of components for an entire > Plan 9 compatible machine, or see if anybody else is still using > component X. > > John > > If it's been thrown in the trash, it should work great! I mean that as a slur against the upgrade cycle rather than Plan9, I have a pile of PIIIs that run Plan9 great. I've had problems with Qemu recently, I went back to v. 0.8 That said, I've used Proxmox with great success on modern VT enabled chips http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Main_Page It lets you run some OSes in VT mode alongside Qemu instances. The virtual networking is brill too, each VM gets it's own IP like it was a machine on the LAN, no messing about with port redirection. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 20:19 ` John Floren ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-03-25 1:52 ` Maht @ 2010-03-25 2:05 ` Federico G. Benavento 3 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Federico G. Benavento @ 2010-03-25 2:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 1 MSI G31TM-P21 /Q8200/500GB cpu/everything server (the full specs are somewhere in the list) + a constant drawterm running on win laptop -- Federico G. Benavento ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 16:05 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-24 19:18 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave @ 2010-03-24 22:34 ` Skip Tavakkolian 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2010-03-24 22:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans at 9netics and rangboom (different locations), there are 4 cpus, 2 kenfs, multiple terms (vmware) and drawterm. for a project at a client's site, there are: 7+ cpus (sheevaplug, laptops), a cpu+auth+fossil/venti server and term (vmware) and drawterm. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 15:17 ` Richard Miller 2010-03-24 15:22 ` Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2010-03-24 15:23 ` andrey mirtchovski 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2010-03-24 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 64 at one time. 0 now. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-24 14:56 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-24 15:17 ` Richard Miller @ 2010-03-28 14:32 ` Georg Lehner 2010-03-28 14:39 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-28 14:44 ` maht 1 sibling, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Georg Lehner @ 2010-03-28 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs David Leimbach wrote: > I'm glad there's another person out there with 4 machines running plan > 9. That's really great. I never got beyond 2 :-) > [..] file/auth/cpu server at home: DFI-ACP Board: G5C100-N, Intel 945GM ICH7M installable only eriks 9atom.iso file/auth/cpu server at work: some inherited development workstation, spec currently not available. When/if i get Linux and Windows to work seemlessly with the fileserver i will possibly have a permanently running drawterm. Until today i'm just a stubborn believer in Plan9. Real world experience with this system is, that nothing else works (out of the box) and nobody else uses it, besides people working with and for Plan9 just for the sake of it. Regards, Jorge-Le�n P.S.: Though the interface is really brilliant, it does not work out well for a lefty with a german keyboard layout :-/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-28 14:32 ` Georg Lehner @ 2010-03-28 14:39 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-29 19:57 ` Georg Lehner 2010-03-28 14:44 ` maht 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-28 14:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Until today i'm just a stubborn believer in Plan9. Real world experience > with this system is, that nothing else works (out of the box) and nobody else uses it, > besides people working with and for Plan9 just for the sake of it. speaking only for myself: http://www.coraid.com. thousands of installed systems. > P.S.: Though the interface is really brilliant, it does not work out > well for a lefty with a > german keyboard layout :-/ you can change the layout: kbmap(1), kbin(3), kbmap(3). - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-28 14:39 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-29 19:57 ` Georg Lehner 2010-03-29 20:21 ` michael block 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Georg Lehner @ 2010-03-29 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs erik quanstrom wrote: >> P.S.: Though the interface is really brilliant, it does not work out >> well for a lefty with a >> german keyboard layout :-/ >> > > you can change the layout: > > kbmap(1), kbin(3), kbmap(3). > > - erik Ok, i know kbmap :) This 'leftys are poor people' feeling comes from MS-Windows and their GUI-philosophy-follower which define Ctrl+V, Ctrl+X and Ctrl+C as shortcuts. These are on the left side of the keyboard, so i have to move the left hand between keyboard and mouse frustratingly often. I apologize for blaming rio et al for something that they never have done... Would right/left-handed dvorak be a good choice to keep one hand on the mouse and the other on the keyboard? Best Regards, Jorge-Le�n ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-29 19:57 ` Georg Lehner @ 2010-03-29 20:21 ` michael block 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: michael block @ 2010-03-29 20:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 13:57, Georg Lehner <jorge-plan9@magma.com.ni> wrote: > Would right/left-handed dvorak be a good choice to keep one hand on the > mouse and the other on the keyboard? it works alright for web browsing or if you're just typing english (and probably german as well), but you really have to stretch for non-alphabetic keys so it's less suitable for programming or anything but simple rc commands. i mapped many of the special keys to the numpad, but that might not work so well for a lefty ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-28 14:32 ` Georg Lehner 2010-03-28 14:39 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-28 14:44 ` maht 2010-03-29 20:07 ` Georg Lehner 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: maht @ 2010-03-28 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > Until today i'm just a stubborn believer in Plan9. Real world > experience with this system > is, that nothing else works (out of the box) and nobody else uses it, > besides people working > with and for Plan9 just for the sake of it. Sorry to hear you think like that. I've been using Plan9 for about 10 years as my day to day work environment for non-Plan9 based coding, I can't remember anything that hasn't worked aside from kit without drivers. A shame that the tool doesn't suit your needs but blaming the tool is a bit much. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-28 14:44 ` maht @ 2010-03-29 20:07 ` Georg Lehner 2010-03-29 20:16 ` erik quanstrom ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Georg Lehner @ 2010-03-29 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs maht wrote: > >> Until today i'm just a stubborn believer in Plan9. Real world >> experience with this system >> is, that nothing else works (out of the box) and nobody else uses it, >> besides people working >> with and for Plan9 just for the sake of it. > Sorry to hear you think like that. I've been using Plan9 for about 10 > years as my day to day work environment for non-Plan9 based coding, I > can't remember anything that hasn't worked aside from kit without > drivers. Would you be willing to elaborate about your working setups as far as non-Plan9 based coding is concerned. I would also be happy to hear about how non-coding activities are typically handled by using a Plan9 system. The recent survey of how Plan9 inventors use Plan9 today (it seems mostly they don't) has cast some shadow of doubt on me that day to day computer work is ideally done on a Plan9 terminal. Regards, Jorge-Le�n ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-29 20:07 ` Georg Lehner @ 2010-03-29 20:16 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-29 22:38 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-29 20:52 ` maht 2010-03-29 20:58 ` Corey 2 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-29 20:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I would also be happy to hear about how non-coding activities are > typically handled by using a Plan9 system. what non-coding activities? ☺ - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-29 20:16 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-29 22:38 ` Patrick Kelly 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-29 22:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mar 29, 2010, at 4:16 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: >> I would also be happy to hear about how non-coding activities are >> typically handled by using a Plan9 system. > > what non-coding activities? ☺ Surely you have played mahjongg at least once! > - erik > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-29 20:07 ` Georg Lehner 2010-03-29 20:16 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-29 20:52 ` maht 2010-03-29 20:58 ` Corey 2 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: maht @ 2010-03-29 20:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 29/03/2010 21:07, Georg Lehner wrote: > maht wrote: >> >>> Until today i'm just a stubborn believer in Plan9. Real world >>> experience with this system >>> is, that nothing else works (out of the box) and nobody else uses >>> it, besides people working >>> with and for Plan9 just for the sake of it. >> Sorry to hear you think like that. I've been using Plan9 for about 10 >> years as my day to day work environment for non-Plan9 based coding, I >> can't remember anything that hasn't worked aside from kit without >> drivers. > Would you be willing to elaborate about your working setups as far as > non-Plan9 based coding is > concerned. > > I edit text, sometimes I run programs over it and it is changed, I write these programs. The environment of Plan9 is very much suited to this activity. I use it to control the activities of the Windows / Linux / *BSD / OSX machines in my empire. I connect them together with 9p tunnelled over ssh, Plan9 <> Plan9, SMB, bit of ftp, AoE. I jump around through firewalls and other tunnels all for the precious 9p, the Queen of Kings. I sit at a non Plan9 terminal and wonder how the savages manage. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-29 20:07 ` Georg Lehner 2010-03-29 20:16 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-29 20:52 ` maht @ 2010-03-29 20:58 ` Corey 2010-03-29 20:57 ` ron minnich 2010-03-29 21:09 ` erik quanstrom 2 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Corey @ 2010-03-29 20:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Monday 29 March 2010 13:07:23 Georg Lehner wrote: > The recent survey of how Plan9 inventors use Plan9 today (it seems > mostly they don't) has cast some shadow of doubt on me that day > to day computer work is ideally done on a Plan9 terminal. > Day to day computer work will not generally be done on a Plan9 terminal until Glenda finally overcomes her profoundly crippling case of automysophobia. Unfortunately however, it appears that she is surrounded by folks who are single-mindedly determined to keep her inside a sterile plastic bubble - according to these people, linux and gnu are, apparently, the boogey men that will certainly 'get her' should she ever leave the confines of the artificial cocoon that's been built up around her. 9fans: keep on worrying over 'contamination' from the real world, in the mean time, Plan 9 is a precious little snowflake that is neigh useless outside of an extraordinarily narrow variety of use cases: On Monday 29 March 2010 13:16:59 erik quanstrom wrote: > > I would also be happy to hear about how non-coding activities are > > typically handled by using a Plan9 system. > > what non-coding activities? ☺ > Plan9: an old-school IDE and a file server wrapped into one. The mind reels. Sometimes, less is _not_ more. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-29 20:58 ` Corey @ 2010-03-29 20:57 ` ron minnich 2010-03-29 21:09 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2010-03-29 20:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:58 PM, Corey <corey@bitworthy.net> wrote: > Plan9: an old-school IDE and a file server wrapped into one. > > The mind reels. > > Sometimes, less is _not_ more. > > OK, that's it, we're not going to let you use it any more. :-) ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] native install 2010-03-29 20:58 ` Corey 2010-03-29 20:57 ` ron minnich @ 2010-03-29 21:09 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-30 0:20 ` [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) Corey 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-29 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: corey, 9fans > Day to day computer work will not generally be done on a Plan9 terminal until > Glenda finally overcomes her profoundly crippling case of automysophobia. > > Unfortunately however, it appears that she is surrounded by folks who are > single-mindedly determined to keep her inside a sterile plastic bubble - > according to these people, linux and gnu are, apparently, the boogey men > that will certainly 'get her' should she ever leave the confines of the > artificial cocoon that's been built up around her. unless you're going to do something about this, you're just trolling. imho, it just doesn't make sense to add this kind of stuff to plan 9. it dimishes something very valuable in plan 9 (simplicity) and we already know where to get gnu stuff. > On Monday 29 March 2010 13:16:59 erik quanstrom wrote: > > > I would also be happy to hear about how non-coding activities are > > > typically handled by using a Plan9 system. > > > > what non-coding activities? ☺ > > > > Plan9: an old-school IDE and a file server wrapped into one. > > The mind reels. > > Sometimes, less is _not_ more. i find plan 9 to be a very effective environment. i use it all day, every day. if you don't, the logical choices are to (a) do something about it or (b) do something else. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-29 21:09 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-30 0:20 ` Corey 2010-03-30 0:24 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-30 2:11 ` Iruata Souza 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Corey @ 2010-03-30 0:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Monday 29 March 2010 14:09:32 erik quanstrom wrote: > > Day to day computer work will not generally be done on a Plan9 terminal > > until Glenda finally overcomes her profoundly crippling case of > > automysophobia. > > <snip> > > unless you're going to do something about this, you're just > trolling. > (c8= Heheh... when it's critical of other existing projects and systems - which goes on all the time here - it's o.k.; but when it's critical of plan 9, it's known as 'trolling'. <wink> > i find plan 9 to be a very effective environment. i use it > all day, every day. > > if you don't, the logical choices are to (a) do something about > it or (b) do something else. > In any given social environment, communicating dissatisfaction of the status quo is often the logical first step towards choices (a) and/or (b) - due to the fact that going off on one's own to work alone in a vacuum on a major undertaking is generally recognized as an inherently ill-fated strategy. > imho, it just doesn't make sense to add this kind of stuff > to plan 9. it dimishes something very valuable in plan 9 > (simplicity) and we already know where to get gnu stuff. > Understood, and appreciated. I guess the situation is that there appears to be plenty of people who _imagine_ something "very valuable" in seeing the base Plan 9 concepts and idioms being applied within a different context beyond that of rigorous 'radical purity and simplicity' - yet after 15 years, there still is no experimental general purpose Plan 9 distributions/projects under way. Is it that the core Plan 9 design concepts[1] are in fact inappropriate or uninteresting for anything beyond that which Plan 9 currently provides? The answer continues to blow in the wind. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs#Design_concepts ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 0:20 ` [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) Corey @ 2010-03-30 0:24 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-30 1:21 ` Corey 2010-03-30 2:11 ` Iruata Souza 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-30 0:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: corey, 9fans > Heheh... when it's critical of other existing projects and systems - > which goes on all the time here - it's o.k.; but when it's critical of > plan 9, it's known as 'trolling'. > > <wink> > actually, yes. > > i find plan 9 to be a very effective environment. i use it > > all day, every day. > > > > if you don't, the logical choices are to (a) do something about > > it or (b) do something else. > > > > In any given social environment, communicating dissatisfaction of > the status quo is often the logical first step towards choices (a) > and/or (b) - due to the fact that going off on one's own to work > alone in a vacuum on a major undertaking is generally recognized > as an inherently ill-fated strategy. except that these same arguments have been going on for as long as i have read this list and no one has done anything about it. after 15+ years, i think it's fair to ask "where's the beef?" - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 0:24 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-30 1:21 ` Corey 2010-03-30 2:02 ` Iruata Souza ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Corey @ 2010-03-30 1:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Monday 29 March 2010 17:24:08 erik quanstrom wrote: > > In any given social environment, communicating dissatisfaction of > > the status quo is often the logical first step towards choices (a) > > and/or (b) - due to the fact that going off on one's own to work > > alone in a vacuum on a major undertaking is generally recognized > > as an inherently ill-fated strategy. > > except that these same arguments have been going on for as long > as i have read this list and no one has done anything about it. > after 15+ years, i think it's fair to ask "where's the beef?" > "Where's the beef?" is certainly a fair and reasonable thing to ask. What I'm wondering, however, is "_what's_ the beef?" As you said, these arguments have indeed been going on for some time - so, why only talk and no action? It's weird. I can't help but wonder: where's the crux of the inertia? Are the core Plan 9 design concepts in fact ineffective or unsuitable for building a general purpose computing environment? I find that very hard to believe - but there's over 15 years of evidence which seems to imply just that. No one's willing to spearhead a "General Purpose 9" experiment, and no one's interested in collaborating on and contributing to such a project? "If you want [general purpose], you know where to get it." seems to be the period that ends all such discussion. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 1:21 ` Corey @ 2010-03-30 2:02 ` Iruata Souza 2010-03-30 2:07 ` Jacob Todd ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Iruata Souza @ 2010-03-30 2:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Corey <corey@bitworthy.net> wrote: > On Monday 29 March 2010 17:24:08 erik quanstrom wrote: >> > In any given social environment, communicating dissatisfaction of >> > the status quo is often the logical first step towards choices (a) >> > and/or (b) - due to the fact that going off on one's own to work >> > alone in a vacuum on a major undertaking is generally recognized >> > as an inherently ill-fated strategy. >> >> except that these same arguments have been going on for as long >> as i have read this list and no one has done anything about it. >> after 15+ years, i think it's fair to ask "where's the beef?" >> > > "Where's the beef?" is certainly a fair and reasonable thing to ask. > > What I'm wondering, however, is "_what's_ the beef?" > > As you said, these arguments have indeed been going on for some > time - so, why only talk and no action? It's weird. > > I can't help but wonder: where's the crux of the inertia? > > Are the core Plan 9 design concepts in fact ineffective or unsuitable for > building a general purpose computing environment? > > I find that very hard to believe - but there's over 15 years of evidence > which seems to imply just that. > > No one's willing to spearhead a "General Purpose 9" experiment, and no > one's interested in collaborating on and contributing to such a project? would you invite us for that experiment or keep talking, talking, talking... and talking? > "If you want [general purpose], you know where to get it." seems to > be the period that ends all such discussion. > a bunch of special purpose crap put together does not make a general purpose one. iru ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 1:21 ` Corey 2010-03-30 2:02 ` Iruata Souza @ 2010-03-30 2:07 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-30 6:41 ` Corey 2010-03-30 2:17 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-30 9:28 ` [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) Steve Simon 3 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-30 2:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 870 bytes --] On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 06:21:54PM -0700, Corey wrote: > Are the core Plan 9 design concepts in fact ineffective or unsuitable for > building a general purpose computing environment? > > I find that very hard to believe - but there's over 15 years of evidence > which seems to imply just that. There's fifteen years of evidence of people *not* applying the core Plan 9 concepts to anything. Not applying a concept isn't proof it's ``ineffective'' or ``unsuitable''. > > No one's willing to spearhead a "General Purpose 9" experiment, and no > one's interested in collaborating on and contributing to such a project? It would seem not. We're happy here, where things are sane. > > "If you want [general purpose], you know where to get it." seems to > be the period that ends all such discussion. > -- I am a man who does not exist for others. [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 205 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 2:07 ` Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-30 6:41 ` Corey 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Corey @ 2010-03-30 6:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Multiple responses following, so that I'm not accused of spamming the list. On Monday 29 March 2010 19:02:23 Iruata Souza wrote: > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Corey <corey@bitworthy.net> wrote: <snip> > > No one's willing to spearhead a "General Purpose 9" experiment, and no > > one's interested in collaborating on and contributing to such a project? > <raises hand> I'm interested. My qualifications are limited, but I'd be willing to find a way to contribute. But first I'd want to know exactly what was meant by "general purpose", and what's there to gain from it. I'd also want to know where to begin, and what technical challenges and architectural changes would be involved. If it's simply about porting gtk, firefox and open office to plan 9, then forget it. Finally, it's important to establish that this project, whatever it's called, does not aim to somehow infect Plan 9 proper. Unfortunately, that's precisely the sort of initial hypothetically-scoped, collaborative bootstrap process which invariably elicits characteristic 9fans quips of the usual fare: "talk, talk, talk - where's the code?", "if you want X you know where to get it.", "Plan 9 _is_ a general purpose o.s.", et cetera. On Monday 29 March 2010 19:07:07 Jacob Todd wrote: > > No one's willing to spearhead a "General Purpose 9" experiment, and no > > one's interested in collaborating on and contributing to such a project? > > It would seem not. We're happy here, where things are sane. > Where things are sane. A "general purpose" graphical operating environment built on the Plan 9 kernel and user space, implemented using the intrinsic Plan 9 conceptual models - is inherently insane? Insane, or impossible? Who knows. Such an effort can't even be properly discussed here - let alone leave the starting gates. On Monday 29 March 2010 19:17:03 Patrick Kelly wrote: > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Corey <corey@bitworthy.net> wrote: > > Are the core Plan 9 design concepts in fact ineffective or > > unsuitable for building a general purpose computing environment? > > Should that statement be valid, the creation of UNIX in the first > place is an utter pointless failure; are you willing to say that? <snip> > Plan 9 took that change to the next level, so you'd be slanderiIng us > even more. > Plan 9 took it to the next level... and then... what happened after that? > Plan 9 is general purpose. There's no reason you can write software > for, say, office suites, graphics edition, audio editing, MIDI, > gaming, or anything else. We just don't have the need for it. > "We" don't have the need for those things - because they are already fulfilled via other operating systems. Plan 9 is, effectively, a purely auxiliary OS - by design. And we like it that way. We'd rather use *nix, windows or a mac to do those things than to use Plan 9 for them. But, as we're using other platforms to do all those things we can't do under Plan 9, we scornfully complain about how naively designed and horribly bloated those programs are - yet after fifteen years, "we" still fail to prove how those things could be better implemented under the superior Plan 9 approach. And we like it that way: distributing files, and programming kenc in rio with acme under 9term - we feel that Plan 9 has successfully reached its zenith. On Monday 29 March 2010 20:10:59 Rahul Murmuria wrote: > Well, most of Plan 9's ideas have been trickling down into "general > purpose" operating systems for years! You're implying that, via the "trickle down" process, Plan 9 will become completely obviated. Which Plan 9 ideas would you say have not yet been fully and properly integrated into other operating systems? And why haven't they? > I don't see what others here claiming failure of Plan 9 are referring to. > (for the record, I'm not claiming that Plan 9 has failed - quite the contrary) > In order to bring new technology to mass consumption, you don't bring > the masses to drive the formula 1 race car... you instead try and > adapt the new concepts into the Toyotas and Hondas... > Or you try and adapt the formula 1 race car (or the Jeep, or the HMMWV...) into something better suited for a somewhat more generic market/use-case. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 1:21 ` Corey 2010-03-30 2:02 ` Iruata Souza 2010-03-30 2:07 ` Jacob Todd @ 2010-03-30 2:17 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-30 3:10 ` Rahul Murmuria 2010-03-30 18:23 ` Jack Johnson 2010-03-30 9:28 ` [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) Steve Simon 3 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-30 2:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs >> > "Where's the beef?" is certainly a fair and reasonable thing to ask. I got hungry and ate it. > What I'm wondering, however, is "_what's_ the beef?" Beef comes from the cow. > As you said, these arguments have indeed been going on for some > time - so, why only talk and no action? It's weird. Those of you who desire features haven't implemented anything. Those of us who use Plan 9 or even just it's tools don't find a need for anything else. When we do need something, we write it. > I can't help but wonder: where's the crux of the inertia? I ate that too. > Are the core Plan 9 design concepts in fact ineffective or > unsuitable for > building a general purpose computing environment? Should that statement be valid, the creation of UNIX in the first place is an utter pointless failure; are you willing to say that? Your justifying the Windows way and slanderizing one of the most revolutionary changes to systems there was. Plan 9 took that change to the next level, so you'd be slanderiIng us even more. Plan 9 is general purpose. There's no reason you can write software for, say, office suites, graphics edition, audio editing, MIDI, gaming, or anything else. We just don't have the need for it. Should you need something, please bring it up. We would be happy to actually discuss something, so far you don't seem to actually want that. > I find that very hard to believe - but there's over 15 years of > evidence > which seems to imply just that. Read up on why Plan 9 was written. We've been succeeding for 20 years so far. We may not be wide spread, but many prefer that. > No one's willing to spearhead a "General Purpose 9" experiment, and no > one's interested in collaborating on and contributing to such a > project? I am, although I'm paying attention to numerous psychological concerns, and a large documentation base about language design (most from Backus). I prefered to wait to announce this, but we have been disgraced long enough by people who aren't willing to actually do anything. I would also also prefer to design the entire toolchain and kernel myself, then let others in. Mostly I'm doing this to proove we need to pay more attention to psychological issues in computing, and to show we should actually read research papers about language/system design. Should the ideas turn out valid, it'll turn it into a system specializing in multimedia, specifically professional audio. Plan 9 is general purpose enough to remain compatable with, even though there's significant design differences. File oriented design really helps. Yet you called this a flaw. Yes I know what I'm getting into. > "If you want [general purpose], you know where to get it." seems to > be the period that ends all such discussion. File oriented, non-specialized; sounds like Plan 9. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 2:17 ` Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-30 3:10 ` Rahul Murmuria 2010-03-30 18:23 ` Jack Johnson 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Rahul Murmuria @ 2010-03-30 3:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Well, most of Plan 9's ideas have been trickling down into "general purpose" operating systems for years! I don't see what others here claiming failure of Plan 9 are referring to. In order to bring new technology to mass consumption, you don't bring the masses to drive the formula 1 race car... you instead try and adapt the new concepts into the Toyotas and Hondas... -- Rahul Murmuria ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 2:17 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-30 3:10 ` Rahul Murmuria @ 2010-03-30 18:23 ` Jack Johnson 2010-03-30 18:25 ` Jack Johnson 2010-03-30 18:44 ` Patrick Kelly 1 sibling, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Jack Johnson @ 2010-03-30 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Patrick Kelly <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote: > Read up on why Plan 9 was written. We've been succeeding for 20 years so > far. I think this is an interesting comment in light of the evolution thread. Most people (incorrectly) equate evolution with progress. Whether or not other more popular OSes are evidence of progress, it's interesting to consider the idea of success. The millipede has been around with relatively few upgrades for the past 420 billion years or so. It would be hard to call it unsuccessful, even though it can't (yet?) effectively run, jump, or fly. -Jack ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 18:23 ` Jack Johnson @ 2010-03-30 18:25 ` Jack Johnson 2010-03-30 18:44 ` Patrick Kelly 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Jack Johnson @ 2010-03-30 18:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Patrick Kelly <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote: > around with relatively few upgrades for the past 420 billion years or s/billion/million/ -Jack ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 18:23 ` Jack Johnson 2010-03-30 18:25 ` Jack Johnson @ 2010-03-30 18:44 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-04-01 10:13 ` [9fans] Plan ? William Cowan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-30 18:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mar 30, 2010, at 14:23, Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Patrick Kelly > <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote: >> Read up on why Plan 9 was written. We've been succeeding for 20 >> years so >> far. > > I think this is an interesting comment in light of the evolution > thread. Most people (incorrectly) equate evolution with progress. > Whether or not other more popular OSes are evidence of progress, it's > interesting to consider the idea of success. The millipede has been > around with relatively few upgrades for the past 420 billion years or > so. It would be hard to call it unsuccessful, even though it can't > (yet?) effectively run, jump, or fly. I think the millipede can run, may be that's just the centipede. Both are rediculously well adapted, yet haven't really advanced. This analogy is worth of a beer. +1 > -Jack > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? 2010-03-30 18:44 ` Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-01 10:13 ` William Cowan 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: William Cowan @ 2010-04-01 10:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Patrick Kelly <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mar 30, 2010, at 14:23, Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Patrick Kelly >> <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Read up on why Plan 9 was written. We've been succeeding for 20 >>> years so >>> far. >> >> I think this is an interesting comment in light of the evolution >> thread. Most people (incorrectly) equate evolution with progress. >> Whether or not other more popular OSes are evidence of progress, it's >> interesting to consider the idea of success. The millipede has been >> around with relatively few upgrades for the past 420 billion years or >> so. It would be hard to call it unsuccessful, even though it can't >> (yet?) effectively run, jump, or fly. > I think the millipede can run, may be that's just the centipede. Both > are rediculously well adapted, yet haven't really advanced. What it does is definitely effective, but it's not much like running, more like swimming with a hundred or so lightly coordinated arms. Bill > This analogy is worth of a beer. +1 >> -Jack ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 1:21 ` Corey ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-03-30 2:17 ` Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-30 9:28 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-30 10:19 ` hugo rivera 3 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2010-03-30 9:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: corey, 9fans > No one's willing to spearhead a "General Purpose 9" experiment, and no > one's interested in collaborating on and contributing to such a project? > > "If you want [general purpose], you know where to get it." seems to > be the period that ends all such discussion. I wouldn't quite agree, the discussions usually end one of three ways: - somone wants somthing like gnome, and are encouraged to run linux. - somone wants "the community" to port smthing like gnome and noone is interested so they get bored and go away. - somone wants to write some code to solve a problem they have with plan9 and the just get on with it and tell the list when its done. An example: I need SVN support at work, cinap has wrapped up his linuxemu with the snv client and the apropriate shared libraries (thanks cinap). This allows me to continue using plan9 (as I do every day, all day). In parallel I now have written a webdav client which I hope will become a DeltaV/SVN client for plan9. I feel its worth writing as I think it is interesting to try and fit the plan9 file model to SVN's version control model. I wanted it, I got on with it and wrote it. > I can't help but wonder: where's the crux of the inertia? An interesting question. If you can garner enthusism from the list perhaps you can be "the one" to spearhead a new burst of enthusism? -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 9:28 ` [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) Steve Simon @ 2010-03-30 10:19 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-30 10:33 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 0 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: hugo rivera @ 2010-03-30 10:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I agree with Steve. I like the community approach to this matter: if plan9 doesn't have what you need, do it yourself; if you do something that might be useful for others share it and see what happens. Being a newbie myself I find very hard to write my own utilities, but that's a good way to learn ;-) 2010/3/30 Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net>: >> No one's willing to spearhead a "General Purpose 9" experiment, and no >> one's interested in collaborating on and contributing to such a project? >> >> "If you want [general purpose], you know where to get it." seems to >> be the period that ends all such discussion. > > I wouldn't quite agree, the discussions usually end one of three ways: > > - somone wants somthing like gnome, and are encouraged to run linux. > > - somone wants "the community" to port smthing like gnome and noone is > interested so they get bored and go away. > > - somone wants to write some code to solve a problem they have with plan9 > and the just get on with it and tell the list when its done. > > An example: > > I need SVN support at work, cinap has wrapped up his linuxemu with the snv > client and the apropriate shared libraries (thanks cinap). This allows me to > continue using plan9 (as I do every day, all day). > > In parallel I now have written a webdav client which I hope will become > a DeltaV/SVN client for plan9. I feel its worth writing as I think it is > interesting to try and fit the plan9 file model to SVN's version control model. > > I wanted it, I got on with it and wrote it. > >> I can't help but wonder: where's the crux of the inertia? > > An interesting question. If you can garner enthusism from the list > perhaps you can be "the one" to spearhead a new burst of enthusism? > > -Steve > > -- Hugo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 10:19 ` hugo rivera @ 2010-03-30 10:33 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-03-30 10:40 ` hugo rivera ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave @ 2010-03-30 10:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs hello This way (dot-it-your-self-way) we will "only" have one-man projects. . . slds. gabi El 30/03/2010, a las 12:19, hugo rivera escribió: > I agree with Steve. > I like the community approach to this matter: if plan9 doesn't have > what you need, do it yourself; if you do something that might be > useful for others share it and see what happens. > Being a newbie myself I find very hard to write my own utilities, but > that's a good way to learn ;-) > > > 2010/3/30 Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net>: >>> No one's willing to spearhead a "General Purpose 9" experiment, and no >>> one's interested in collaborating on and contributing to such a project? >>> >>> "If you want [general purpose], you know where to get it." seems to >>> be the period that ends all such discussion. >> >> I wouldn't quite agree, the discussions usually end one of three ways: >> >> - somone wants somthing like gnome, and are encouraged to run linux. >> >> - somone wants "the community" to port smthing like gnome and noone is >> interested so they get bored and go away. >> >> - somone wants to write some code to solve a problem they have with plan9 >> and the just get on with it and tell the list when its done. >> >> An example: >> >> I need SVN support at work, cinap has wrapped up his linuxemu with the snv >> client and the apropriate shared libraries (thanks cinap). This allows me to >> continue using plan9 (as I do every day, all day). >> >> In parallel I now have written a webdav client which I hope will become >> a DeltaV/SVN client for plan9. I feel its worth writing as I think it is >> interesting to try and fit the plan9 file model to SVN's version control model. >> >> I wanted it, I got on with it and wrote it. >> >>> I can't help but wonder: where's the crux of the inertia? >> >> An interesting question. If you can garner enthusism from the list >> perhaps you can be "the one" to spearhead a new burst of enthusism? >> >> -Steve >> >> > > > > -- > Hugo > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 10:33 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave @ 2010-03-30 10:40 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-30 11:40 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2010-03-30 12:20 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-30 12:34 ` Steve Simon 2 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: hugo rivera @ 2010-03-30 10:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I don't agree. I think that more than one person can be involved in any given project. 2010/3/30 Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave <gdiaz@rejaa.com>: > hello > > This way (dot-it-your-self-way) we will "only" have one-man projects. . . > > slds. > > gabi > -- Hugo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 10:40 ` hugo rivera @ 2010-03-30 11:40 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2010-03-30 11:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Ok, but please, put the limit in two man per project, three at most. On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:40 PM, hugo rivera <uair00@gmail.com> wrote: > I don't agree. I think that more than one person can be involved in > any given project. > > > 2010/3/30 Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave <gdiaz@rejaa.com>: >> hello >> >> This way (dot-it-your-self-way) we will "only" have one-man projects. . . >> >> slds. >> >> gabi >> > > > > > -- > Hugo > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 10:33 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-03-30 10:40 ` hugo rivera @ 2010-03-30 12:20 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-30 12:34 ` Steve Simon 2 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-30 12:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mar 30, 2010, at 6:33 AM, Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave wrote: > hello > > This way (dot-it-your-self-way) we will "only" have one-man > projects. . . Do it yourself refers to the community doing anything they need. Most things are so trivial that one or two people can do it. That doesn't mean there has never been a multi person collaboration. > slds. > > gabi > > El 30/03/2010, a las 12:19, hugo rivera escribió: > >> I agree with Steve. >> I like the community approach to this matter: if plan9 doesn't have >> what you need, do it yourself; if you do something that might be >> useful for others share it and see what happens. >> Being a newbie myself I find very hard to write my own utilities, but >> that's a good way to learn ;-) >> >> >> 2010/3/30 Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net>: >>>> No one's willing to spearhead a "General Purpose 9" experiment, >>>> and no >>>> one's interested in collaborating on and contributing to such a >>>> project? >>>> >>>> "If you want [general purpose], you know where to get it." seems to >>>> be the period that ends all such discussion. >>> >>> I wouldn't quite agree, the discussions usually end one of three >>> ways: >>> >>> - somone wants somthing like gnome, and are encouraged to run linux. >>> >>> - somone wants "the community" to port smthing like gnome and >>> noone is >>> interested so they get bored and go away. >>> >>> - somone wants to write some code to solve a problem they have >>> with plan9 >>> and the just get on with it and tell the list when its done. >>> >>> An example: >>> >>> I need SVN support at work, cinap has wrapped up his linuxemu with >>> the snv >>> client and the apropriate shared libraries (thanks cinap). This >>> allows me to >>> continue using plan9 (as I do every day, all day). >>> >>> In parallel I now have written a webdav client which I hope will >>> become >>> a DeltaV/SVN client for plan9. I feel its worth writing as I think >>> it is >>> interesting to try and fit the plan9 file model to SVN's version >>> control model. >>> >>> I wanted it, I got on with it and wrote it. >>> >>>> I can't help but wonder: where's the crux of the inertia? >>> >>> An interesting question. If you can garner enthusism from the list >>> perhaps you can be "the one" to spearhead a new burst of enthusism? >>> >>> -Steve >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Hugo >> > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 10:33 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-03-30 10:40 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-30 12:20 ` Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-30 12:34 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-30 13:28 ` tlaronde 2 siblings, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2010-03-30 12:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > This way (dot-it-your-self-way) we will "only" have one-man projects. . . True, if anyone feels that a project is too big for them then by all means put a shout out on the list and see if anyone there wants to help. I only make the point (which has been made so many times before on this list) that all that counts is code. Talking about writing code doesn't cut it, if people want more code to exist then they need to write it. I am not discounting discussing how things should be implemented, this is often a great way to formulate ideas (even if its just how _not_ to do things), but discussing why there isn't more software kinda misses the point doesn't it? -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 12:34 ` Steve Simon @ 2010-03-30 13:28 ` tlaronde 2010-03-30 13:45 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-30 17:07 ` Albert Skye 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2010-03-30 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 01:34:12PM +0100, Steve Simon wrote: > > This way (dot-it-your-self-way) we will "only" have one-man projects. . . > > True, if anyone feels that a project is too big for them then > by all means put a shout out on the list and see if anyone there wants to help. Everything can not always be done as a collaboration; and the main possibilities are in parallele works. This implies a kind of independance. Indeed, when there are several people working on the "same" thing, it's because the thing has been thought, is consistent (hence: thought by very few people, with one leading), so that it's an organized hierarchy of "one man" works. Take the example of TeX, METAFONT (the conversion of WEB/Pascal to something compilable on the majority of systems). When I started looking at what was going on, trying to make sense of the thing, it was not possible to be several doing this; and since I didn't know at the beginning, I couldn't obviously explain. Now I know. But it would take me all the time to explain to someone else, hence we would not be 2 doing the work, but 1 explaining without doing, and the other trying to do without having understood by doing... And the "collaborative" effort shows in the web2c result: things that are common between all the pieces written by D.E.K. are implemented with slight divergences for TeX and METAFONT, with variations in names, in parameters and so on, because some have worked on TeX, while others worked on METAFONT etc. The main task now is cleaning and deleting and having the strict minimum of code. And you can compare. Donald Knuth has done the work, the majority: the code. And a bunch of people have contributed chunks for the compilation framework. On one side, you have code (result) and consistency; on the other side, you have _inhumanity_ since you have increasing of the entropy that is disorder: order is unnatural, and is the mark of human activity. "Open source" seems very natural in this sense: the bazaar... -- Thierry Laronde (Alceste) <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 13:28 ` tlaronde @ 2010-03-30 13:45 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-30 17:07 ` Albert Skye 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-30 13:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > On one side, you have code (result) and consistency; on the > other side, you have _inhumanity_ since you have increasing of the > entropy that is disorder: order is unnatural, and is the mark of human > activity. "Open source" seems very natural in this sense: the > bazaar... Until you factor in one little detail. It's all been engineered, yet is still entropic. I guess it just goes to show that given a project where 1 engineer would suffice, 20 won't make it any better. 20 people may be able to make something faster, but it lacks that human quality, order and care; it's like why grandma's cookies are so much better. I'll take grandma's cookies over factory ones any day. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 13:28 ` tlaronde 2010-03-30 13:45 ` Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-30 17:07 ` Albert Skye 2010-03-30 17:13 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-30 18:03 ` tlaronde 1 sibling, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Albert Skye @ 2010-03-30 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > order is unnatural The Origins of Order: Self-Organization and Selection in Evolution by Stuart A. Kauffman http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Order-Self-Organization-Selection-Evolution/dp/0195079515 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 17:07 ` Albert Skye @ 2010-03-30 17:13 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-30 18:09 ` Nick LaForge 2010-03-30 18:03 ` tlaronde 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: David Leimbach @ 2010-03-30 17:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 350 bytes --] On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Albert Skye <mistlail@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > order is unnatural > > The Origins of Order: Self-Organization and Selection in Evolution > by Stuart A. Kauffman > > > http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Order-Self-Organization-Selection-Evolution/dp/0195079515 > > Why have facts when speculation is more fun. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 725 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 17:13 ` David Leimbach @ 2010-03-30 18:09 ` Nick LaForge 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Nick LaForge @ 2010-03-30 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I am utterly depressed that this pedestrian crap can so easily get a rise out of several 9fans after all these times. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 17:07 ` Albert Skye 2010-03-30 17:13 ` David Leimbach @ 2010-03-30 18:03 ` tlaronde 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2010-03-30 18:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:07:11AM -0700, Albert Skye wrote: > > order is unnatural > > The Origins of Order: Self-Organization and Selection in Evolution > by Stuart A. Kauffman > > http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Order-Self-Organization-Selection-Evolution/dp/0195079515 order is unnatural for things lacking a conscience or a soul (in french, non animated; I don't know if the sense is correct in english). Entropy. For human societies, the less organized they are, the less human they are---the ones with the less conscience are the ones who kill, who steal, who stock exchange and so on. Do you want to live in Somalia, in the City, etc.? When it is forbidden to forbid, egoism rules, hence non-egoists die. Without a conscience, you don't know that you are and can be a part of the whole; a part of an organized whole. Nobody knows everything by his own genius, but because there are things he inherited from the previous ones; and he can go farther, by taking over (the relay). Not by sitting on the bleachers with two pounds of pop-corn. In software, when there is no more someone who understands the whole and is able to keep the whole as an entity, pieces start being taken apart, because savages want to put a graffiti on the building; the same way a dog urinate on things that emerge to tell: "it's mine". Back to software: how many developers are we _really_ relying upon the work? For myself, if I count the original ones (Unix/C, Plan9, TeX and al., CERL GRASS [ancestor of KerGIS]), this is less than 20... for something like a bit more than half a century of "computer science"... And for each piece of software I really use, there were a maximum of 3 core people involved, with one leading. And to "maintain" this, some claim there are "communities" with hundreds, if not thousands of "developers"---when for the huge majority, it will be enough to call them programmers. And there is even "software creationism": the thing exists, not when there is working code, but as soon as you have written that it will be delivered under the holy licence. I'm getting old... -- Thierry Laronde (Alceste) <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) 2010-03-30 0:20 ` [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) Corey 2010-03-30 0:24 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-30 2:11 ` Iruata Souza 2010-04-07 22:52 ` [9fans] bootiso.s fixed cinap_lenrek 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Iruata Souza @ 2010-03-30 2:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Corey <corey@bitworthy.net> wrote: > Is it that the core Plan 9 design concepts[1] are in fact inappropriate or > uninteresting for anything beyond that which Plan 9 currently provides? > [1] /sys/doc ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-03-30 2:11 ` Iruata Souza @ 2010-04-07 22:52 ` cinap_lenrek 2010-04-08 0:08 ` ron minnich 2010-04-08 1:14 ` Iruata Souza 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: cinap_lenrek @ 2010-04-07 22:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 509 bytes --] found it! the problem was the LBPB() to load byte 0 from the pvd for comparsion. i loaded it into rBX instead of rBL. found this out after dumping the buffer and noticed that the contents where the same on t23 and amd machine. it all works now. tested on t23, bochs, and amd machine and its blazing fast :) updated the tarballs: /n/sources/contrib/cinap_lenrek/tuttleboot.tgz http://9hal.ath.cx/usr/cinap_lenrek/tuttleboot.tgz attached the file and the diff to this mail... -- cinap [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 8528 bytes --] #include "x16.h" #include "mem.h" /* * simple Plan 9 bootblock for ISO9660 that can load a uncompressed a.out kernel * image. looks for 386/9pcload. if heres no 386 it searches 9pcload in the root. * this is a non floppy emulation el torito bootblock! * * Diagnostics are: * ♥ alive! * ? i/o error, will retry * ! i/o error, giving up * F bad a.out magic * S could not find the file * */ #define DATA32SEL SELECTOR(1, SELGDT, 0) #define EXEC32SEL SELECTOR(2, SELGDT, 0) #define EXEC16SEL SELECTOR(3, SELGDT, 0) #define FARRET \ BYTE $0xCB #define SWAPB(r) \ BYTE $0x0F; BYTE $(0xC8|r) #define XORAL(i) \ BYTE $0x34; BYTE $i /* 2048 byte sectors */ #define SECTSHIFT 0x0B #define BY2SECT (1<<SECTSHIFT) /* * Data is kept on the stack, indexed by rBP. */ #define Xdap 0x00 /* disc address packet */ #define Xdrive 0x12 /* boot drive, passed by BIOS or MBR */ #define Xentry 0x14 /* a.out entry, text, data*/ #define Xtextsz 0x18 #define Xdatasz 0x1c #define Xload 0x20 /* load pointer */ #define Xcount 0x24 /* # of sectors to load */ #define Xbuf 0x28 #define Xtotal (Xbuf+BY2SECT) /* a.out header offsets */ #define Amagic 0x00 #define Atextsz 0x04 #define Adatasz 0x08 #define Aentry 0x14 #define Aouthdr 0x20 TEXT magic(SB), $0 /* jmp .+ 0x3E (_start0x40); nop; nop; nop; nop; nop; nop */ BYTE $0xEB; BYTE $0x3E; BYTE $0x90; BYTE $0x90 BYTE $0x90; BYTE $0x90; BYTE $0x90; BYTE $0x90 TEXT bipvd(SB), $0 LONG $0x00000000 TEXT bibootfile(SB), $0 LONG $0x00000000 TEXT bibootfilelen(SB), $0 LONG $0x00000000 TEXT bichecksum(SB), $0 LONG $0x00000000 TEXT bireserved(SB), $0 LONG $0x00000000 LONG $0x00000000 LONG $0x00000000 LONG $0x00000000 LONG $0x00000000 LONG $0x00000000 LONG $0x00000000 LONG $0x00000000 LONG $0x00000000 LONG $0x00000000 _start0x40: CLI /* be carefull! do not trash rDL until we reached start() */ LWI(magic-Xtotal(SB), rSP) MW(rSP, rBP) LWI(start(SB), rAX) _farret16: CLR(rCX) MTSR(rCX, rDS) MTSR(rCX, rES) MTSR(rCX, rSS) PUSHR(rCX) PUSHR(rAX) FARRET TEXT return16(SB), $0 MFCR(rCR0, rAX) XORAL(1) MTCR(rAX, rCR0) LWI(return16ret(SB), rAX) JMP _farret16 TEXT return16ret(SB), $0 STI RET TEXT start(SB), $0 STI SBPB(rDL, Xdrive) /* alive! */ LWI(0x0E03, rAX) BIOSCALL(0x10) /* A20! we has to enable itt! */ LWI(0x2401, rAX) BIOSCALL(0x15) /* find the primary volume descriptor */ CLR(rDX) LWI(0x0010, rAX) LWI(0xFF, rCX) CLR(rBX) _nextpvd: CALL16(BIOSread(SB)) LBPB(Xbuf, rBL) CMPI(1, rBX) JEQ _pvdfound CLR(rBX) ADDI(1, rAX) ADC(rBX, rDX) LOOP _nextpvd CALL16(srcherror(SB)) _pvdfound: /* load lba and length of root directory */ LBPW((Xbuf+156+2), rAX) LBPW((Xbuf+156+4), rDX) LBPW((Xbuf+156+10), rCX) LBPW((Xbuf+156+12), rBX) CALL16(walk(SB)) CALL16(srcherror(SB)) TEXT load(SB), $0 CLR(rCX) SBPWI(0xFFFF, Xcount+0) SBPWI(0xFFFF, Xcount+2) CALL16(BIOSread(SB)) _loop: PUSHA CALL16(BIOSread(SB)) CALL16(movehigh(SB)) POPA ADDI(1, rAX) ADC(rCX, rDX) JMP _loop TEXT BIOSread(SB), $0 LWI(5, rDI) /* retry count (ATAPI ZIPs suck) */ _retry: PUSHA PUSHS(rDS) PUSHS(rES) PUSHS(rFS) PUSHS(rGS) SBPW(rAX, Xdap+8) SBPW(rDX, Xdap+10) SBPWI(0x0010, Xdap+0) /* reserved + packet size */ SBPWI(0x0001, Xdap+2) /* # of blocks to transfer */ MW(rBP, rSI) ADDI(Xbuf, rSI) SBPW(rSI, Xdap+4) /* transfer buffer :offset */ MFSR(rSS, rSI) /* transfer buffer seg: */ SBPW(rSI, Xdap+6) MW(rBP, rSI) /* Xdap == BP */ LBPB(Xdrive, rDL) LWI(0x4200, rAX) BIOSCALL(0x13) JCC _readok _reset: LWI((0x0E00+'?'), rAX) BIOSCALL(0x10) /* reset the drive */ LBPB(Xdrive, rDL) CLR(rAX) BIOSCALL(0x13) POPS(rGS) POPS(rFS) POPS(rES) POPS(rDS) POPA DEC(rDI) JNE _retry TEXT ioerror(SB), $0 LBI('!', rAL) JMP _error TEXT fmterror(SB), $0 LBI('F', rAL) JMP _error TEXT srcherror(SB), $0 LBI('S', rAL) JMP _error _error: /* print error code */ LBI(0x0E, rAH) BIOSCALL(0x10) /* wait for almost any key */ CLR(rAX) BIOSCALL(0x16) /* reset */ LWI(0x0472, rBX) /* warm-start code address */ LWI(0x1234, rAX) /* warm-start code */ POKEW /* MOVW AX, ES:[BX] */ FARJUMP16(0xFFFF, 0x0000) _readok: POPS(rGS) POPS(rFS) POPS(rES) POPS(rDS) POPA RET TEXT walk(SB), $0 PUSHR(rAX) PUSHR(rDX) PUSHR(rCX) PUSHR(rBX) CALL16(BIOSread(SB)) MW(rBP, rBX) ADDI(Xbuf, rBX) MW(rBX, rDI) TEXT walknext(SB), $0 MW(rDI, rSI) MW(rSI, rAX) SUB(rBX, rAX) CMPI(BY2SECT, rAX) JGE _nextsector CLR(rCX) LXB(0, xSI, rCL) ORB(rCL, rCL) JEQ _nextsector ADD(rCX, rDI) PUSHI(walktest(SB)) RET _nextsector: POPR(rBX) POPR(rCX) POPR(rDX) POPR(rAX) OR(rCX, rCX) JNE _contwalk OR(rBX, rBX) JEQ _retwalk DEC(rBX) _contwalk: SUBI(BY2SECT, rCX) CLR(rDI) ADDI(1, rAX) ADC(rDI, rDX) PUSHI(walk(SB)) _retwalk: RET TEXT walktest(SB), $0 PUSHA LXW(2, xSI, rAX) LXW(4, xSI, rDX) LXW(10, xSI, rCX) LXW(12, xSI, rBX) PUSHA CLR(rCX) LXB(25, xSI, rCL) ANDI(2, rCX) POPA JEQ _notdir PUSHA LWI(dirname(SB), rDX) CALL16(cmpiname(SB)) POPA JNE _skipdir ADDI((2*12), rSP) PUSHI(walk(SB)) RET _notdir: PUSHA LWI(filename(SB), rDX) CALL16(cmpiname(SB)) POPA JNE _skipdir CALL16(load(SB)) /* no return */ _skipdir: POPA PUSHI(walknext(SB)) RET TEXT cmpiname(SB), $0 CLR(rBX) CLR(rAX) CLR(rCX) LXB(32, xSI, rCL) ADDI(33, rSI) MW(rDX, rDI) PUSHR(rDI) PUSHR(rCX) _lenloop: LXB(0, xDI, rAL) OR(rAX, rAX) JEQ _endlen DEC(rCX) INC(rDI) JMP _lenloop _endlen: OR(rCX, rCX) POPR(rCX) POPR(rDI) JNE _ret _cmploop: LXB(0, xSI, rAL) LXB(0, xDI, rBL) CMPI('a', rAX) JLT _nocasea CMPI('z', rAX) JGT _nocasea ADDI(('A' - 'a'), rAX) _nocasea: CMPI('a', rBX) JLT _nocaseb CMPI('z', rBX) JGT _nocaseb ADDI(('A' - 'a'), rBX) _nocaseb: CMP(rAX, rBX) JNE _ret INC(rSI) INC(rDI) LOOP _cmploop OR(rCX, rCX) _ret: RET TEXT movehigh(SB), $0 CLI LGDT(tgdtptr(SB)) MFCR(rCR0, rAX) XORAL(1) MTCR(rAX, rCR0) FARJUMP32(EXEC32SEL, movehigh32(SB)) TEXT movehigh32(SB), $0 /* upper bits seem to be fucked */ ANDL $0xFFFF, BP ANDL $0xFFFF, SP MOVL $DATA32SEL, AX MOVW AX, DS MOVW AX, ES MOVW AX, SS MOVL Xload(BP), DI MOVL Xcount(BP), BX MOVL BP, SI ADDL $Xbuf, SI CMPL BX, $0 JEQ _boot JGT _movedata MOVL Amagic(SI), AX CMPL AX, $0xeb010000 JNE _fmterror MOVL Aentry(SI), DI SWAPB(rDI) ANDL $~0xF0000000, DI MOVL DI, Xentry(BP) SUBL $Aouthdr, DI MOVL Atextsz(SI), BX SWAPB(rBX) MOVL BX, Xtextsz(BP) MOVL Adatasz(SI), CX SWAPB(rCX) MOVL CX, Xdatasz(BP) ADDL CX, BX ADDL $(BY2SECT-1), BX SHRL $SECTSHIFT, BX _movedata: MOVL $BY2SECT, CX REP; MOVSB DECL BX MOVL DI, Xload(BP) MOVL BX, Xcount(BP) _return: /* Move back to 16 bit code segment from protected mode */ BYTE $0xEA; LONG $return16(SB); WORD $EXEC16SEL _fmterror: /* patch the 16 bit caller pc to point to the error function */ MOVL $fmterror(SB), AX MOVW AX, 0(SP) JMP _return _boot: /* * we have to move the data segment to a page aligned * address. */ MOVL Xentry(BP), SI MOVL SI, AX ADDL Xtextsz(BP), SI MOVL SI, DI ADDL $(BY2PG-1), DI ANDL $(~(BY2PG-1)), DI MOVL Xdatasz(BP), CX DECL CX ADDL CX, SI ADDL CX, DI INCL CX STD REP; MOVSB JMP *AX TEXT tgdt(SB),$0 /* null descriptor */ LONG $0 LONG $0 /* data segment descriptor for 4 gigabytes (PL 0) */ LONG $(0xFFFF) LONG $(SEGG|SEGB|(0xF<<16)|SEGP|SEGPL(0)|SEGDATA|SEGW) /* exec segment descriptor for 4 gigabytes (PL 0) */ LONG $(0xFFFF) LONG $(SEGG|SEGD|(0xF<<16)|SEGP|SEGPL(0)|SEGEXEC|SEGR) /* exec segment descriptor for 4 gigabytes (PL 0) 16-bit */ LONG $(0xFFFF) LONG $(SEGG|(0xF<<16)|SEGP|SEGPL(0)|SEGEXEC|SEGR) TEXT tgdtptr(SB),$0 WORD $(4*8) LONG $tgdt(SB) TEXT dirname(SB), $0 BYTE $'3'; BYTE $'8'; BYTE $'6'; BYTE $'\z' TEXT filename(SB), $0 BYTE $'9'; BYTE $'p'; BYTE $'c'; BYTE $'l' BYTE $'o'; BYTE $'a'; BYTE $'d'; BYTE $'\z' [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 1880 bytes --] /n/dump/2010/0407/usr/cinap_lenrek/code/tuttleboot/sys/src/boot/pc/bootiso.s:120,133 - bootiso.s:120,135 CLR(rDX) LWI(0x0010, rAX) - LWI(100, rCX) + LWI(0xFF, rCX) + CLR(rBX) _nextpvd: CALL16(BIOSread(SB)) - LBPB(Xbuf, rBX) + LBPB(Xbuf, rBL) CMPI(1, rBX) JEQ _pvdfound + CLR(rBX) ADDI(1, rAX) - ADC(rCX, rDX) + ADC(rBX, rDX) LOOP _nextpvd CALL16(srcherror(SB)) /n/dump/2010/0407/usr/cinap_lenrek/code/tuttleboot/sys/src/boot/pc/bootiso.s:158,167 - bootiso.s:160,174 JMP _loop TEXT BIOSread(SB), $0 + LWI(5, rDI) /* retry count (ATAPI ZIPs suck) */ _retry: PUSHA + PUSHS(rDS) + PUSHS(rES) + PUSHS(rFS) + PUSHS(rGS) SBPW(rAX, Xdap+8) SBPW(rDX, Xdap+10) /n/dump/2010/0407/usr/cinap_lenrek/code/tuttleboot/sys/src/boot/pc/bootiso.s:170,187 - bootiso.s:177,195 MW(rBP, rSI) ADDI(Xbuf, rSI) SBPW(rSI, Xdap+4) /* transfer buffer :offset */ - MFSR(rES, rSI) /* transfer buffer seg: */ + MFSR(rSS, rSI) /* transfer buffer seg: */ SBPW(rSI, Xdap+6) MW(rBP, rSI) /* Xdap == BP */ LBPB(Xdrive, rDL) - LBI(0x42, rAH) + LWI(0x4200, rAX) + BIOSCALL(0x13) - JCC _popret + JCC _readok _reset: LWI((0x0E00+'?'), rAX) - BIOSCALL(0x10) + BIOSCALL(0x10) /* reset the drive */ LBPB(Xdrive, rDL) /n/dump/2010/0407/usr/cinap_lenrek/code/tuttleboot/sys/src/boot/pc/bootiso.s:188,194 - bootiso.s:196,207 CLR(rAX) BIOSCALL(0x13) + POPS(rGS) + POPS(rFS) + POPS(rES) + POPS(rDS) POPA + DEC(rDI) JNE _retry /n/dump/2010/0407/usr/cinap_lenrek/code/tuttleboot/sys/src/boot/pc/bootiso.s:219,226 - bootiso.s:232,244 POKEW /* MOVW AX, ES:[BX] */ FARJUMP16(0xFFFF, 0x0000) - _popret: + _readok: + POPS(rGS) + POPS(rFS) + POPS(rES) + POPS(rDS) POPA + RET TEXT walk(SB), $0 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-07 22:52 ` [9fans] bootiso.s fixed cinap_lenrek @ 2010-04-08 0:08 ` ron minnich 2010-04-08 15:04 ` David Leimbach 2010-04-08 1:14 ` Iruata Souza 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2010-04-08 0:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs nice. It's nice to see the spirit of assembly language hacking is not being lost :-) ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-08 0:08 ` ron minnich @ 2010-04-08 15:04 ` David Leimbach 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: David Leimbach @ 2010-04-08 15:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 344 bytes --] On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 5:08 PM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote: > nice. It's nice to see the spirit of assembly language hacking is not > being lost :-) > > ron > > I actually miss it a great deal. I did more of that in college though than I've ever had to do professionally, and the rust is surely there on my old skills. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 661 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-07 22:52 ` [9fans] bootiso.s fixed cinap_lenrek 2010-04-08 0:08 ` ron minnich @ 2010-04-08 1:14 ` Iruata Souza 2010-04-08 14:29 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: Iruata Souza @ 2010-04-08 1:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs i guess this email was for me. ;] On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 7:52 PM, <cinap_lenrek@gmx.de> wrote: > found it! > > the problem was the LBPB() to load byte 0 from the pvd for comparsion. > i loaded it into rBX instead of rBL. found this out after dumping the > buffer and noticed that the contents where the same on t23 and amd > machine. > > it all works now. tested on t23, bochs, and amd machine and its > blazing fast :) > > updated the tarballs: > > /n/sources/contrib/cinap_lenrek/tuttleboot.tgz > http://9hal.ath.cx/usr/cinap_lenrek/tuttleboot.tgz > > attached the file and the diff to this mail... > > -- > cinap > > #include "x16.h" > #include "mem.h" > > /* > * simple Plan 9 bootblock for ISO9660 that can load a uncompressed a.out kernel > * image. looks for 386/9pcload. if heres no 386 it searches 9pcload in the root. > * this is a non floppy emulation el torito bootblock! > * > * Diagnostics are: > * ♥ alive! > * ? i/o error, will retry > * ! i/o error, giving up > * F bad a.out magic > * S could not find the file > * > */ > > #define DATA32SEL SELECTOR(1, SELGDT, 0) > #define EXEC32SEL SELECTOR(2, SELGDT, 0) > #define EXEC16SEL SELECTOR(3, SELGDT, 0) > > #define FARRET \ > BYTE $0xCB > #define SWAPB(r) \ > BYTE $0x0F; BYTE $(0xC8|r) > #define XORAL(i) \ > BYTE $0x34; BYTE $i > > /* 2048 byte sectors */ > #define SECTSHIFT 0x0B > #define BY2SECT (1<<SECTSHIFT) > > /* > * Data is kept on the stack, indexed by rBP. > */ > #define Xdap 0x00 /* disc address packet */ > #define Xdrive 0x12 /* boot drive, passed by BIOS or MBR */ > #define Xentry 0x14 /* a.out entry, text, data*/ > #define Xtextsz 0x18 > #define Xdatasz 0x1c > #define Xload 0x20 /* load pointer */ > #define Xcount 0x24 /* # of sectors to load */ > #define Xbuf 0x28 > #define Xtotal (Xbuf+BY2SECT) > > /* a.out header offsets */ > #define Amagic 0x00 > #define Atextsz 0x04 > #define Adatasz 0x08 > #define Aentry 0x14 > #define Aouthdr 0x20 > > TEXT magic(SB), $0 > /* jmp .+ 0x3E (_start0x40); nop; nop; nop; nop; nop; nop */ > BYTE $0xEB; BYTE $0x3E; BYTE $0x90; BYTE $0x90 > BYTE $0x90; BYTE $0x90; BYTE $0x90; BYTE $0x90 > > TEXT bipvd(SB), $0 > LONG $0x00000000 > TEXT bibootfile(SB), $0 > LONG $0x00000000 > TEXT bibootfilelen(SB), $0 > LONG $0x00000000 > TEXT bichecksum(SB), $0 > LONG $0x00000000 > TEXT bireserved(SB), $0 > LONG $0x00000000 > LONG $0x00000000 > LONG $0x00000000 > LONG $0x00000000 > LONG $0x00000000 > LONG $0x00000000 > LONG $0x00000000 > LONG $0x00000000 > LONG $0x00000000 > LONG $0x00000000 > > _start0x40: > CLI > > /* be carefull! do not trash rDL until we reached start() */ > LWI(magic-Xtotal(SB), rSP) > MW(rSP, rBP) > LWI(start(SB), rAX) > > _farret16: > CLR(rCX) > MTSR(rCX, rDS) > MTSR(rCX, rES) > MTSR(rCX, rSS) > PUSHR(rCX) > PUSHR(rAX) > FARRET > > TEXT return16(SB), $0 > MFCR(rCR0, rAX) > XORAL(1) > MTCR(rAX, rCR0) > LWI(return16ret(SB), rAX) > JMP _farret16 > > TEXT return16ret(SB), $0 > STI > RET > > TEXT start(SB), $0 > STI > > SBPB(rDL, Xdrive) > > /* alive! */ > LWI(0x0E03, rAX) > BIOSCALL(0x10) > > /* A20! we has to enable itt! */ > LWI(0x2401, rAX) > BIOSCALL(0x15) > > /* find the primary volume descriptor */ > CLR(rDX) > LWI(0x0010, rAX) > > LWI(0xFF, rCX) > CLR(rBX) > _nextpvd: > CALL16(BIOSread(SB)) > LBPB(Xbuf, rBL) > CMPI(1, rBX) > JEQ _pvdfound > CLR(rBX) > ADDI(1, rAX) > ADC(rBX, rDX) > LOOP _nextpvd > > CALL16(srcherror(SB)) > > _pvdfound: > /* load lba and length of root directory */ > LBPW((Xbuf+156+2), rAX) > LBPW((Xbuf+156+4), rDX) > LBPW((Xbuf+156+10), rCX) > LBPW((Xbuf+156+12), rBX) > > CALL16(walk(SB)) > CALL16(srcherror(SB)) > > TEXT load(SB), $0 > CLR(rCX) > SBPWI(0xFFFF, Xcount+0) > SBPWI(0xFFFF, Xcount+2) > CALL16(BIOSread(SB)) > > _loop: > PUSHA > CALL16(BIOSread(SB)) > CALL16(movehigh(SB)) > POPA > ADDI(1, rAX) > ADC(rCX, rDX) > JMP _loop > > TEXT BIOSread(SB), $0 > > LWI(5, rDI) /* retry count (ATAPI ZIPs suck) */ > > _retry: > PUSHA > PUSHS(rDS) > PUSHS(rES) > PUSHS(rFS) > PUSHS(rGS) > > SBPW(rAX, Xdap+8) > SBPW(rDX, Xdap+10) > SBPWI(0x0010, Xdap+0) /* reserved + packet size */ > SBPWI(0x0001, Xdap+2) /* # of blocks to transfer */ > MW(rBP, rSI) > ADDI(Xbuf, rSI) > SBPW(rSI, Xdap+4) /* transfer buffer :offset */ > MFSR(rSS, rSI) /* transfer buffer seg: */ > SBPW(rSI, Xdap+6) > > MW(rBP, rSI) /* Xdap == BP */ > LBPB(Xdrive, rDL) > LWI(0x4200, rAX) > > BIOSCALL(0x13) > JCC _readok > > _reset: > LWI((0x0E00+'?'), rAX) > BIOSCALL(0x10) > > /* reset the drive */ > LBPB(Xdrive, rDL) > CLR(rAX) > BIOSCALL(0x13) > > POPS(rGS) > POPS(rFS) > POPS(rES) > POPS(rDS) > POPA > > DEC(rDI) > JNE _retry > > TEXT ioerror(SB), $0 > LBI('!', rAL) > JMP _error > > TEXT fmterror(SB), $0 > LBI('F', rAL) > JMP _error > > TEXT srcherror(SB), $0 > LBI('S', rAL) > JMP _error > > _error: > /* print error code */ > LBI(0x0E, rAH) > BIOSCALL(0x10) > > /* wait for almost any key */ > CLR(rAX) > BIOSCALL(0x16) > > /* reset */ > LWI(0x0472, rBX) /* warm-start code address */ > LWI(0x1234, rAX) /* warm-start code */ > POKEW /* MOVW AX, ES:[BX] */ > FARJUMP16(0xFFFF, 0x0000) > > _readok: > POPS(rGS) > POPS(rFS) > POPS(rES) > POPS(rDS) > POPA > > RET > > TEXT walk(SB), $0 > PUSHR(rAX) > PUSHR(rDX) > PUSHR(rCX) > PUSHR(rBX) > > CALL16(BIOSread(SB)) > MW(rBP, rBX) > ADDI(Xbuf, rBX) > MW(rBX, rDI) > > TEXT walknext(SB), $0 > MW(rDI, rSI) > > MW(rSI, rAX) > SUB(rBX, rAX) > CMPI(BY2SECT, rAX) > JGE _nextsector > CLR(rCX) > LXB(0, xSI, rCL) > ORB(rCL, rCL) > JEQ _nextsector > ADD(rCX, rDI) > > PUSHI(walktest(SB)) > RET > > _nextsector: > POPR(rBX) > POPR(rCX) > POPR(rDX) > POPR(rAX) > > OR(rCX, rCX) > JNE _contwalk > OR(rBX, rBX) > JEQ _retwalk > DEC(rBX) > _contwalk: > SUBI(BY2SECT, rCX) > > CLR(rDI) > ADDI(1, rAX) > ADC(rDI, rDX) > PUSHI(walk(SB)) > _retwalk: > RET > > TEXT walktest(SB), $0 > PUSHA > > LXW(2, xSI, rAX) > LXW(4, xSI, rDX) > LXW(10, xSI, rCX) > LXW(12, xSI, rBX) > > PUSHA > CLR(rCX) > LXB(25, xSI, rCL) > ANDI(2, rCX) > POPA > JEQ _notdir > > PUSHA > LWI(dirname(SB), rDX) > CALL16(cmpiname(SB)) > POPA > JNE _skipdir > > ADDI((2*12), rSP) > PUSHI(walk(SB)) > RET > > _notdir: > PUSHA > LWI(filename(SB), rDX) > CALL16(cmpiname(SB)) > POPA > JNE _skipdir > > CALL16(load(SB)) > /* no return */ > > _skipdir: > POPA > PUSHI(walknext(SB)) > RET > > TEXT cmpiname(SB), $0 > CLR(rBX) > CLR(rAX) > > CLR(rCX) > LXB(32, xSI, rCL) > ADDI(33, rSI) > MW(rDX, rDI) > > PUSHR(rDI) > PUSHR(rCX) > _lenloop: > LXB(0, xDI, rAL) > OR(rAX, rAX) > JEQ _endlen > DEC(rCX) > INC(rDI) > JMP _lenloop > _endlen: > OR(rCX, rCX) > POPR(rCX) > POPR(rDI) > JNE _ret > > _cmploop: > LXB(0, xSI, rAL) > LXB(0, xDI, rBL) > CMPI('a', rAX) > JLT _nocasea > CMPI('z', rAX) > JGT _nocasea > ADDI(('A' - 'a'), rAX) > _nocasea: > CMPI('a', rBX) > JLT _nocaseb > CMPI('z', rBX) > JGT _nocaseb > ADDI(('A' - 'a'), rBX) > _nocaseb: > CMP(rAX, rBX) > JNE _ret > INC(rSI) > INC(rDI) > LOOP _cmploop > OR(rCX, rCX) > _ret: > RET > > TEXT movehigh(SB), $0 > CLI > LGDT(tgdtptr(SB)) > > MFCR(rCR0, rAX) > XORAL(1) > MTCR(rAX, rCR0) > > FARJUMP32(EXEC32SEL, movehigh32(SB)) > > TEXT movehigh32(SB), $0 > /* upper bits seem to be fucked */ > ANDL $0xFFFF, BP > ANDL $0xFFFF, SP > > MOVL $DATA32SEL, AX > MOVW AX, DS > MOVW AX, ES > MOVW AX, SS > > MOVL Xload(BP), DI > MOVL Xcount(BP), BX > > MOVL BP, SI > ADDL $Xbuf, SI > > CMPL BX, $0 > JEQ _boot > JGT _movedata > > MOVL Amagic(SI), AX > CMPL AX, $0xeb010000 > JNE _fmterror > > MOVL Aentry(SI), DI > SWAPB(rDI) > ANDL $~0xF0000000, DI > MOVL DI, Xentry(BP) > SUBL $Aouthdr, DI > > MOVL Atextsz(SI), BX > SWAPB(rBX) > MOVL BX, Xtextsz(BP) > > MOVL Adatasz(SI), CX > SWAPB(rCX) > MOVL CX, Xdatasz(BP) > > ADDL CX, BX > ADDL $(BY2SECT-1), BX > SHRL $SECTSHIFT, BX > > _movedata: > MOVL $BY2SECT, CX > REP; MOVSB > DECL BX > > MOVL DI, Xload(BP) > MOVL BX, Xcount(BP) > > _return: > /* Move back to 16 bit code segment from protected mode */ > BYTE $0xEA; LONG $return16(SB); WORD $EXEC16SEL > > _fmterror: > /* patch the 16 bit caller pc to point to the error function */ > MOVL $fmterror(SB), AX > MOVW AX, 0(SP) > JMP _return > > _boot: > /* > * we have to move the data segment to a page aligned > * address. > */ > MOVL Xentry(BP), SI > MOVL SI, AX > ADDL Xtextsz(BP), SI > MOVL SI, DI > ADDL $(BY2PG-1), DI > ANDL $(~(BY2PG-1)), DI > MOVL Xdatasz(BP), CX > DECL CX > ADDL CX, SI > ADDL CX, DI > INCL CX > STD > REP; MOVSB > JMP *AX > > TEXT tgdt(SB),$0 > /* null descriptor */ > LONG $0 > LONG $0 > > /* data segment descriptor for 4 gigabytes (PL 0) */ > LONG $(0xFFFF) > LONG $(SEGG|SEGB|(0xF<<16)|SEGP|SEGPL(0)|SEGDATA|SEGW) > > /* exec segment descriptor for 4 gigabytes (PL 0) */ > LONG $(0xFFFF) > LONG $(SEGG|SEGD|(0xF<<16)|SEGP|SEGPL(0)|SEGEXEC|SEGR) > > /* exec segment descriptor for 4 gigabytes (PL 0) 16-bit */ > LONG $(0xFFFF) > LONG $(SEGG|(0xF<<16)|SEGP|SEGPL(0)|SEGEXEC|SEGR) > > TEXT tgdtptr(SB),$0 > WORD $(4*8) > LONG $tgdt(SB) > > TEXT dirname(SB), $0 > BYTE $'3'; BYTE $'8'; BYTE $'6'; BYTE $'\z' > > TEXT filename(SB), $0 > BYTE $'9'; BYTE $'p'; BYTE $'c'; BYTE $'l' > BYTE $'o'; BYTE $'a'; BYTE $'d'; BYTE $'\z' > /n/dump/2010/0407/usr/cinap_lenrek/code/tuttleboot/sys/src/boot/pc/bootiso.s:120,133 - bootiso.s:120,135 > CLR(rDX) > LWI(0x0010, rAX) > > - LWI(100, rCX) > + LWI(0xFF, rCX) > + CLR(rBX) > _nextpvd: > CALL16(BIOSread(SB)) > - LBPB(Xbuf, rBX) > + LBPB(Xbuf, rBL) > CMPI(1, rBX) > JEQ _pvdfound > + CLR(rBX) > ADDI(1, rAX) > - ADC(rCX, rDX) > + ADC(rBX, rDX) > LOOP _nextpvd > > CALL16(srcherror(SB)) > /n/dump/2010/0407/usr/cinap_lenrek/code/tuttleboot/sys/src/boot/pc/bootiso.s:158,167 - bootiso.s:160,174 > JMP _loop > > TEXT BIOSread(SB), $0 > + > LWI(5, rDI) /* retry count (ATAPI ZIPs suck) */ > > _retry: > PUSHA > + PUSHS(rDS) > + PUSHS(rES) > + PUSHS(rFS) > + PUSHS(rGS) > > SBPW(rAX, Xdap+8) > SBPW(rDX, Xdap+10) > /n/dump/2010/0407/usr/cinap_lenrek/code/tuttleboot/sys/src/boot/pc/bootiso.s:170,187 - bootiso.s:177,195 > MW(rBP, rSI) > ADDI(Xbuf, rSI) > SBPW(rSI, Xdap+4) /* transfer buffer :offset */ > - MFSR(rES, rSI) /* transfer buffer seg: */ > + MFSR(rSS, rSI) /* transfer buffer seg: */ > SBPW(rSI, Xdap+6) > > MW(rBP, rSI) /* Xdap == BP */ > LBPB(Xdrive, rDL) > - LBI(0x42, rAH) > + LWI(0x4200, rAX) > + > BIOSCALL(0x13) > - JCC _popret > + JCC _readok > > _reset: > LWI((0x0E00+'?'), rAX) > - BIOSCALL(0x10) > + BIOSCALL(0x10) > > /* reset the drive */ > LBPB(Xdrive, rDL) > /n/dump/2010/0407/usr/cinap_lenrek/code/tuttleboot/sys/src/boot/pc/bootiso.s:188,194 - bootiso.s:196,207 > CLR(rAX) > BIOSCALL(0x13) > > + POPS(rGS) > + POPS(rFS) > + POPS(rES) > + POPS(rDS) > POPA > + > DEC(rDI) > JNE _retry > > /n/dump/2010/0407/usr/cinap_lenrek/code/tuttleboot/sys/src/boot/pc/bootiso.s:219,226 - bootiso.s:232,244 > POKEW /* MOVW AX, ES:[BX] */ > FARJUMP16(0xFFFF, 0x0000) > > - _popret: > + _readok: > + POPS(rGS) > + POPS(rFS) > + POPS(rES) > + POPS(rDS) > POPA > + > RET > > TEXT walk(SB), $0 > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-08 1:14 ` Iruata Souza @ 2010-04-08 14:29 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-08 15:05 ` David Leimbach 2010-04-08 18:11 ` ron minnich 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-08 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans at what point do we cry uncle and write an x86 16 bit loader/assembler? - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-08 14:29 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-08 15:05 ` David Leimbach 2010-04-08 19:18 ` Jorden M 2010-04-08 18:11 ` ron minnich 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: David Leimbach @ 2010-04-08 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 406 bytes --] On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:29 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote: > at what point do we cry uncle and write > an x86 16 bit loader/assembler? > > - erik > > I'd rather have an EFI loader working for Plan 9, but that's because i've got all these macs laying around now... (old 32bit iMac upstairs is just dying for some Plan 9). I wonder if it will boot with rEFIt though. Dave [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 731 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-08 15:05 ` David Leimbach @ 2010-04-08 19:18 ` Jorden M 0 siblings, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Jorden M @ 2010-04-08 19:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:35 AM, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote: > I wonder if it will boot with rEFIt though. > rEFIt is enough to fool all the other bootloaders. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-08 14:29 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-08 15:05 ` David Leimbach @ 2010-04-08 18:11 ` ron minnich 2010-04-08 18:17 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 1 reply; 109+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2010-04-08 18:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 2:29 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: > at what point do we cry uncle and write > an x86 16 bit loader/assembler? Never :-) I still like the current approach because it works but at the same time discourages people from using it :-) ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-08 18:11 ` ron minnich @ 2010-04-08 18:17 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-08 18:28 ` Federico G. Benavento 2010-04-08 19:05 ` ron minnich 0 siblings, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-08 18:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Never :-) > > I still like the current approach because it works but at the same > time discourages people from using it :-) i'm sorry, but that's fairly silly. should we also get rid of the assembler because we want to discourage its use? and clearly we have successfully minimized the amount of asm while having an assembler,. the amount of 16 bit code that currently exists would easily justify the effort in writing a proper assembler. and consider, interfacing with undi and other annoying tasks would be a heck of a lot easier with a proper 4a. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-08 18:17 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-08 18:28 ` Federico G. Benavento 2010-04-08 19:05 ` ron minnich 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: Federico G. Benavento @ 2010-04-08 18:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs didn't russ write a 8086 assembler? On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 3:17 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: >> Never :-) >> >> I still like the current approach because it works but at the same >> time discourages people from using it :-) > > i'm sorry, but that's fairly silly. > should we also get rid of the > assembler because we want to > discourage its use? and clearly > we have successfully minimized > the amount of asm while having > an assembler,. > > the amount of 16 bit code that > currently exists would easily justify > the effort in writing a proper assembler. > > and consider, interfacing with undi > and other annoying tasks would be a > heck of a lot easier with a proper 4a. > > - erik > > -- Federico G. Benavento ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-08 18:17 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-08 18:28 ` Federico G. Benavento @ 2010-04-08 19:05 ` ron minnich 2010-04-08 19:07 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-08 19:36 ` cinap_lenrek 1 sibling, 2 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2010-04-08 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs If it matters that much just port nasm. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-08 19:05 ` ron minnich @ 2010-04-08 19:07 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-08 19:36 ` cinap_lenrek 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-08 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Thu Apr 8 15:06:21 EDT 2010, rminnich@gmail.com wrote: > If it matters that much just port nasm. why would you prefer to port something with an alien syntax into the system? also, you'd need to link with regular .8s so at the end of the day, it would be easier to write 4a than to port nasm. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] bootiso.s fixed 2010-04-08 19:05 ` ron minnich 2010-04-08 19:07 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-08 19:36 ` cinap_lenrek 1 sibling, 0 replies; 109+ messages in thread From: cinap_lenrek @ 2010-04-08 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans i'm really sorry for this mail fuckup. that mail was intended to go to muzgo. was too lazy to remember his email address so i usually just search for muzgo in acme mail and clicked on the first hit and changed subject and mail body and then hitting reply without noticing the wrong address. with muzgos 9pcload kernel and a couple of few rc scripts 16 bit assembler will be kept on a absolute minimum. the biggest is pxe with 600 lines of assembly code but just because it switches the enviroment back to its entry state for the pxe bios calls. a real 16 bit assembler would have been nice and would have saved some time as it often happens that your jumps get too far away and then invalid opcodes are produced but you get used to it. bochs really is at great help here as it contains a debugger and disassembler. anyway. not mutch to tell. muzgo will announce it when its done. -- cinap ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 109+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2010-04-11 15:40 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 109+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2009-11-21 21:33 [9fans] using acme/Mail from plan9port in Linux Lorenzo Bolla 2009-11-21 22:27 ` Mathieu Lonjaret 2009-12-17 7:48 ` Jason Catena 2010-03-23 11:18 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-23 13:02 ` Mathieu Lonjaret 2010-03-23 13:27 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-23 13:37 ` Mathieu Lonjaret 2010-03-23 14:29 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-23 15:13 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-23 15:41 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-23 16:10 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-23 16:41 ` Russ Cox 2010-03-23 17:02 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-23 19:47 ` Russ Cox 2010-03-24 9:50 ` [9fans] VIA Rhine II support? EBo 2010-03-24 10:24 ` Federico G. Benavento 2010-03-25 18:56 ` Harri Haataja 2010-03-25 19:08 ` EBo 2010-03-24 9:59 ` [9fans] native install EBo 2010-03-24 14:56 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-24 15:17 ` Richard Miller 2010-03-24 15:22 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2010-03-24 16:00 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-24 16:05 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-24 19:18 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-03-24 19:48 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-24 20:17 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) 2010-03-24 21:49 ` David du Colombier 2010-04-09 19:36 ` Tom West 2010-04-09 20:20 ` EBo 2010-04-10 2:26 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-10 9:21 ` Gabriel Diaz 2010-04-10 12:54 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-10 16:28 ` Gabriel Diaz 2010-04-10 19:38 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-11 12:37 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-04-11 15:36 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-11 15:37 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-04-11 15:40 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-24 20:11 ` EBo 2010-03-24 20:19 ` John Floren 2010-03-24 20:41 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 1:21 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-25 1:35 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 11:15 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-25 13:25 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 10:28 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-25 15:43 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 13:37 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-25 18:58 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 20:04 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-25 22:34 ` Jorden Mauro 2010-03-26 6:00 ` Federico G. Benavento 2010-03-25 14:10 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-25 1:52 ` Maht 2010-03-25 2:05 ` Federico G. Benavento 2010-03-24 22:34 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2010-03-24 15:23 ` andrey mirtchovski 2010-03-28 14:32 ` Georg Lehner 2010-03-28 14:39 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-29 19:57 ` Georg Lehner 2010-03-29 20:21 ` michael block 2010-03-28 14:44 ` maht 2010-03-29 20:07 ` Georg Lehner 2010-03-29 20:16 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-29 22:38 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-29 20:52 ` maht 2010-03-29 20:58 ` Corey 2010-03-29 20:57 ` ron minnich 2010-03-29 21:09 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-30 0:20 ` [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) Corey 2010-03-30 0:24 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-30 1:21 ` Corey 2010-03-30 2:02 ` Iruata Souza 2010-03-30 2:07 ` Jacob Todd 2010-03-30 6:41 ` Corey 2010-03-30 2:17 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-30 3:10 ` Rahul Murmuria 2010-03-30 18:23 ` Jack Johnson 2010-03-30 18:25 ` Jack Johnson 2010-03-30 18:44 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-04-01 10:13 ` [9fans] Plan ? William Cowan 2010-03-30 9:28 ` [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install) Steve Simon 2010-03-30 10:19 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-30 10:33 ` Gabriel Diaz Lopez de la Llave 2010-03-30 10:40 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-30 11:40 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2010-03-30 12:20 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-30 12:34 ` Steve Simon 2010-03-30 13:28 ` tlaronde 2010-03-30 13:45 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-30 17:07 ` Albert Skye 2010-03-30 17:13 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-30 18:09 ` Nick LaForge 2010-03-30 18:03 ` tlaronde 2010-03-30 2:11 ` Iruata Souza 2010-04-07 22:52 ` [9fans] bootiso.s fixed cinap_lenrek 2010-04-08 0:08 ` ron minnich 2010-04-08 15:04 ` David Leimbach 2010-04-08 1:14 ` Iruata Souza 2010-04-08 14:29 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-08 15:05 ` David Leimbach 2010-04-08 19:18 ` Jorden M 2010-04-08 18:11 ` ron minnich 2010-04-08 18:17 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-08 18:28 ` Federico G. Benavento 2010-04-08 19:05 ` ron minnich 2010-04-08 19:07 ` erik quanstrom 2010-04-08 19:36 ` cinap_lenrek
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