[9fans] making yourself at home

[9fans] making yourself at home

[Frank Lenaerts]

Hi,

After installing Plan 9 on a standalone machine, adding a user,
configuring the network, wandering around a bit, reading some
manpages, ... I have a few questions for which I didn't find an
answer. They seem stupid, so I might have missed some important
documentation. If so, just point me to the docs, if not, an
explanation is welcome;-)

Here are my questions:

- Living in Belgium, I copied /adm/timezone/CET to
  /adm/timezone/local. However, time is still off by 2 hours. It seems
  that the system is using GMT (normally, CET = GMT + 1; in summertime
  (now), CET = GMT + 2). Is the CET file "wrong" or so?

- After creating a new user, the new user does not (yet) have a
  password. Apparently, I cannot use auth/changeuser because I don't
  have an auth server (the system is setup as a "terminal" whereas I
  would normally consider it a "workstation") and passwd gives me
  "protocol botch: cs: can't translate service".

- How do I logout to let another user login?

- Is there something like "su" to let me be someone else in another
  window?

- How do I stop rio to get to textmode?

- Can I somehow lock the screen?

- I noticed that users glenda, adm and none don't have a password (by
  default). These users can however change the timezone, reboot the
  machine, ...

- What is the purpose of the different users like (a) glenda (seems to
  be hostowner, can create users, etc.), (b) adm, (c) none?

  [*] is part of the sys group but could not change /rc/bin/termrc
  because he couldn't write to /tmp (no profile like a normal user
  binding /tmp to /home/tmp; I suppose he can do this interactively)

- Is there something like virtual consoles to allow e.g.  several
  users to login simultaneously and each starting a graphical
  environment?

- Is there something like a plain "mount" command, just to see all
  bindings?


cu,

--
Frank Lenaerts ---------------------------------------- frank@inua.be

Re: [9fans] making yourself at home

[Gabriel Diaz]

hello

i tried to answer your questions one by one, but will choose to do it
the short way:

http://cm.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/

take a look to this man pages too:
ns(1)
bind(1)
timesync(8)

that will explain your security and multi-user questions, the mount
question and may be fixes your time problems.

slds

gabi


On 6/7/07, Frank Lenaerts <frank@inua.be> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> After installing Plan 9 on a standalone machine, adding a user,
> configuring the network, wandering around a bit, reading some
> manpages, ... I have a few questions for which I didn't find an
> answer. They seem stupid, so I might have missed some important
> documentation. If so, just point me to the docs, if not, an
> explanation is welcome;-)
>




> Here are my questions:
>
> - Living in Belgium, I copied /adm/timezone/CET to
>   /adm/timezone/local. However, time is still off by 2 hours. It seems
>   that the system is using GMT (normally, CET = GMT + 1; in summertime
>   (now), CET = GMT + 2). Is the CET file "wrong" or so?
>
> - After creating a new user, the new user does not (yet) have a
>   password. Apparently, I cannot use auth/changeuser because I don't
>   have an auth server (the system is setup as a "terminal" whereas I
>   would normally consider it a "workstation") and passwd gives me
>   "protocol botch: cs: can't translate service".
>
> - How do I logout to let another user login?
>
> - Is there something like "su" to let me be someone else in another
>   window?
>
> - How do I stop rio to get to textmode?
>
> - Can I somehow lock the screen?
>
> - I noticed that users glenda, adm and none don't have a password (by
>   default). These users can however change the timezone, reboot the
>   machine, ...
>
> - What is the purpose of the different users like (a) glenda (seems to
>   be hostowner, can create users, etc.), (b) adm, (c) none?
>
>   [*] is part of the sys group but could not change /rc/bin/termrc
>   because he couldn't write to /tmp (no profile like a normal user
>   binding /tmp to /home/tmp; I suppose he can do this interactively)
>
> - Is there something like virtual consoles to allow e.g.  several
>   users to login simultaneously and each starting a graphical
>   environment?
>
> - Is there something like a plain "mount" command, just to see all
>   bindings?
>
>
> cu,
>
> --
> Frank Lenaerts ---------------------------------------- frank@inua.be
>
>

Re: [9fans] making yourself at home

[Frank Lenaerts]

On Fri, Jun 08, 2007 at 12:05:49AM +0200, Gabriel Diaz wrote:
> hello

Hello,

> i tried to answer your questions one by one, but will choose to do it
> the short way:
>
> http://cm.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/

I have read some of the documents but not all of them like "getting
started" docs;-)

> take a look to this man pages too:
> ns(1)

Ok, thanks, missed this one.

> bind(1)

Read about that one.

> timesync(8)

Had not seen this one. First used it to sync with a local NTP proxy,
which worked fine but of course didn't "survive" a reboot. Then wanted
to add the command to /rc/bin/termrc and noticed that the termrc
script used the -r option in TIMESYNCARGS. As this system has always
been running Debian GNU/Linux, the system clock was in GMT instead of
local time. Removed the -r and now the mapping is ok.

Is there actually something like hwclock (to directly set, read the HW
clock) in Plan 9?

> that will explain your security and multi-user questions, the mount
> question and may be fixes your time problems.
>
> slds

Kind regards,

> gabi

Frank

> On 6/7/07, Frank Lenaerts <frank@inua.be> wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >After installing Plan 9 on a standalone machine, adding a user,
> >configuring the network, wandering around a bit, reading some
> >manpages, ... I have a few questions for which I didn't find an
> >answer. They seem stupid, so I might have missed some important
> >documentation. If so, just point me to the docs, if not, an
> >explanation is welcome;-)
> >
>
>
>
>
> >Here are my questions:
> >
> >- Living in Belgium, I copied /adm/timezone/CET to
> >  /adm/timezone/local. However, time is still off by 2 hours. It seems
> >  that the system is using GMT (normally, CET = GMT + 1; in summertime
> >  (now), CET = GMT + 2). Is the CET file "wrong" or so?
> >
> >- After creating a new user, the new user does not (yet) have a
> >  password. Apparently, I cannot use auth/changeuser because I don't
> >  have an auth server (the system is setup as a "terminal" whereas I
> >  would normally consider it a "workstation") and passwd gives me
> >  "protocol botch: cs: can't translate service".
> >
> >- How do I logout to let another user login?
> >
> >- Is there something like "su" to let me be someone else in another
> >  window?
> >
> >- How do I stop rio to get to textmode?
> >
> >- Can I somehow lock the screen?
> >
> >- I noticed that users glenda, adm and none don't have a password (by
> >  default). These users can however change the timezone, reboot the
> >  machine, ...
> >
> >- What is the purpose of the different users like (a) glenda (seems to
> >  be hostowner, can create users, etc.), (b) adm, (c) none?
> >
> >  [*] is part of the sys group but could not change /rc/bin/termrc
> >  because he couldn't write to /tmp (no profile like a normal user
> >  binding /tmp to /home/tmp; I suppose he can do this interactively)
> >
> >- Is there something like virtual consoles to allow e.g.  several
> >  users to login simultaneously and each starting a graphical
> >  environment?
> >
> >- Is there something like a plain "mount" command, just to see all
> >  bindings?
> >
> >
> >cu,
> >
> >--
> >Frank Lenaerts ---------------------------------------- frank@inua.be
> >
> >

--
Frank Lenaerts ---------------------------------------- frank@inua.be

Re: [9fans] making yourself at home

[Richard Miller]

> Is there actually something like hwclock (to directly set, read the HW
> clock) in Plan 9?

rtc(3)

The cpurc script sets the hardware clock after starting timesync:

	awk '{print $1}' /dev/time >'#r/rtc'	# fix hw clock

Re: [9fans] making yourself at home

[erik quanstrom]

On Thu Jun  7 17:50:18 EDT 2007, frank@inua.be wrote:
> - Living in Belgium, I copied /adm/timezone/CET to
>   /adm/timezone/local. However, time is still off by 2 hours. It seems
>   that the system is using GMT (normally, CET = GMT + 1; in summertime
>   (now), CET = GMT + 2). Is the CET file "wrong" or so?

the file looks correct at 1hr ahead of gmt (and 2hrs ahead for dst).
time timezone data is copied to the environment for use.  so
you will have to cp /adm/timezone/local /env/timezone or reboot
to get the effect.

> - How do I logout to let another user login?

reboot.

>
> - Is there something like "su" to let me be someone else in another
>   window?

no.  you can cpu as another user, but you have a terminal, not a cpu server.
you can't cpu to a terminal.

> - How do I stop rio to get to textmode?

slay rio|rc

> - Can I somehow lock the screen?

reboot. ;-)

> - I noticed that users glenda, adm and none don't have a password (by
>   default). These users can however change the timezone, reboot the
>   machine, ...
>
> - What is the purpose of the different users like (a) glenda (seems to
>   be hostowner, can create users, etc.), (b) adm, (c) none?
>
>   [*] is part of the sys group but could not change /rc/bin/termrc
>   because he couldn't write to /tmp (no profile like a normal user
>   binding /tmp to /home/tmp; I suppose he can do this interactively)

there are many things about a standalone environment that aren't
ideal.  you're noticing some of them.  in a full plan 9 environment,
the idea is that a terminal doesn't have anything special on it.
if you boot it, it's your machine.  the files are on the fileserver which
would protect stuff like /adm/timezone/local from being changed.
and the authentication would be taken care of by the auth server.

>
> - Is there something like virtual consoles to allow e.g.  several
>   users to login simultaneously and each starting a graphical
>   environment?

the cpu command.  you need a cpu server for that.

>
> - Is there something like a plain "mount" command, just to see all
>   bindings?

ns.

- erik

Re: [9fans] making yourself at home

[Frank Lenaerts]

On Thu, Jun 07, 2007 at 06:09:10PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote:
> > - How do I logout to let another user login?
>
> reboot.

Ok, but it just sounds strange for someone who has only been using
Unix-like systems for the last 10 years.

> > - Is there something like "su" to let me be someone else in another
> >   window?
>
> no.  you can cpu as another user, but you have a terminal, not a cpu server.
> you can't cpu to a terminal.

Ok, so a terminal is really a single-user "terminal", unlike a
"workstation".

> > - Can I somehow lock the screen?
>
> reboot. ;-)

Hmmm, ... I'm used to say that a machine should only be powered on
once and that you should login only once ... so rebooting is not an
option.

Someone else mentionned a lock program but I wonder if it is possible
to persist your session so that you can power off the terminal and
continue (possibly even on another terminal) where you left off last
time (much like hot desking or leaving a VNC session running on a
server).

> there are many things about a standalone environment that aren't
> ideal.  you're noticing some of them.  in a full plan 9 environment,
> the idea is that a terminal doesn't have anything special on it.
> if you boot it, it's your machine.  the files are on the fileserver which
> would protect stuff like /adm/timezone/local from being changed.
> and the authentication would be taken care of by the auth server.

Ok, the only reason I started playing with a standalone PC, is to get
some initial basic hands-on experience.

The long term plan would be to setup an auth-, a CPU- and a
file-server and to use thin clients as terminals. However, I don't
know yet (a) if the AMD Geode based thin clients I have are supported
and (b) how to configure the server(s) to let them boot via PXE.

> > - Is there something like virtual consoles to allow e.g.  several
> >   users to login simultaneously and each starting a graphical
> >   environment?
>
> the cpu command.  you need a cpu server for that.

I'll start with the setup of an auth/CPU/fileserver and then a thin
client to see how all of this works.

> - erik

--
Frank Lenaerts ---------------------------------------- frank@inua.be

Re: [9fans] making yourself at home

[john]

> On Thu, Jun 07, 2007 at 06:09:10PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote:
>> > - How do I logout to let another user login?
>>
>> reboot.
>
> Ok, but it just sounds strange for someone who has only been using
> Unix-like systems for the last 10 years.
>

It does sound strange, but as long as your terminals don't spend forever
POSTing it can work okay. I seem to have the bad luck of only running
Plan 9 on machines that apparently check RAM, check processor, check
devices, and send out for pizza before they'll actually start *booting*.
My old IBM cpu/auth/file machine was really bad this way.

>> > - Is there something like "su" to let me be someone else in another
>> >   window?
>>
>> no.  you can cpu as another user, but you have a terminal, not a cpu server.
>> you can't cpu to a terminal.
>
> Ok, so a terminal is really a single-user "terminal", unlike a
> "workstation".
>
>> > - Can I somehow lock the screen?
>>
>> reboot. ;-)
>
> Hmmm, ... I'm used to say that a machine should only be powered on
> once and that you should login only once ... so rebooting is not an
> option.
>

Again, like everyone says, you really can't use Plan 9 properly unless
you've got at least a cpu/auth/file server and one terminal. This is
kind of an annoyance for us hobbyists, but I guess it's just a side
affect of building a system with Plan 9's capabilities.

Good luck, have fun, and don't let the trolls bite


John Floren
(now back to scheming about getting some terminals for the Plan
9 server)

Re: [9fans] making yourself at home

[lucio]

>> reboot.
>
> Ok, but it just sounds strange for someone who has only been using
> Unix-like systems for the last 10 years.
>
Strange, but harmless.  More practical and trustowrthy than Windows'
Ctrl-Alt-Del.

> Ok, so a terminal is really a single-user "terminal", unlike a
> "workstation".
>
You can see the additional security in that, can't you?

> Hmmm, ... I'm used to say that a machine should only be powered on
> once and that you should login only once ... so rebooting is not an
> option.
>
Things change...  Note that in Plan 9 terminals and their users are
not tightly coupled.  None of the terminals ought to be customised to
a user's requirements or, putting it a different way, all of them are.
So "logging off" leaves the terminal where someone else can make use
of it.  Windows has a complex system to provide this type of "roaming
profile" and it's a nightmare, Plan 9 has it built in right at the
grass-root level and it works faultlessy.

> The long term plan would be to setup an auth-, a CPU- and a
> file-server and to use thin clients as terminals. However, I don't
> know yet (a) if the AMD Geode based thin clients I have are supported
> and (b) how to configure the server(s) to let them boot via PXE.
>
I think Ron Minnich has done a lot of work with the Geode, he may be
able to guide you there.

> I'll start with the setup of an auth/CPU/fileserver and then a thin
> client to see how all of this works.
>
That would be my choice, too, except I chose to run AUTH separately a
long time ago and I still am not sure that it wasn't overkill.  I
regret believing that AUTH can run on a 386: it does, but it's not
wise, every time you run AWK on a machine without floating point
hardware you crash it.  That gets irritating.

++L

Re: [9fans] making yourself at home

[Charles Forsyth]

>> Ok, so a terminal is really a single-user "terminal", unlike a
>> "workstation".

my linux workstation is also single user, but it gets me to type my password quite often.
that's certainly terminal.

Re: [9fans] making yourself at home

[Kris Maglione]

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In addition to what gabi posted, try the FAQ 
(http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/FAQ/index.html).

>- After creating a new user, the new user does not (yet) have a
>  password. Apparently, I cannot use auth/changeuser because I don't
>  have an auth server (the system is setup as a "terminal" whereas I
>  would normally consider it a "workstation") and passwd gives me
>  "protocol botch: cs: can't translate service".

You need to setup your ndb to recognize the auth server for your host, 
and you need to run one, as well (terminals, by default, don't. See the 
wiki page 'Drawterm to your Terminal').

>- How do I logout to let another user login?

As quanstro said, reboot.

>- Is there something like "su" to let me be someone else in another
>  window?

There's auth/login (auth(8)), or you can CPU to the same host.

>- How do I stop rio to get to textmode?

Again, slay rio|rc, but I don't know why you'd want to do it.

>- Can I somehow lock the screen?

You could run a shim before you start rio, or edit rio. There is a 
screen lock program in /n/sources/patch/sorry, and probably one or two 
in contrib.

>- I noticed that users glenda, adm and none don't have a password (by
>  default). These users can however change the timezone, reboot the
>  machine, ...

Whoever starts the terminal is the hostowner. He can do things like 
rebooting it. When you run an auth server, it performs authentication 
for filesystems, and, by proxy, CPU servers. Only the hostowner can 
reboot the system, for instance, so you can't just CPU to tip9ug and 
reboot it.

>- What is the purpose of the different users like (a) glenda (seems to
>  be hostowner, can create users, etc.), (b) adm, (c) none?

See above.

>  [*] is part of the sys group but could not change /rc/bin/termrc
>  because he couldn't write to /tmp (no profile like a normal user
>  binding /tmp to /home/tmp; I suppose he can do this interactively)

Running ramfs, for instance, would serve the purpose. Fortunately, Plan 
9 doesn't have the /tmp mess that Unix has. Users bind their own tmp 
directories over /tmp.

>- Is there something like virtual consoles to allow e.g.  several
>  users to login simultaneously and each starting a graphical
>  environment?

No. You could run multiple rios, or alter rio in some way to simulate 
it, easily enough.

>- Is there something like a plain "mount" command, just to see all
>  bindings?

cat /proc/$pid/ns

-- 
Kris Maglione


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Re: [9fans] making yourself at home

[Federico Benavento]

hola,

I think most of your question has been already answered, but anyways

On 6/7/07, Frank Lenaerts <frank@inua.be> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> After installing Plan 9 on a standalone machine, adding a user,
> configuring the network, wandering around a bit, reading some
> manpages, ... I have a few questions for which I didn't find an
> answer. They seem stupid, so I might have missed some important
> documentation. If so, just point me to the docs, if not, an
> explanation is welcome;-)
>

welcome to Plan 9!


> - Is there something like "su" to let me be someone else in another
>   window?
>
why do you want to be someone else? isn't good enough being yourself? ;)

> - Can I somehow lock the screen?
>

the screen lock prg the guys mentioned is at /n/sources/patch/sorry/robs-bits/

> - I noticed that users glenda, adm and none don't have a password (by
>   default). These users can however change the timezone, reboot the
>   machine, ...
>
password to access the machine you just booted?
of course you can run rob's lock prg in your termrc, but what would be
the point,
stopping your children from playing with Plan 9?, but that could be a great
learning experience for them :)

> - What is the purpose of the different users like (a) glenda (seems to
>   be hostowner, can create users, etc.), (b) adm, (c) none?
>
>   [*] is part of the sys group but could not change /rc/bin/termrc
>   because he couldn't write to /tmp (no profile like a normal user
>   binding /tmp to /home/tmp; I suppose he can do this interactively)
>

you didn't run /sys/lib/newuser after you created your user, that's why
you didn't get a $home/lib/profile that binds $home/tmp over /tmp


> - Is there something like virtual consoles to allow e.g.  several
>   users to login simultaneously and each starting a graphical
>   environment?
>
you'd better make your machine into a cpu/auth server or allow drawterming
to it.

> - Is there something like a plain "mount" command, just to see all
>   bindings?
>
ns(1)

>
> cu,

cu == means "butt" in some weird latin language

have a good day

--
Federico G. Benavento