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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, at 10:18 AM, Keith Gibbs wrote: >=20 > And tools die or are replaced over time. 8 1=E2=81=842 was the standard = in Plan 9, but due to it=E2=80=99s limitations and quirks, a new one was wr= itten from scratch. Now we, 30 years later, are arguing that every line of = code handed down from our honoured and sainted forebears is gospel truth? R= eally?=20 Oh dear! This old argument is getting heated again? I don't miss the old fl= ame wars. But I think the old wars had a somewhat different motive. Some = people argued furiously for the "One True Plan 9" and against forks, but as= soon as the last Plan 9 maintainer left the remains of Bell Labs, most of = them just stopped posting. (So did some nicer people.) They were evidentl= y arguing for a maintained system, but they also seemed to be opposed to al= most all change. Perhaps they were opposed to all change which didn't suit= themselves, but the more I recall, the less rational these people seem to = be. Sometimes, they'd even be furious with someone for doing the very thin= g they'd told him to do. "If you want it, do it yourself," so the person w= ould put a lot of effort in to do it, and then they'd be furious with him. = The earliest such incident I know of goes back to the very people who deve= loped Plan 9. With this history, I don't particularly want to honor the or= iginal Plan 9 and would hate to see the wars rekindled. All the same, there is a surprising practical consideration: > I think what you are confusing is that since I (and many others, whether = on the 9front side or no) want to see Plan 9 evolve and grow, that somehow = that will ruin *your* Plan 9. Unfortunately, this is a more difficult issue than you might think. If som= eone is reliant on a particular fork and doesn't have the time, energy, or = skills to make alterations as needed, they can be hurt by changes, even sur= prisingly small changes. Changing Rio's scrolling behaviour might be trivi= al, but at a time when I was heavily dependent on a particular scrolling be= haviour, 9front changed it and I had no free time or energy to even think a= bout how to change it back. I switched to an older version of Rio, but the= n I missed a different fix 9front had made. The more I think about it, the more I think I'd like 9legacy's approach of = patches over a relatively static system, but I haven't actually tried it an= d I certainly wouldn't want to limit anyone else's choices. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6899bf3f0654295d-M284a3= 9c35a7dc1abec2c8cb8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --f3620a32048e4ecc9fc96e25454ca05f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, at 10:18 AM, Keith Gibbs wrote:

And tools die or are replaced over tim= e.  8 1⁄2 was the standard in Plan 9, but due t= o it’s limitations and quirks, a new one was written from s= cratch. Now we, 30 years later, are arguing that every line of code handed = down from our honoured and sainted forebears is gospel truth? Really? =

Oh dear! This old argument is getting heated again?= I don't miss the old flame wars.  But I think the old wars had a = somewhat different motive.  Some people argued furiously for the "= ;One True Plan 9" and against forks, but as soon as the last Plan 9 ma= intainer left the remains of Bell Labs, most of them just stopped posting.&= nbsp; (So did some nicer people.)  They were evidently arguing for a m= aintained system, but they also seemed to be opposed to almost all change.&= nbsp; Perhaps they were opposed to all change which didn't suit themsel= ves, but the more I recall, the less rational these people seem to be. = ; Sometimes, they'd even be furious with someone for doing the very thi= ng they'd told him to do.  "If you want it, do it yourself,&q= uot; so the person would put a lot of effort in to do it, and then they'= ;d be furious with him.  The earliest such incident I know of goe= s back to the very people who developed Plan 9.  With this history, I = don't particularly want to honor the original Plan 9 and would hate to = see the wars rekindled.

=
All the same, there is a surprising= practical consideration:

I think what you are confusing is that since I (and= many others, whether on the 9front side or no) want to see Plan 9 evolve a= nd grow, that somehow that will ruin *your* Plan 9.

Unfortunately, this is a more difficult issue than you might think.&n= bsp; If someone is reliant on a particular fork and doesn't have the ti= me, energy, or skills to make alterations as needed, they can be hurt by ch= anges, even surprisingly small changes.  Changing Rio's scrolling = behaviour might be trivial, but at a time when I was heavily dependent on a= particular scrolling behaviour, 9front changed it and I had no free t= ime or energy to even think about how to change it back.  I switched t= o an older version of Rio, but then I missed a different fix 9front had mad= e.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'd like= 9legacy's approach of patches over a relatively static system, but I h= aven't actually tried it and I certainly wouldn't want to limit any= one else's choices.
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