Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

[vic.thacker@fastmail.fm]

Firstly, congratulations to Lucio on the progress with getting Fossil running under 9front. A heartfelt thank you to everyone who offered their support and assistance to make this possible!  I only say this as a person who wants to celebrate successes.

FWIW, I’d like to help clarify the additional requests that Lucio has made to address each point effectively on a separate thread.  Here are Lucio’s requests, organized by topic:

Canonical Version of Fossil

    Unified Version: There is a need for a single, "canonical" version of Fossil to avoid confusion and fragmentation. Multiple versions can complicate usage and development.

Inclusion of Sources in Distributions

    Key Source Inclusion: Including important sources like Fossil in the 9front distribution is crucial. Excluding these sources can lead to decisions made by a few contributors affecting all users, especially those unaware of the exclusions.

9legacy Boot and Installation

    USB Boot and Installation: For 9legacy, it’s essential to enable it to boot, install, and run from a USB stick on any PC hardware, with support for both IDE and SATA. This would enhance accessibility and user-friendliness.

SSH2 Implementation

    Plan 9 Legacy: Lucio is encountering challenges in getting SSH2 to work in his Plan 9 legacy setup. Finding the right combination of patches has been difficult. Guidance or collaboration to achieve a stable implementation would be greatly appreciated.

Cryptography and Security

    Secure Communication Tools: Discussions about cryptography have been enlightening, but implementing and maintaining secure communication tools like SSH and ssh-agent remains challenging. Support in this area would be beneficial.

Version Control with Fossil and PostgreSQL

    Integration: Lucio is considering integrating "the other Fossil" with PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite. This is complex, and any advice or assistance from experienced members would be invaluable.

Porting and Updating Tools

    OpenLDAP Tools: Lucio has ported OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and uses them regularly, but they are based on an older version. Investigating the latest build options and updating these tools would be beneficial.
    Graphviz Update: Updating Graphviz past its early version to ensure better functionality and compatibility would help those relying on it.

Licensing and Legal Support

    Legal Advice: Given the local culture of "sanction busting" and the rarity of IP prosecutions where Lucio lives, he hasn’t paid much attention to licensing. P9F could play a crucial role in providing legal advice and support to ensure adherence to licensing requirements.

I hope you find this useful.

Vic


On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 13:46, Lucio De Re wrote:
> If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your
> interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy
> learning, at our country's expense.
>
> I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me
> (and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical"
> version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from
> the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment.
>
> My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not included
> in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by arbitrary
> (non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not even know
> about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad enough?
>
> I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what
> "I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick
> on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my
> rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy.
> Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able
> to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me,
> so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty pointless effort,
> but I know I can do it, with sufficient application, it is no longer lost
> or teetering on edge of the abyss.
>
> As for the cryptography angle, that was an eye opener for sure and for
> many, apparently. On my part, I still don't have SSH2 working from my own
> Plan 9 "legacy", I haven't been able to shoehorn the right combination of
> 9legacy patches into it. It is surprising that I haven't broken it entirely
> and I know I came close to doing that on occasion. I had a working version
> of ssh-agent working smoothly on my system, both for Plan 9 and P9P (both
> Linux and NetBSD), but a hardware failure exposed my lack of discipline and
> I haven't had the need or fortitude to recover the working "branch" from
> Git, that version control is too complicated for me to feel comfortable
> with it, I use it only under duress. Now, after suggestions on this forum
> that support my impressions, I want to look at bringing "the other Fossil"
> on board using PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite.
> Don't hold your breath, though.
>
> One more point, but I may raise more later, seeing that there is a claimed
> interest in how others use the generic Plan 9 platform: I long ago ported
> the OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and I continually use them to access remote
> directories with them from a scrappy rc shell script. I noted only recently
> that the OpenLDAP distribution has an option to build only the tools and
> library, which vindicates my approach which happened rather
> serendipitously. I need to investigate that further, my version of the tool
> I think goes back to 2.3 or thereabouts. Graphviz I have also been unable
> to promote past a very early version, but it works quite nicely for my
> occasional use of Dot.
>
> Let me point out also that I have paid absolutely no attention to licencing
> requirements; where I live the culture remains that of "sanction busting"
> from the Apartheid era and IP prosecutions don't seem to occur very often.
> I do think that P9F would be kept quite busy assisting those of us that may
> need legal advice or assistance and in some respects I think that role
> would be beneficial to all of us - including myself - and it seems a role
> that P9F is already playing. Just my impression, of course, but earlier
> discussion does bring that to mind.
>
> In short: I totally agree with Ian, we are responsible for what and how
> gets discussed here.
>
> Lucio.
>
> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 1:20 AM michaelian ennis <michaelian.ennis@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On May 14, 2024, at 12:07, tlaronde@kergis.com wrote:
>> > M
>> > This is another illustration of "The Mythical Man-Month".
>> 
>> There were many lessons from “The Mythical Man Month” that seem glaringly
>> missing from management decisions during those days. It was shocking. There
>> were other more perplexing oddities too in the decision making process.
>> 
>> I have much to say about the topic but this is perhaps not the right
>> place. Perhaps it is not my place at all.
>> 
>> The VC years have a cartoonish character to them that seemed to be filled
>> with an unlimited supply of “Wait, we’re doing what?” moments. Yes I’m
>> looking at you boombox.
>> 
>> What I think is relevant here is that even the plan9 engineers on
>> different coasts seemed to get divided by details not unlike the recent
>> discussions’ beginnings. This didn’t help win arguments about product
>> direction.
>> 
>> Then there was me just always bitching about Fred Brooks, or ways in which
>> the cli was inconsistent, full of “we should”s and “we shouldn’t”s and
>> noticing when I was right in dissent more than when I was wrong. So there’s
>> that.
>> 
>> In some possible universes _that_ Coraid thrived
>> but they are not ones where where new voices weren’t heard or old ones
>> were ignored.
>> 
>> The flurries of traffic on this list often seem to have a negative tone to
>> me.  It means a lot to me when the conversations are supportive.
>> 
>> I hope this recent activity continues on as more collaborative
>> conversations.  Nobody joins this list who isn’t interested in
>> participating somehow.  Let’s not shut them down.
>> 
>> Ian
>> 
> 
> 
> --
> Lucio De Re
> 2 Piet Retief St
> Kestell (Eastern Free State)
> 9860 South Africa
> 
> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
> Cell: +27 83 251 5824

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