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Wed, 15 May 2024 01:56:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-455-g0aad06e44-fm-20240509.001-g0aad06e4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <4FB3A3BB-1CFA-4BC7-9DC2-CC9138B8325C@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 14:55:53 +0900 From: vic.thacker@fastmail.fm To: "leimy2k via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: dea2b4e2-127f-11ef-9668-8ba3058c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UOWJmNDBlOTQ0OGM4NzhhYi1NMGEwN2Q3NzU0M2ExNzNiOTM1YTQw?= =?UTF-8?B?ZjZjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M0a07d77543a173b935a40f6c:1:wEk2PT_cfKM87XXxP-cdGUQRVw2dfG-V4kCLS8DgwPI Firstly, congratulations to Lucio on the progress with getting Fossil runni= ng under 9front. A heartfelt thank you to everyone who offered their suppor= t and assistance to make this possible! I only say this as a person who wa= nts to celebrate successes. FWIW, I=E2=80=99d like to help clarify the additional requests that Lucio h= as made to address each point effectively on a separate thread. Here are L= ucio=E2=80=99s requests, organized by topic: Canonical Version of Fossil Unified Version: There is a need for a single, "canonical" version of F= ossil to avoid confusion and fragmentation. Multiple versions can complicat= e usage and development. Inclusion of Sources in Distributions Key Source Inclusion: Including important sources like Fossil in the 9f= ront distribution is crucial. Excluding these sources can lead to decisions= made by a few contributors affecting all users, especially those unaware o= f the exclusions. 9legacy Boot and Installation USB Boot and Installation: For 9legacy, it=E2=80=99s essential to enabl= e it to boot, install, and run from a USB stick on any PC hardware, with su= pport for both IDE and SATA. This would enhance accessibility and user-frie= ndliness. SSH2 Implementation Plan 9 Legacy: Lucio is encountering challenges in getting SSH2 to work= in his Plan 9 legacy setup. Finding the right combination of patches has b= een difficult. Guidance or collaboration to achieve a stable implementation= would be greatly appreciated. Cryptography and Security Secure Communication Tools: Discussions about cryptography have been en= lightening, but implementing and maintaining secure communication tools lik= e SSH and ssh-agent remains challenging. Support in this area would be bene= ficial. Version Control with Fossil and PostgreSQL Integration: Lucio is considering integrating "the other Fossil" with P= ostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite. This is complex,= and any advice or assistance from experienced members would be invaluable. Porting and Updating Tools OpenLDAP Tools: Lucio has ported OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and uses them= regularly, but they are based on an older version. Investigating the lates= t build options and updating these tools would be beneficial. Graphviz Update: Updating Graphviz past its early version to ensure bet= ter functionality and compatibility would help those relying on it. Licensing and Legal Support Legal Advice: Given the local culture of "sanction busting" and the rar= ity of IP prosecutions where Lucio lives, he hasn=E2=80=99t paid much atten= tion to licensing. P9F could play a crucial role in providing legal advice = and support to ensure adherence to licensing requirements. I hope you find this useful. Vic On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 13:46, Lucio De Re wrote: > If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your > interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy > learning, at our country's expense. > > I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me > (and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical" > version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from > the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment. > > My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not includ= ed > in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by arbitrary > (non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not even know > about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad enough? > > I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what > "I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB sti= ck > on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my > rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy. > Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able > to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me, > so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty pointless effor= t, > but I know I can do it, with sufficient application, it is no longer lost > or teetering on edge of the abyss. > > As for the cryptography angle, that was an eye opener for sure and for > many, apparently. On my part, I still don't have SSH2 working from my own > Plan 9 "legacy", I haven't been able to shoehorn the right combination of > 9legacy patches into it. It is surprising that I haven't broken it entire= ly > and I know I came close to doing that on occasion. I had a working version > of ssh-agent working smoothly on my system, both for Plan 9 and P9P (both > Linux and NetBSD), but a hardware failure exposed my lack of discipline a= nd > I haven't had the need or fortitude to recover the working "branch" from > Git, that version control is too complicated for me to feel comfortable > with it, I use it only under duress. Now, after suggestions on this forum > that support my impressions, I want to look at bringing "the other Fossil" > on board using PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite. > Don't hold your breath, though. > > One more point, but I may raise more later, seeing that there is a claimed > interest in how others use the generic Plan 9 platform: I long ago ported > the OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and I continually use them to access remote > directories with them from a scrappy rc shell script. I noted only recent= ly > that the OpenLDAP distribution has an option to build only the tools and > library, which vindicates my approach which happened rather > serendipitously. I need to investigate that further, my version of the to= ol > I think goes back to 2.3 or thereabouts. Graphviz I have also been unable > to promote past a very early version, but it works quite nicely for my > occasional use of Dot. > > Let me point out also that I have paid absolutely no attention to licenci= ng > requirements; where I live the culture remains that of "sanction busting" > from the Apartheid era and IP prosecutions don't seem to occur very often. > I do think that P9F would be kept quite busy assisting those of us that m= ay > need legal advice or assistance and in some respects I think that role > would be beneficial to all of us - including myself - and it seems a role > that P9F is already playing. Just my impression, of course, but earlier > discussion does bring that to mind. > > In short: I totally agree with Ian, we are responsible for what and how > gets discussed here. > > Lucio. > > On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 1:20=E2=80=AFAM michaelian ennis > wrote: > >> >> >> > On May 14, 2024, at 12:07, tlaronde@kergis.com wrote: >> > M >> > This is another illustration of "The Mythical Man-Month". >>=20 >> There were many lessons from =E2=80=9CThe Mythical Man Month=E2=80=9D th= at seem glaringly >> missing from management decisions during those days. It was shocking. Th= ere >> were other more perplexing oddities too in the decision making process. >>=20 >> I have much to say about the topic but this is perhaps not the right >> place. Perhaps it is not my place at all. >>=20 >> The VC years have a cartoonish character to them that seemed to be filled >> with an unlimited supply of =E2=80=9CWait, we=E2=80=99re doing what?=E2= =80=9D moments. Yes I=E2=80=99m >> looking at you boombox. >>=20 >> What I think is relevant here is that even the plan9 engineers on >> different coasts seemed to get divided by details not unlike the recent >> discussions=E2=80=99 beginnings. This didn=E2=80=99t help win arguments = about product >> direction. >>=20 >> Then there was me just always bitching about Fred Brooks, or ways in whi= ch >> the cli was inconsistent, full of =E2=80=9Cwe should=E2=80=9Ds and =E2= =80=9Cwe shouldn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=9Ds and >> noticing when I was right in dissent more than when I was wrong. So ther= e=E2=80=99s >> that. >>=20 >> In some possible universes _that_ Coraid thrived >> but they are not ones where where new voices weren=E2=80=99t heard or ol= d ones >> were ignored. >>=20 >> The flurries of traffic on this list often seem to have a negative tone = to >> me. It means a lot to me when the conversations are supportive. >>=20 >> I hope this recent activity continues on as more collaborative >> conversations. Nobody joins this list who isn=E2=80=99t interested in >> participating somehow. Let=E2=80=99s not shut them down. >>=20 >> Ian >>=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Lucio De Re > 2 Piet Retief St > Kestell (Eastern Free State) > 9860 South Africa >=20 > Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 > Cell: +27 83 251 5824 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M0a07d= 77543a173b935a40f6c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription