From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 04:36:00 -0400 Message-ID: From: s s To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300fb24550eb3e04ac69f376 Subject: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1b871f18-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --20cf300fb24550eb3e04ac69f376 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 With 9p's ability to send and receive arbitrary information as file i/o, does http remain "necessary"? Is there any reason that 9p cannot do this ... ''HTTP functions as a request-responseprotocol in the client-server computing model. In HTTP, a web browser , for example, acts as a *client*, while an application running on a computer hosting a web sitefunctions as a *server*. The client submits an HTTP *request* message to the server. The server, which stores content, or provides *resources*, such as HTMLfiles, or performs other functions on behalf of the client, returns a response message to the client. A response contains completion status information about the request and may contain any content requested by the client in its message body.'' -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Http#Technical_overview - Leonard --20cf300fb24550eb3e04ac69f376 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With 9p's ability to send and receive arbitrary information as file i/o= , does http remain "necessary"?

Is there any reason that 9= p cannot do this ...

''HTTP functions as a request= -response protocol in the client-server c= omputing model. In HTTP, a web browser, for example, acts as a clien= t, while an application running on a computer hosting a <= a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_site" title=3D"Web site" class= =3D"mw-redirect">web site functions as a server. The client subm= its an HTTP request message to the server. The server, which stores = content, or provides resources, such as HTML files, or performs other functions on behalf of the client, returns a=20 response message to the client. A response contains completion status=20 information about the request and may contain any content requested by=20 the client in its message body.''
=A0 -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Http= #Technical_overview

=A0- Leonard


--20cf300fb24550eb3e04ac69f376-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 10:51:09 +0200 Message-ID: From: hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1b8cab5e-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTTP is not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency links 9p is much slower for getting files. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: dexen deVries To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 11:09:41 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/3.1.0-rc5-l38+; KDE/4.5.5; x86_64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <201109081109.42824.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1b953026-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thursday 08 of September 2011 10:36:00 s s wrote: > With 9p's ability to send and receive arbitrary information as file i/o, > does http remain "necessary"? >=20 > Is there any reason that 9p cannot do this ... http works around high latency by packing as much information as sensible i= n=20 one request, one response. http does not perform step-by-step hierarchy=20 traversal, instead specifies whole pathname at once. http takes just one=20 request/response to list whole directory (or similar). you need TCP (or=20 similar) setup -- say, three packets, then one packet request (+ACK), one o= r=20 few packets response (+ACK) and connection teardown. 9p seems to assume the latency is low enough to perform all both pathname a= nd=20 file operations separately. you could create a 9p->http->9p bridge to work around high-latency links; i= t=20 would gather a bunch of 9p operations: pathname traversal, file open, file = read=20 (sending locally fake `T' 9p responses to indicate success in spite of not= =20 doing any real work). it would then push them on-the-wire with just one htt= p=20 request. on the other end, the other process would issue locally several 9p= =20 requests to gather necessary data and respond with an usual http response -= =2D=20 which would get translated to Tread by the originating bridge process. could get a bit hairy for writes. =2D-=20 dexen deVries [[[=E2=86=93][=E2=86=92]]] =46or example, if the first thing in the file is: an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional= =20 ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt )) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: From: "Steve Simon" Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 10:17:08 +0100 To: 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: <201109081109.42824.dexen.devries@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1b996632-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > you could create a 9p->http->9p bridge to work around high-latency links my understanding is, this is pretty much what octopus does for comms, see http://lsub.org/ls/octopus.html, though it keeps within the 9p protocol, but it adds some extra RPCs. [Hope I have not muddled my project names here]. -Steve From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: dexen deVries To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 11:22:07 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/3.1.0-rc5-l38+; KDE/4.5.5; x86_64; ; ) References: <201109081109.42824.dexen.devries@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <201109081109.42824.dexen.devries@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <201109081122.07497.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1ba407fe-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thursday 08 of September 2011 11:09:41 dexen wrote: > you could create a 9p->http->9p bridge to work around high-latency links; > it would gather a bunch of 9p operations (...) the idea is NOT to serialize and send 9p packets themselves, but rather tha= n=20 to translate a bunch of 9p operations into one HTTP request/response. send one HTTP GET with proper pathname, and obtain one HTTP 200 OK with the= =20 right content (possibly using Range header, possibly also requesting more d= ata=20 than strictly necessary and cache it locally to serve subsequent TReads, to= =20 avoid many HTTP requests for small amounts of data). > could get a bit hairy for writes. IIRC there's that `PATCH' HTTP method; not widely supported but could do. TAuth could probably translate to HTTP Auth, at least to some extent. HTTP= =20 itself is stateless, but a pipelined HTTP connection could be equated to on= e=20 authenticated 9p session. =2D-=20 dexen deVries [[[=E2=86=93][=E2=86=92]]] =46or example, if the first thing in the file is: an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional= =20 ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt )) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201109081122.07497.dexen.devries@gmail.com> References: <201109081109.42824.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <201109081122.07497.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:34:03 +0200 Message-ID: From: hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1bb635b4-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 why do you want this?? From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:54:40 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1bcc33d2-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu Sep 8 04:52:08 EDT 2011, 23hiro@googlemail.com wrote: > HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTTP is > not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency links 9p with a single outstanding request > is much slower for getting files. there, fixed that for ya. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: dexen deVries To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 15:04:36 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/3.1.0-rc5-l38+; KDE/4.5.5; x86_64; ; ) References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1bd0df68-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thursday 08 of September 2011 14:54:40 erik quanstrom wrote: > On Thu Sep 8 04:52:08 EDT 2011, 23hiro@googlemail.com wrote: > > HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTTP is > > not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency links 9p >=20 > with a single outstanding request >=20 > > is much slower for getting files. >=20 > there, fixed that for ya. is 9p windowable at all? is that implemented? =2D-=20 dexen deVries [[[=E2=86=93][=E2=86=92]]] =46or example, if the first thing in the file is: an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional= =20 ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt )) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 09:21:50 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Leimbach To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300faf893d625604ac707522 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1bdf7866-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --20cf300faf893d625604ac707522 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 1:51 AM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote: > HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTTP is > not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency links 9p > is much slower for getting files. > > HTTP tries to be stateless as well. Hence REST. 9p is a fairly stateful protocol. ... but then so is NFSv4, and 9p remains simpler. There's also pi-P documented somewhere that takes the ideas of 9p and makes them more applicable to the space where http is interesting, as well as others. Dave --20cf300faf893d625604ac707522 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 1:51 AM, hiro <23hiro@googlema= il.com> wrote:
HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTTP is
not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency links 9p
is much slower for getting files.

HTTP tries to be stateless as well. =A0Hence REST. =A09p= is a fairly stateful protocol.
... but then so is NFSv4, and 9p remain= s simpler.

There's also pi-P documented somewh= ere that takes the ideas of 9p and makes them more applicable to the space = where http is interesting, as well as others.

Dave
--20cf300faf893d625604ac707522-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 09:24:31 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Leimbach To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd5288ce1a7b504ac707e28 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1be56b04-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --000e0cd5288ce1a7b504ac707e28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:04 AM, dexen deVries wrot= e: > On Thursday 08 of September 2011 14:54:40 erik quanstrom wrote: > > On Thu Sep 8 04:52:08 EDT 2011, 23hiro@googlemail.com wrote: > > > HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTTP i= s > > > not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency links 9= p > > > > with a single outstanding request > > > > > is much slower for getting files. > > > > there, fixed that for ya. > > is 9p windowable at all? is that implemented? > > > 9p has tagged requests. The client chooses them, and therefore, for certai= n servers you can overlap requests and get reasonable performance. I've designed very simplistic protocols like this before, and they typically pan out nicely. I had a simple request/response system for issuing commands to a C program that would fetch data of CAN bus connected microcontrollers. It was very nice to work with as you could drive the C program from basically any programming language. I ended up using Erlang. Go wasn't really quite available yet :-). Dave > -- > dexen deVries > > [[[=E2=86=93][=E2=86=92]]] > > For example, if the first thing in the file is: > > an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the tradition= al > ROT13 encoding. > > (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt )) > > --000e0cd5288ce1a7b504ac707e28 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:04 AM, dexen de= Vries <dexe= n.devries@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday 08 of September 2011 14:54:40= erik quanstrom wrote:
> On Thu Sep =C2=A08 04:52:08 EDT 2011, 23hiro@googlemail.com wrote:
> > HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HT= TP is
> > not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency lin= ks 9p
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with a single outstanding request
>
> > is much slower for getting files.
>
> there, fixed that for ya.

is 9p windowable at all? is that implemented?



9p has tagged requests. = =C2=A0The client chooses them, and therefore, for certain servers you can o= verlap requests and get reasonable performance. =C2=A0I've designed ver= y simplistic protocols like this before, and they typically pan out nicely.= =C2=A0I had a simple request/response system for issuing commands to a C p= rogram that would fetch data of CAN bus connected microcontrollers. =C2=A0 = It was very nice to work with as you could drive the C program from basical= ly any programming language. =C2=A0I ended up using Erlang. =C2=A0Go wasn&#= 39;t really quite available yet :-).

Dave
=C2=A0
--
dexen deVries

[[[=E2=86=93][=E2=86=92]]]

For example, if the first thing in the file is:
=C2=A0 <?kzy irefvba=3D"1.0" rapbqvat=3D"ebg13"?>= ;
an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional=
ROT13 encoding.

(( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt ))


--000e0cd5288ce1a7b504ac707e28-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 12:31:05 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1bea4dae-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > > On Thursday 08 of September 2011 14:54:40 erik quanstrom wrote: > > > On Thu Sep 8 04:52:08 EDT 2011, 23hiro@googlemail.com wrote: > > > > HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTTP is > > > > not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency links 9p > > > > > > with a single outstanding request > > > > > > > is much slower for getting files. > > > > > > there, fixed that for ya. > > > > is 9p windowable at all? is that implemented? > > > > > > > 9p has tagged requests. cf. /sys/src/cmd/fcp.c - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 09:56:10 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Floren To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1beeeaf8-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:31 AM, erik quanstrom wrot= e: >> > On Thursday 08 of September 2011 14:54:40 erik quanstrom wrote: >> > > On Thu Sep =A08 04:52:08 EDT 2011, 23hiro@googlemail.com wrote: >> > > > HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTT= P is >> > > > not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency link= s 9p >> > > >> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 with a single outstanding request >> > > >> > > > is much slower for getting files. >> > > >> > > there, fixed that for ya. >> > >> > is 9p windowable at all? is that implemented? >> > >> > >> > >> 9p has tagged requests. > > cf. /sys/src/cmd/fcp.c > > - erik > > I do not think it is acceptable to have to fork repeatedly merely to efficiently read a file. Also, as far as I can tell, exactly one program (fcp) does that. Can a single process have multiple outstanding requests? My investigations indicated not, but then again I may have mis-read things. John From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 09:59:42 -0700 Message-ID: From: ron minnich To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1bf3edaa-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:56 AM, John Floren wrote: > I do not think it is acceptable to have to fork repeatedly merely to > efficiently read a file. Also, as far as I can tell, exactly one > program (fcp) does that. > > Can a single process have multiple outstanding requests? My > investigations indicated not, but then again I may have mis-read > things. So, John, you don't think it's reasonable to rewrite every program a la fcp? How unreasonable of you :-) ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 10:18:16 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Leimbach To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd5685e1d591104ac713f67 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1bfeca04-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --000e0cd5685e1d591104ac713f67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:59 AM, ron minnich wrote: > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:56 AM, John Floren wrote: > > > I do not think it is acceptable to have to fork repeatedly merely to > > efficiently read a file. Also, as far as I can tell, exactly one > > program (fcp) does that. > > > > Can a single process have multiple outstanding requests? My > > investigations indicated not, but then again I may have mis-read > > things. > > So, John, you don't think it's reasonable to rewrite every program a > la fcp? How unreasonable of you :-) > > ron > > "Perhaps if we built a large wooden badger..." --000e0cd5685e1d591104ac713f67 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:59 AM, ron minn= ich <rminnich@gm= ail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:56 AM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:

> I do not think it is acceptable to have to fork repeatedly merely to > efficiently read a file. Also, as far as I can tell, exactly one
> program (fcp) does that.
>
> Can a single process have multiple outstanding requests? My
> investigations indicated not, but then again I may have mis-read
> things.

So, John, you don't think it's reasonable to rewrite every pr= ogram a
la fcp? How unreasonable of you :-)

ron

"Perhaps if we built a large wooden badger..= ." --000e0cd5685e1d591104ac713f67-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 13:20:37 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c054442-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > > Can a single process have multiple outstanding requests? My > > investigations indicated not, but then again I may have mis-read > > things. > > So, John, you don't think it's reasonable to rewrite every program a > la fcp? How unreasonable of you :-) alternatively, the mount driver could be rewritten. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 To: <9fans@9fans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 12:28:58 -0500 From: EBo In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a566d6213ccc61e0b989514563fd8c1@swcp.com> User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.4-trunk Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c13adc0-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 10:18:16 -0700, David Leimbach wrote: > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:59 AM, ron minnich > wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:56 AM, John Floren >> wrote: >> >> > I do not think it is acceptable to have to fork repeatedly merely >> to >> > efficiently read a file. Also, as far as I can tell, exactly one >> > program (fcp) does that. >> > >> > Can a single process have multiple outstanding requests? My >> > investigations indicated not, but then again I may have mis-read >> > things. >> >> So, John, you don't think it's reasonable to rewrite every program a >> la fcp? How unreasonable of you :-) > > "Perhaps if we built a large wooden badger..." On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 13:20:37 -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: > > alternatively, the mount driver could be rewritten. coconuts? EBo -- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Sep 2011 09:56:10 PDT." References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 12:44:09 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Message-Id: <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c182d00-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 09:56:10 PDT John Floren wrote: > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:31 AM, erik quanstrom wrot= > e: > >> > On Thursday 08 of September 2011 14:54:40 erik quanstrom wrote: > >> > > On Thu Sep =A08 04:52:08 EDT 2011, 23hiro@googlemail.com wrote: > >> > > > HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTT= > P is > >> > > > not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency link= > s 9p > >> > > > >> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 with a single outstanding request > >> > > > >> > > > is much slower for getting files. > >> > > > >> > > there, fixed that for ya. > >> > > >> > is 9p windowable at all? is that implemented? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> 9p has tagged requests. > > > > cf. /sys/src/cmd/fcp.c > > > > - erik > > > > > > I do not think it is acceptable to have to fork repeatedly merely to > efficiently read a file. Also, as far as I can tell, exactly one > program (fcp) does that. > > Can a single process have multiple outstanding requests? My > investigations indicated not, but then again I may have mis-read > things. Is there a way to distinguish between files backed by real storage & synthetic files? Seems to me that the server wouldn't know if you pipelined multiple read/write requests on a given connection (in-order delivery). May be the client can do read-ahead of N blocks. But one issue with read-ahead / write-behind is the problem of head of line blocking -- further non-r/w requests queue up behind them. That is why FTP uses a control connection for all the commands & responses but data is delivered on a fresh tcp connection. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 13:14:47 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Floren To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c1c461a-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 09:56:10 PDT John Floren =A0wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:31 AM, erik quanstrom w= rot=3D >> e: >> >> > On Thursday 08 of September 2011 14:54:40 erik quanstrom wrote: >> >> > > On Thu Sep =3DA08 04:52:08 EDT 2011, 23hiro@googlemail.com wrote: >> >> > > > HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. = HTT=3D >> P is >> >> > > > not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency l= ink=3D >> s 9p >> >> > > >> >> > > =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 with a single outstanding request >> >> > > >> >> > > > is much slower for getting files. >> >> > > >> >> > > there, fixed that for ya. >> >> > >> >> > is 9p windowable at all? is that implemented? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 9p has tagged requests. >> > >> > cf. /sys/src/cmd/fcp.c >> > >> > - erik >> > >> > >> >> I do not think it is acceptable to have to fork repeatedly merely to >> efficiently read a file. Also, as far as I can tell, exactly one >> program (fcp) does that. >> >> Can a single process have multiple outstanding requests? My >> investigations indicated not, but then again I may have mis-read >> things. > > Is there a way to distinguish between files backed by real > storage & synthetic files? Seems to me that the server > wouldn't know if you pipelined multiple read/write requests on > a given connection (in-order delivery). May be the client can > do read-ahead of N blocks. But one issue with read-ahead / > write-behind is the problem of head of line blocking -- > further non-r/w requests queue up behind them. That is why FTP > uses a control connection for all the commands & responses but > data is delivered on a fresh tcp connection. > > See my thesis for an FTP-like extension to 9P (https://bitbucket.org/floren/tstream/src/67c7419ad84a/documents/Thesis.pdf= ) in which 9P messages are used to negotiate a separate TCP data stream, avoiding the blocking problem. It achieved transfer performance equivalent to that of HTTP over a high-latency link. Deja vu here--I know we just discussed this about a month ago :) John From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 16:18:43 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c3df2c4-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Is there a way to distinguish between files backed by real > storage & synthetic files? that's the wrong distinction. ramfs is syntetic and so is /dev/sd00/raw. i'm not so sure that you have to make this distinction anyway. it's enough for the the application to request > iounit bytes at a time. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Sep 2011 13:14:47 PDT." References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 13:35:47 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Message-Id: <20110908203547.C1CF1B827@mail.bitblocks.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c3888d4-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 13:14:47 PDT John Floren wrote: > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > > > > Is there a way to distinguish between files backed by real > > storage & synthetic files? Seems to me that the server > > wouldn't know if you pipelined multiple read/write requests on > > a given connection (in-order delivery). May be the client can > > do read-ahead of N blocks. But one issue with read-ahead / > > write-behind is the problem of head of line blocking -- > > further non-r/w requests queue up behind them. That is why FTP > > uses a control connection for all the commands & responses but > > data is delivered on a fresh tcp connection. > > See my thesis for an FTP-like extension to 9P > (https://bitbucket.org/floren/tstream/src/67c7419ad84a/documents/Thesis.pdf) > in which 9P messages are used to negotiate a separate TCP data stream, > avoiding the blocking problem. It achieved transfer performance > equivalent to that of HTTP over a high-latency link. > > Deja vu here--I know we just discussed this about a month ago :) Deja vu all over again. We seem have this discussion every N months. But why do you need to extend the protocol? Just use a new connection for every file from a local proxy or something! I will have to read your thesis. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20110908203547.C1CF1B827@mail.bitblocks.com> References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> <20110908203547.C1CF1B827@mail.bitblocks.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 22:43:53 +0200 Message-ID: From: Francisco J Ballesteros To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c491640-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 And it's likely we'll have it again :) For nix, I've just implemented something called IX, while is mostly multiplexing a single stream to provide concurrent channels and then send modified 9p requests on them, to be able to put/get entire files like op does. The server seems to work, and the protocol, according to early testing, I'm with a caching client doing 9p<>IX, as we speak. >> Deja vu here--I know we just discussed this about a month ago :) > > Deja vu all over again. We seem have this discussion every N months. > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> <20110908203547.C1CF1B827@mail.bitblocks.com> Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 08:49:50 +1000 Message-ID: From: Bruce Ellis To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c4dc47e-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Can I just say this is the first time I've been on television? On 9 September 2011 06:43, Francisco J Ballesteros wrote: > And it's likely we'll have it again :) > > For nix, I've just implemented something called IX, while is mostly > multiplexing a single stream to provide concurrent channels and then send > modified 9p requests on them, to be able to put/get entire files like op does. > The server seems to work, and the protocol, according to early testing, > I'm with a caching client doing 9p<>IX, as we speak. > > >>> Deja vu here--I know we just discussed this about a month ago :) >> >> Deja vu all over again. We seem have this discussion every N months. >> > > -- Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> <20110908203547.C1CF1B827@mail.bitblocks.com> From: Venkatesh Srinivas Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 19:19:31 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c528f36-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Just asynchronous TClunk is enough to improve 9P's performance over high-latency links dramatically. -- vs From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> <20110908203547.C1CF1B827@mail.bitblocks.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 16:29:52 -0700 Message-ID: From: ron minnich To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c5752fa-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Venkatesh Srinivas wrote: > Just asynchronous TClunk is enough to improve 9P's performance over > high-latency links dramatically. not my experience, but I'm willing to be convinced. ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 19:32:50 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: <009d09bf2b5b2c3ccba4007fdd7b516d@ladd.quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> <20110908203547.C1CF1B827@mail.bitblocks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c612474-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu Sep 8 19:31:19 EDT 2011, rminnich@gmail.com wrote: > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Venkatesh Srinivas wrote: > > Just asynchronous TClunk is enough to improve 9P's performance over > > high-latency links dramatically. > > not my experience, but I'm willing to be convinced. iirc, async clunks are dangerous. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> <20110908203547.C1CF1B827@mail.bitblocks.com> From: Venkatesh Srinivas Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 19:48:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c5c88ba-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Using the hacky inferno-npe async clunk implementation, from october 2010; from a Linux server running inferno-npe to a Linux client running inferno-npe; latency ~15ms. Getting the sources of cwfs from the server fell from 5.6 sec to 4.5 sec. For the 9 kernel sources, 51 sec fell to 41 sec. Got better results with sources (40ms away) but don't have the numbers handy. -- vs From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <009d09bf2b5b2c3ccba4007fdd7b516d@ladd.quanstro.net> References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> <20110908203547.C1CF1B827@mail.bitblocks.com> <009d09bf2b5b2c3ccba4007fdd7b516d@ladd.quanstro.net> From: Venkatesh Srinivas Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 19:51:59 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c6719c4-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 7:32 PM, erik quanstrom wrot= e: > On Thu Sep =C2=A08 19:31:19 EDT 2011, rminnich@gmail.com wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Venkatesh Srinivas wrot= e: >> > Just asynchronous TClunk is enough to improve 9P's performance over >> > high-latency links dramatically. >> >> not my experience, but I'm willing to be convinced. > > iirc, async clunks are dangerous. > > -erik I never agreed with that conclusion from the oct 2010 discussion here. -- vs From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9b73a2f7842fdf54ca57423261c7ae78@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201109081504.36357.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110908194409.743FBB827@mail.bitblocks.com> <20110908203547.C1CF1B827@mail.bitblocks.com> From: Eric Van Hensbergen Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 19:18:20 -0500 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c6b9b2a-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Bruce Ellis wrote: > Can I just say this is the first time I've been on television? > sorry, there isn't time, we're just about to get another result... From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <5ff3f11c9fc1e01612f7cf78c36530b0@terzarima.net> From: Charles Forsyth Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 09:13:07 +0100 To: 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c791174-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 >> iirc, async clunks are dangerous. >> >> -erik >I never agreed with that conclusion from the oct 2010 discussion here. `dangerous' is not the right word; they simply confound the use of the protocol From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5ff3f11c9fc1e01612f7cf78c36530b0@terzarima.net> References: <5ff3f11c9fc1e01612f7cf78c36530b0@terzarima.net> Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 19:26:18 +1000 Message-ID: From: Bruce Ellis To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c84602e-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am! On 9 September 2011 18:13, Charles Forsyth wrote: >>> iirc, async clunks are dangerous. >>> >>> -erik > >>I never agreed with that conclusion from the oct 2010 discussion here. > > `dangerous' is not the right word; they simply confound the use of the protocol > > -- Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: dexen deVries To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 11:36:43 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/3.1.0-rc5-l38+; KDE/4.5.5; x86_64; ; ) References: <5ff3f11c9fc1e01612f7cf78c36530b0@terzarima.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201109091136.44757.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c8c467c-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Friday 09 of September 2011 11:26:18 Bruce Ellis wrote: > I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick > and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this > country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking > people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. what was the Plan 9 stack limit again? ;-) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201109091136.44757.dexen.devries@gmail.com> References: <5ff3f11c9fc1e01612f7cf78c36530b0@terzarima.net> <201109091136.44757.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 21:26:35 +1000 Message-ID: From: Bruce Ellis To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ttp Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1c9fa6ea-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 That was a seriously good get. I've heard there is a serious build up of SAT (surface-to-air tapas) deployment in Spain. I will talk about Inferno Multi Processor experience in these matters in a WIP, or a tapas bar. Unfortunately my Spanish tutor was deported for unspecified reasons, and listening to Molotov and watching the SBS Spanish news is not cutting it - unless of course the workshop moves to East LA or I need to talk on the World Economy or Mid East unrest. Might need the Shaney "just hit the n key" post for this thread so it doesn't diverge and end up on slash-dot talking about video card performance. OT I had to fill in a confusing, lengthy, government form yesterday and it asked me to list my aliases. I listed Mark V. Shaney just to take attention off the rest of the form. Well, I listed my US Bounty Hunter License as a qualification. Tclunk, brucee On 9 September 2011 19:36, dexen deVries wrote: > On Friday 09 of September 2011 11:26:18 Bruce Ellis wrote: >> I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick >> and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this >> country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking >> people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. > > what was the Plan 9 stack limit again? ;-) > > > -- Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE)