Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

On Wed Sep 22 10:14:52 JST 2004, Kenji Okamoto wrote:
> > I used to use acme on Inferno when I didn't have a way to input
> > kanji on Plan 9.
> I've never have such a case, what situation?

There has been ktrans always but the program seemed not
good enough for my daily use then.  I eventually made an
skk-like input program myself. But until then, I used inferno acme.


> > Inferno accepts kanji character input from
> > Windows IME 2000.
> Hm, then, that Inferno must be new version.

No, it's not.  It was Inferno 3rd ed. on Windows NT4 and two years ago.


> >  Limbo programming is a great fun too.
> great joy as a minor?

Again, no. :)
Limbo is a good programming language.  Every shortcomings in C
is fixed in Limbo, I think.  Modularity, tuple, array, parallel
programming & communication, etc.  At the same time, Limbo stays
simple and clean compared to other newer languages like c++, java.
Good tools give their user joy on using them.


> In the case of Inferno, I don't feel such a strong policy, and there is 
> little that cannot be done by other than Inferno either.

My understanding is that Inferno is built around the same strong policy
as Plan 9, a file sharing protocol.  But the implementation is different.
It's written in Limbo rather than C.
-- 

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Kenji Okamoto]

>> I've never have such a case, what situation?
> 
> There has been ktrans always but the program seemed not
> good enough for my daily use then. 

I've never experienced this exepting names, and Japanes address which
were intentionally removed from the default dictionary.   This is because
it depends on each person's need.

>> > Inferno accepts kanji character input from
>> > Windows IME 2000.
>> Hm, then, that Inferno must be new version.
> 
> No, it's not.  It was Inferno 3rd ed. on Windows NT4 and two years ago.

Is it.   I seldom use Inferno, so I may ignorant of this, I'll try it at home soon.

>> In the case of Inferno, I don't feel such a strong policy, and there is 
>> little that cannot be done by other than Inferno either.
> 
> My understanding is that Inferno is built around the same strong policy
> as Plan 9, a file sharing protocol.  But the implementation is different.
> It's written in Limbo rather than C.

Many people says so.   Then, why they don't work more actively?

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

On Tue Sep 21 18:36:16 JST 2004, Kenji Okamoto wrote:
> Hm, he is also an Inferno user.   Do you have anything to say
> here, Takeshi?   I don't know him actually...

I used to use acme on Inferno when I didn't have a way to input
kanji on Plan 9.  Inferno accepts kanji character input from
Windows IME 2000.  Limbo programming is a great fun too.
-- 

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Kenji Okamoto]

> I used to use acme on Inferno when I didn't have a way to input
> kanji on Plan 9.

I've never have such a case, what situation? 

> Inferno accepts kanji character input from
> Windows IME 2000.

Hm, then, that Inferno must be new version.   I have no Win environment
here at work though.☺

>  Limbo programming is a great fun too.

great joy as a minor?

According to my understanding, if wrong correct me, Plan 9 has its
strong policy, and which attracts me much.   However, there is little
thing that cannot be done by other than Plan 9.   

In the case of Inferno, I don't feel such a strong policy, and there is 
little that cannot be done by other than Inferno either.   This is the 
reason why I'm engaged in Plan 9, but not in Inferno.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

On Sun Sep 19 21:42:08 JST 2004, Vester Thacker wrote:
> I want to create a Plan 9 demo/exhibit for an Expo and for local
> presentations in Japan.
 :
> I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
> learned from earlier attempts.

Those ideas targeting to programmars were already mentioned in the list.
So I will go another way...  How about creating a simple fossil server
running aquarela and distributing its pre-installed vmware image, so that
they can just copy and start the server in their PCs?

There should be none who doesn't appreciate archival/ephemeral
snapshot feature of fossil.
-- 

[9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Vester Thacker]

Hi Everyone,

I want to create a Plan 9 demo/exhibit for an Expo and for local
presentations in Japan. It is my desire to help Plan 9 become more
widely recognized, understood,
and used.

I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
learned from earlier attempts.  Any help or advice is greatly
appreciated.

--Vester "Vic" Thacker

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Matthias Teege]

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:41:35 +0900, Vester Thacker
<vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
> learned from earlier attempts.  Any help or advice is greatly
> appreciated.

I'm interested to. There is a yearly "hacker congress" in
Berlin/Germany (http://www.ccc.de/congress/2004/) between the years
and I think to go there
with a Plan9 network. Maybe someone else is interested.

Matthias

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Boris Maryshev]

I'll be talking about Plan 9 somewhere in late October to estonian grid 
people (http://grid.eenet.ee/wiki/pmwiki.php/GridiWiki/GriidiSeminar).

One obvious and classic demo would be some parralel graphics rendering on 
Plan 9 machines, more serious ideas anyone?

Boris

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Matthias Teege wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:41:35 +0900, Vester Thacker
> <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
>> learned from earlier attempts.  Any help or advice is greatly
>> appreciated.
>
> I'm interested to. There is a yearly "hacker congress" in
> Berlin/Germany (http://www.ccc.de/congress/2004/) between the years
> and I think to go there
> with a Plan9 network. Maybe someone else is interested.
>
> Matthias

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[andrey mirtchovski]

> One obvious and classic demo would be some parralel graphics rendering on 
> Plan 9 machines, more serious ideas anyone?
> 
> Boris
> 

i'd say rendering graphics on separate machines is more of an example
of cluster computing than grid computing.

what Plan 9 has and other systems lack (exclusing inferno), is an easy way to share
resources between computers.  examples of that could be as simple as
mounting the two ends of a pipe, #|, on two different systems and
having programs talk to each other through them.  importing network
stacks or sources.cs are other good examples -- run 'history' on
sources.cs and you have a rough equivalent of cvs.

furthermore, you're not limited in what you can share with plan 9.
have a supported hardware device (canonical example is an audio
player)?  well, you could share it everywhere -- just import its
driver interface.

so i have a tv tuner card at home with the cable plugged in -- i can
import it from university and watch tv!  (well, my network isn't fast
enough for that, but grids have never been about speed :) or look at
nemo's work using redirfs and x10 -- the music follows you when you
move around the rooms in a building.  all you need is to remount the
right /dev/audio under your music player's stream.

none of this requires any special clients -- it's all 'ls', 'cat',
'grep' and 'sed', mount and exportfs.

perhaps a good example you could use is to import /dev/draw from
several plan 9 computers and have them render a static image:

	http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/lanlp9/newnetwork/pw.html

andrey

ps: the definition of grid computing i use, 'sharing resources across
administrative domains', may not be universally adopted.

pps: can redirfs be used for channel bonding, i wonder?

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

> pps: can redirfs be used for channel bonding, i wonder?

Excuse my ignorance, what're you thinking about?

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[andrey mirtchovski]

>> pps: can redirfs be used for channel bonding, i wonder?
> 
> Excuse my ignorance, what're you thinking about?

i didn't know what it is until recently either.  on many of today's
servers (pretty much all AMD64 boxes I've seen) you get not one but
two network interfaces.  channel bonding allows you to use both of
them for sending data as if they are one.  some people report almost
double the bandwidth, but i've only seen 1.2Gbps with netpipe on
untuned broadcom GigEs.

for channel bonding you need either all machines on the subnet to be
talking it, or the router's support.  the linux module is called
'bonding', there's a reasonable explanation in the kernel source
tree's Documentation/.

i was thinking that redirfs could be used to send packets over two
alternating /net interfaces.  a level of indirection above /net may be
naïve and slow, but it don't seem all that hard to implement, maybe.

andrey

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Nigel Roles]

andrey mirtchovski wrote:

>>>pps: can redirfs be used for channel bonding, i wonder?
>>>      
>>>
>>Excuse my ignorance, what're you thinking about?
>>    
>>
>
>i didn't know what it is until recently either.  on many of today's
>servers (pretty much all AMD64 boxes I've seen) you get not one but
>two network interfaces.  channel bonding allows you to use both of
>them for sending data as if they are one.  some people report almost
>double the bandwidth, but i've only seen 1.2Gbps with netpipe on
>untuned broadcom GigEs.
>
>  
>
How were they connected to the CPU? If they are on a PCI (not X)
bus then it's not surprising they are limited to 1.2Gbps. Also, the
broadcom linux drivers seem to use twice as much CPU as the
equivalent Intel chips.

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[andrey mirtchovski]

> How were they connected to the CPU? If they are on a PCI (not X)
> bus then it's not surprising they are limited to 1.2Gbps. Also, the
> broadcom linux drivers seem to use twice as much CPU as the
> equivalent Intel chips.

they were on-board broadcoms.  the machines are amd64, so i don't
expect them to be optimized.

people have had better performance with 32-bit boxes but i've never
tried them.

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

> i was thinking that redirfs could be used to send packets over two
> alternating /net interfaces.  a level of indirection above /net may be
> naïve and slow, but it don't seem all that hard to implement, maybe.

Hmm. I think that would be an overkill. Perhaps doing that within the driver
layer could be better.

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Kenji Okamoto]

> so i have a tv tuner card at home with the cable plugged in -- i can
> import it from university and watch tv!  

What is the name of this TV tuner card?
Is the newer such card can be used with?

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[andrey mirtchovski]

>> so i have a tv tuner card at home with the cable plugged in -- i can
>> import it from university and watch tv!  
> 
> What is the name of this TV tuner card?
> Is the newer such card can be used with?
> 
> Kenji

the supported cards are listed at the top of /sys/src/9/pc/devtv.c

we've used a phillips card in the past, can't remember the model number...

andrey

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Kenji Okamoto]

> the supported cards are listed at the top of /sys/src/9/pc/devtv.c

I know, however, it doesn't make sense to me what is the real product name
but not chip name.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[andrey mirtchovski]

>> the supported cards are listed at the top of /sys/src/9/pc/devtv.c
> 
> I know, however, it doesn't make sense to me what is the real product name
> but not chip name.
> 
> Kenji


pcidatabase.com lists the following names corresponding to the first
DID/VID pairs:

Brooktree Corporation
ISAIAS NUNES
BRASIL
800-2-BT-APPS

Vendor Id: 0x109E
Short Name: Brooktree
Contact:
Web Site: http://www.brooktree.com

Device ID: 0x0350
Chip Number:    BT878
Chip Description:       TV/PCI with DMA Push


Device ID: 0x036E
Chip Number:    Bt878
Chip Description:       MediaStream Controller
Notes: 

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Kenji Okamoto]

Thank you very much, Andrey.

I'll try it soon for my home Plan 9 system.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

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I've found that `simple things' (Well, for those using plan 9)
are impressive for others. For example, importing the audio
device across machines, importing a remote disk and setting
up a mirror, etc.

Also, if it's a demo for programmers, comparing the source code
of simple programs from /sys/src/cmd (lc -s might be enough)
catches people attention.

hth

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From: Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:41:35 +0900
Message-ID: <32a656c2040919054112c73464@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Everyone,

I want to create a Plan 9 demo/exhibit for an Expo and for local
presentations in Japan. It is my desire to help Plan 9 become more
widely recognized, understood,
and used.

I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
learned from earlier attempts.  Any help or advice is greatly
appreciated.

--Vester "Vic" Thacker

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Kenji Okamoto]

> I want to create a Plan 9 demo/exhibit for an Expo and for local
> presentations in Japan. It is my desire to help Plan 9 become more
> widely recognized, understood,
> and used.

You mean Expo in Japan?  If so which Expo? When?
In a general sense, I think it's nice to us, Plan 9 users.

> I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
> learned from earlier attempts.  Any help or advice is greatly
> appreciated.

If you need some help on Japanese input etc, I can help you.

I had a negative experience of such kind at Vita's lecture series at
Tokyo.   Very few people attended, probably because of very highly
expensive fee, and it was undertaken in English in Japan.  Another
negative factor at that time was a problem of Japanese counterpart
of Vita.   They had no will to make it success, never advertized etc.

If you are planning it seriously, you should know most of Japanese
programmers cannot hear/speak English.   They are not so educated
at the Univ. etc.   Here, I don't mean that those programmers are
lesser quality, rather opposite sense.   The programmer who hear/speaks
English may be educated outside, which means thay may have miss
understanding of Japanese's needs for those problems.   Great 
programmers I know in Japan cannot ususally speak/hear English.

Most of so-called Japanese establishments in IT industry are those 
who knows little about technology, rather they are just working in
economics or politics☺ area.   They are just copying the new inventions
at US, sigh...

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Vester Thacker]

On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 10:47:16AM +0900, Kenji Okamoto wrote:
>
> You mean Expo in Japan?  If so which Expo? When?
> In a general sense, I think it's nice to us, Plan 9 users.

Yes. I was considering opening a booth at Open Source World 2005. I'm
still working on a plan. I'll have another TIP9UG meeting next month
and shall solicite for ideas and voluteers. Anyone interested is more
than welcome to help.

> If you need some help on Japanese input etc, I can help you.

Thank you. I'm sure that I'll need help. :-)

--Vester "Vic" Thacker

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Yes. I was considering opening a booth at Open Source World 2005. 

Then, we have some time to discuss on it.
Can someone send his request to some Japanese mailing-list or something?
I don't subscribe none of those.☺

>I'm
> still working on a plan. I'll have another TIP9UG meeting 

Sorry, I'm not a person of IT world, what does this mean TIP9UG...
I guess 9UG may be 9 users group...

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[vthacker]

On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 05:57:12PM +0900, Kenji Okamoto wrote:
> 
> Sorry, I'm not a person of IT world, what does this mean TIP9UG...
> I guess 9UG may be 9 users group...

Sorry. TIP9UG == Tokyo Inferno/Plan 9 Users Group (www.tip9ug.jp).

Previously it was the Tokyo Plan 9 Users Group. Since our last meeting
had numerous Inferno discussions, I added Inferno to the name. 
Takeshi Yamanashi had much to do with it. :-)

--Vester

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Kenji Okamoto]

> had numerous Inferno discussions, I added Inferno to the name. 

I'm a Inferno end member, seldom use it except only for tetris.

> Takeshi Yamanashi had much to do with it. :-)

Hm, he is also an Inferno user.   Do you have anything to say
here, Takeshi?   I don't know him actually...

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Sorry. TIP9UG == Tokyo Inferno/Plan 9 Users Group (www.tip9ug.jp).

Now, I remind that it was this March when I was in US, and couldn't
attend...

Kenji