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Sun, 12 May 2024 12:57:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-443-g0dc955c2a-fm-20240507.001-g0dc955c2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <58674D695EE677627D0DC805814BABE7@migadu.com> Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 01:56:46 +0900 From: vester.thacker@fastmail.fm To: "leimy2k via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: af7a255c-1080-11ef-94e7-a01d098c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NMjhkMTllMTA1NDI5Y2VjNjg1NjA1?= =?UTF-8?B?NmEwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M28d19e105429cec6856056a0:1:eY0a4q9W2TaTaw_FjMuflAVolG0GkNWiL_jsMM3P9N4 Thank you, Hiro, for your insights. I apologize to everyone for my intense and fervent approach; I acknowledge = that I often overlook subtleties. To add a bit of humor, even my son has sa= ved my contact as "Rambo" in his mobile phone. :-) Vic On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 00:55, hiro wrote: > this is mostly wild speculation. further, the numbers are not > representative at all. > since the import of the (possibly redundent) 9k amd64 work from "labs" > (which in this case might mean geoff+charles?) 2 years ago there were > zero active developers contributing to 9legacy. > > please note, that stuff has been developed in the dark and without any > kind of open community process, also not in 9legacy but in some other > fork (that is unknown to me). it was pulled in by 9legacy but i have > no clue from where and why. > there was near zero communication about that other fork, and what it's > plan was, or who might want to use 9k nowadays, and for what purposes. > since this was not developed in the open and not discussed with 9front > people we are at this point largely ignorant of what 9k can do. i > would appreciate a more in-depth comparison if possible, though i fear > 9k is about as dead as plan9 4th edition (and 9legacy for that matter) > at this point. sorry for my doubts. > > On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 5:13=E2=80=AFPM wrote: >> >> My understanding is that the initial request came from a 9legacy member = to the 9front community, and the responses were quite intriguing. It has le= d me to ponder how we might bridge the gap between these communities. There= seems to be conflict on both sides, and for some reason, I hold 9front to = higher standards=E2=80=94perhaps because of our more idealistic roots. The = core mission of 9front was always to advance the Plan 9 tradition, but not = at the cost of alienating others. >> >> From what I observe, there seem to be only a handful of active developer= s remaining in each group. Initially, I believed we had around 30 active de= velopers in 9front and about 7 in 9legacy, but I now think I may have overe= stimated these numbers. It appears that many are staying on the sidelines, = possibly due to past grievances, which could explain the responses I've see= n. The developers who are active might be overextended, while those who are= less active might feel marginalized. >> >> Vic >> >> >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 22:23, qwx@nopenopenope.net wrote: >> > On Sun May 12 14:43:17 +0200 2024, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote: >> >> I don't mind the ad hominem attacks. I just hope things improve. I d= o find it ironic that I'm addressing the 9front community about collaborati= on and inclusiveness when I recall those as being two reasons for the incep= tion of 9front. >> >> >> >> Vic >> > >> > You hit the nail on the head there. Why *are* you addressing just the >> > 9front community or assuming there is no willingness to collaborate on >> > its part? 9legacy users so far have expressed interest in someone >> > else porting dp9ik (David for instance) or demanded explanations about >> > DES cracking (Richard) or asked for others to port or fix fossil on >> > 9front (Lucio), but who explicitely said that they would like to put >> > in some work themselves and collaborate with 9front people? Maybe I'm >> > beginning to misremember the rest of the thread, am I missing >> > anything? Could you point to *specific examples*? >> > >> > 9front users demand code because they've already put in a lot of work >> > and it has been often ignored or dismissed, and because it would be up >> > to them to backport it to 9legacy -- why would they do double duty for >> > a system they don't use and a community which is generally not >> > receptive to their work? Also, do you realize that 9front right now >> > has upwards of 10500 changes in the repository, after 13 years? >> > Bringing 9legacy up to date as you've proposed would require a >> > colossal amount of work, all just to obtain... 9front. Do you >> > believe it has diverged to the point where backporting hardware >> > support, fixing bugs and broken or incomplete implementations and so >> > on will result in anything other than what 9front already is? >> > >> > You yourself demand everyone, especially the 9front community, to make >> > suggestions, start projects, etc. What about you? What do you >> > suggest to do and which projects would you take part in? That's what >> > "just send the code" implies. Promises don't fix bugs or help >> > implement programs, nor help fix this one-sided conversation. >> > >> > I'm asking these questions yet I fear that they will meet radio >> > silence or more empty walls of text, as it happens too often here >> > when asking "why" or how it came to this. I hope I'm wrong. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > qwx >> > >> > PS: I was about to hit send when I received Richard's mail. >> > Richard, thank you for the constructive and detailed response. >> > I hope this marks a turn of the tide. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M28d19= e105429cec6856056a0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription