* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-07 2:58 ` Russ Cox
@ 2005-03-07 10:10 ` Gorka Guardiola
2005-03-07 15:40 ` Brantley Coile
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Gorka Guardiola @ 2005-03-07 10:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: russcox, 9fans
>> then, it's handy. You can do a p9 network, you can run linux with BSD and
>> Plan 9 guests, and so on. Reduce linux to playing the role of device
>> driver layer.
>
> for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast.
> a simulation of three computers running three
> different operating systems is no easier to
> use than three actual computers running three
> different operating systems (though it is admittedly
> easier to carry around). i found that the os-os
> boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping
> across, with distinct file systems, desktops, snarf
> buffers, etc. attached to each one instead of a
> unified whole.
Well for debugging kernels it is really good...
G.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-07 2:58 ` Russ Cox
2005-03-07 10:10 ` Gorka Guardiola
@ 2005-03-07 15:40 ` Brantley Coile
2005-03-07 15:59 ` Ronald G. Minnich
2005-03-08 4:20 ` Martin C.Atkins
3 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Brantley Coile @ 2005-03-07 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: russcox, 9fans
> for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast.
> a simulation of three computers running three
> different operating systems is no easier to
> use than three actual computers running three
> different operating systems (though it is admittedly
> easier to carry around). i found that the os-os
> boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping
> across, with distinct file systems, desktops, snarf
> buffers, etc. attached to each one instead of a
> unified whole.
>
> russ
This was my experience as well. I decided that multiple machines
glued together with Plan 9 was the easiest for me to deal with.
Multiple machines also removes the requirement for any one to do
everything.
Brantley
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-07 2:58 ` Russ Cox
2005-03-07 10:10 ` Gorka Guardiola
2005-03-07 15:40 ` Brantley Coile
@ 2005-03-07 15:59 ` Ronald G. Minnich
2005-03-07 17:10 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros
2005-03-08 4:20 ` Martin C.Atkins
3 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Ronald G. Minnich @ 2005-03-07 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Russ Cox, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Russ Cox wrote:
> for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast. a simulation of three
> computers running three different operating systems is no easier to use
> than three actual computers running three different operating systems
> (though it is admittedly easier to carry around). i found that the
> os-os boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping across, with
> distinct file systems, desktops, snarf buffers, etc. attached to each
> one instead of a unified whole.
it has not proven to be a burden for me. I guess it just depends on what
you're trying to do.
ron
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-07 15:59 ` Ronald G. Minnich
@ 2005-03-07 17:10 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros
0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Fco. J. Ballesteros @ 2005-03-07 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 278 bytes --]
Being able to plumb to other hosts, while redirecting
mouse/keyboard helps a lot. Using a shared snarf, as
we do, helps even more.
We're not happy yet with
the way we're doing the net-plumb, but it's one of those things you
don't want to live without once you tried it.
[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3412 bytes --]
From: "Ronald G. Minnich" <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Cc:
Subject: Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:59:04 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0503070858480.3728@enigma.lanl.gov>
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Russ Cox wrote:
> for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast. a simulation of three
> computers running three different operating systems is no easier to use
> than three actual computers running three different operating systems
> (though it is admittedly easier to carry around). i found that the
> os-os boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping across, with
> distinct file systems, desktops, snarf buffers, etc. attached to each
> one instead of a unified whole.
it has not proven to be a burden for me. I guess it just depends on what
you're trying to do.
ron
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-07 2:58 ` Russ Cox
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2005-03-07 15:59 ` Ronald G. Minnich
@ 2005-03-08 4:20 ` Martin C.Atkins
2005-03-08 14:18 ` Ronald G. Minnich
3 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Martin C.Atkins @ 2005-03-08 4:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Russ Cox, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:58:48 -0500 Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote:
> for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast.
> a simulation of three computers running three
> different operating systems is no easier to
> use than three actual computers running three
> different operating systems (though it is admittedly
> easier to carry around). i found that the os-os
> boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping
> across, with distinct file systems, desktops, snarf
> buffers, etc. attached to each one instead of a
> unified whole.
I'm a long-time user of vmware, and I'd agree with a lot of this.
Especially the comments about the inconveniences of os-os boundaries,
and "os-hopping".
On the other hand, I think this underestimates the advantages of
never having to partition a disk again, getting access to other
systems without having to dedicate a physical machine to them, and
being able to minimise the hardware that one has to administer (not
to mention, buy!).
Like all things, there are advantages and disadvantages, and it
depends on what you're doing, but virtual machines (almost?) always
seem to win over multi-booting - where the os-os boundaries are
much harder to overcome.
Martin
--
Martin C. Atkins martin_ml@parvat.com
Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin}
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-08 4:20 ` Martin C.Atkins
@ 2005-03-08 14:18 ` Ronald G. Minnich
2005-03-08 23:13 ` Charles Forsyth
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Ronald G. Minnich @ 2005-03-08 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs; +Cc: Russ Cox
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Martin C.Atkins wrote:
> On the other hand, I think this underestimates the advantages of never
> having to partition a disk again, getting access to other systems
> without having to dedicate a physical machine to them, and being able to
> minimise the hardware that one has to administer (not to mention, buy!).
And, there is the little matter of, e.g., running on a T41 with the
Atheros chipset, which only ships with binary drivers.
ron
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-08 14:18 ` Ronald G. Minnich
@ 2005-03-08 23:13 ` Charles Forsyth
2005-03-08 23:16 ` Ronald G. Minnich
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Charles Forsyth @ 2005-03-08 23:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>And, there is the little matter of, e.g., running on a T41 with the
>>Atheros chipset, which only ships with binary drivers.
not only, but also (although i don't know whether what i see
will work on T41, not having one to test)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-08 23:13 ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2005-03-08 23:16 ` Ronald G. Minnich
2005-03-08 23:19 ` Charles Forsyth
2005-03-08 23:19 ` George Michaelson
0 siblings, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Ronald G. Minnich @ 2005-03-08 23:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> not only, but also (although i don't know whether what i see
> will work on T41, not having one to test)
I couldn't parse this :-)
ron
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-08 23:16 ` Ronald G. Minnich
@ 2005-03-08 23:19 ` Charles Forsyth
2005-03-08 23:37 ` George Michaelson
2005-03-08 23:19 ` George Michaelson
1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Charles Forsyth @ 2005-03-08 23:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
there is code in recompilable form that purports to drive the
Atheros chipset, though whether it works on T41 is unclear.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-08 23:19 ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2005-03-08 23:37 ` George Michaelson
0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: George Michaelson @ 2005-03-08 23:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs; +Cc: forsyth
the X31 I am on in NetBSD has atheros drivers, which I think may be sam
leffler's work in both Free and NetBSD. It uses the binary only HAL code.
is there some codebase outside of the HAL stuff?
-G
---
$NetBSD$
$Id: README,v 1.2 2004/05/15 22:26:25 samleffler Exp $
WARNING: THIS IS A BETA DISTRIBUTION. THIS SOFTWARE HAS KNOWN PROBLEMS AND
WARNING: LIMITATIONS THAT WILL BE CORRECTED BEFORE A PRODUCTION RELEASE.
WARNING: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!
Atheros Hardware Access Layer (HAL)
===================================
* Copyright (c) 2002-2004 Sam Leffler.
* Copyright (c) 2002-2004 Atheros Communications, Inc.
* All rights reserved.
Read the file COPYRIGHT for the complete copyright.
This code manages much of the chip-specific operation of the Atheros
driver. The HAL is provided in a binary-only form in order to comply with
FCC regulations. In particular, a radio transmitter can only be operated
at power levels and on frequency channels for which it is approved. The
FCC requires that a software-defined radio cannot be configured by a user
to operate outside the approved power levels and frequency channels.
This makes it difficult to open-source code that enforces limits on
the power levels, frequency channels and other parameters of the radio
transmitter. See
http://ftp.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Orders/2001/fcc01264.pdf
for the specific FCC regulation. Because the module is provided in a
binary-only form it is marked "Proprietary"; this means when you load
it you will see messages that your system is now "tainted".
If you wish to use this driver on a platform for which an ath_hal
module is not already provided please contact the author. Note that
this is only necessary for new _architectures_; the HAL is not tied to
any specific version of your operating system.
:
:
:
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-08 23:16 ` Ronald G. Minnich
2005-03-08 23:19 ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2005-03-08 23:19 ` George Michaelson
2005-03-08 23:27 ` Ronald G. Minnich
2005-03-08 23:29 ` Charles Forsyth
1 sibling, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: George Michaelson @ 2005-03-08 23:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs; +Cc: rminnich
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:16:02 -0700 (MST) "Ronald G. Minnich"
<rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Charles Forsyth wrote:
>
>> not only, but also (although i don't know whether what i see
>> will work on T41, not having one to test)
>
>I couldn't parse this :-)
>
>ron
Not only, but also is a BBC comedy series of old with peter cook and dudley
moore.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/n/notonlybutalso_7774870.shtml
-George
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-08 23:19 ` George Michaelson
@ 2005-03-08 23:27 ` Ronald G. Minnich
2005-03-08 23:29 ` Charles Forsyth
1 sibling, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Ronald G. Minnich @ 2005-03-08 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: George Michaelson; +Cc: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, George Michaelson wrote:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/n/notonlybutalso_7774870.shtml
>
ah, now we have Charles in the dock for violating the EU's new Cultural
Neutrality in Humor Regulations. Charles, what can you say in your
defense? :-)
ron
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-08 23:19 ` George Michaelson
2005-03-08 23:27 ` Ronald G. Minnich
@ 2005-03-08 23:29 ` Charles Forsyth
2005-03-09 0:06 ` Andrew Simmons
1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Charles Forsyth @ 2005-03-08 23:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>Not only, but also [was] a BBC comedy series ...
yes, that was the reference.
an episode is probably somewhere in p2p land.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-08 23:29 ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2005-03-09 0:06 ` Andrew Simmons
2005-03-09 5:33 ` Martin C.Atkins
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Simmons @ 2005-03-09 0:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
>an episode is probably somewhere in p2p land.
Sadly, the BBC wiped many of the tapes, but "The Best of What's Left of Not
Only But Also" is readily available on DVD, at least in NZ & presumably the
UK. For those old enough to remember, it includes the art gallery sketch
and the Thunderbirds spoof "SuperThunderStingCar" amongst others.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-09 0:06 ` Andrew Simmons
@ 2005-03-09 5:33 ` Martin C.Atkins
2005-03-09 12:07 ` Gorka Guardiola
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Martin C.Atkins @ 2005-03-09 5:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:06:36 +1300 Andrew Simmons <andrew.simmons@monitorbm.co.nz> wrote:
>..
> Sadly, the BBC wiped many of the tapes,
>..
Not quite on par with the destruction of the library at Alexandria (circa 1 AD - there
seems to be some considerable dispute on the date), but this is getting close!
Martin
--
Martin C. Atkins martin_ml@parvat.com
Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin}
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-09 5:33 ` Martin C.Atkins
@ 2005-03-09 12:07 ` Gorka Guardiola
2005-03-09 15:43 ` Martin C.Atkins
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Gorka Guardiola @ 2005-03-09 12:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:06:36 +1300 Andrew Simmons <andrew.simmons@monitorbm.co.nz> wrote:
>>..
>> Sadly, the BBC wiped many of the tapes,
>>..
>
> Not quite on par with the destruction of the library at Alexandria (circa 1 AD - there
> seems to be some considerable dispute on the date), but this is getting close!
>
Hmm. Comparing a tv series with burning for example
Euclides works... this is too much for me.
A good account on the (known) history of the library is in:
http://www.bede.org.uk/Library2.htm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-09 12:07 ` Gorka Guardiola
@ 2005-03-09 15:43 ` Martin C.Atkins
2005-03-09 16:20 ` George Michaelson
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Martin C.Atkins @ 2005-03-09 15:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:07:22 +0100 Gorka Guardiola <paurea@lsub.org> wrote:
>..
> Hmm. Comparing a tv series with burning for example
> Euclides works... this is too much for me.
I was comparing, if anything, the whole BBC archive cleanout, not
just one series. However, I should have put a smiley or two, or
three, and I totally agree on the different order of magnitude.
> A good account on the (known) history of the library is in:
> http://www.bede.org.uk/Library2.htm
Thanks for the great website! The Wikipaedia entry is also
interesting - there appears to be quite a lot of debate about many of
the details, which I guess is not so surprising. In fact, it often
surprises me how little debate there is about many historical
'facts'.
Martin
--
Martin C. Atkins martin_ml@parvat.com
Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin}
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-09 15:43 ` Martin C.Atkins
@ 2005-03-09 16:20 ` George Michaelson
2005-03-09 17:00 ` Steve Simon
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: George Michaelson @ 2005-03-09 16:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
I used to be a film fanatic. In York, I screened 'That was the week that
was' from the archive 16mm film the BBC lent out. They only had the reels,
because the legal department were convinced they would be sued and forced
the producers to film the show and hold offline in case they needed to
prove what was said on -air David Frost and Pete/Dud all had 'form' here
from Private Eye, and other stuff. it was made in the days of the profumo
affair still being fresh in the mind, so the threat was quite real.
Wonderful to get to play with the reels. Also (in a computing aware age)
truly scary they were available for loan. It was the 80s, I have no idea if
they still do this.
I suppose the yorkists online here will be able to say if that converted
church theatre arts centre is still open, over by bishopsgate I think.
Can't remember the name.
-George
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-09 16:20 ` George Michaelson
@ 2005-03-09 17:00 ` Steve Simon
2005-03-09 17:01 ` Steve Simon
2005-03-09 17:36 ` [9fans] Native vs Emulated (OT) Leo Caves
2 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Steve Simon @ 2005-03-09 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Contact Steve Roberts at the bbc - you can guess its email address) At the BBC,
he was responsible for the resurection of some "lost" DrWho eipsodes, he might
be interested in this too.
-Steve
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
2005-03-09 16:20 ` George Michaelson
2005-03-09 17:00 ` Steve Simon
@ 2005-03-09 17:01 ` Steve Simon
2005-03-09 17:36 ` [9fans] Native vs Emulated (OT) Leo Caves
2 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Steve Simon @ 2005-03-09 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Hell, sorry, meant to be a private email
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated (OT)
2005-03-09 16:20 ` George Michaelson
2005-03-09 17:00 ` Steve Simon
2005-03-09 17:01 ` Steve Simon
@ 2005-03-09 17:36 ` Leo Caves
2 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Leo Caves @ 2005-03-09 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
George said:
> I suppose the yorkists online here will be able to say if that
> converted
> church theatre arts centre is still open, over by bishopsgate I think.
Church of St John, on Micklegate.
The Arts Centre is now gone.
Last I heard, it was destined to be a restaurant... food for the soul?
Leo
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread