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* [9fans] patches from 9front
@ 2021-02-10  3:27 Eli Cohen
  2021-02-10  3:37 ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-10 13:49 ` Steve Simon
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Eli Cohen @ 2021-02-10  3:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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I noticed the patches from 9front to 9legacy are not well-maintained. I'm trying to figure out if this would be an appreciated exercise from someone (me) who doesn't know all that much and would learn from doing it, and if so, what are priorities for things to port back as patches for 9legacy

thank you for Plan 9!
- Eli
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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10  3:27 [9fans] patches from 9front Eli Cohen
@ 2021-02-10  3:37 ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-10  3:47   ` Eli Cohen
  2021-02-10 13:49 ` Steve Simon
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-10  3:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 2/10/21, Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote:
> I noticed the patches from 9front to 9legacy are not well-maintained. I'm
> trying to figure out if this would be an appreciated exercise from someone
> (me) who doesn't know all that much and would learn from doing it, and if
> so, what are priorities for things to port back as patches for 9legacy
>
In short: it's a bitch!

I'm sure David will appreciate all the help he can get, but the code
divergences will not be easy to tame.

I don't like Git, but I also don't think the Plan 9 "dump" is adequate
to the task of tracking "branches" as would apply in this complex
case.

Perhaps I can recommend isolating bug fixes as distinct from adding
features, but where does one draw the line?

Best of luck, if you intend to proceed.

Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10  3:37 ` Lucio De Re
@ 2021-02-10  3:47   ` Eli Cohen
  2021-02-10  4:14     ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-10  7:24     ` Skip Tavakkolian
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Eli Cohen @ 2021-02-10  3:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:39 PM Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/10/21, Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I noticed the patches from 9front to 9legacy are not well-maintained. I'm
> > trying to figure out if this would be an appreciated exercise from someone
> > (me) who doesn't know all that much and would learn from doing it, and if
> > so, what are priorities for things to port back as patches for 9legacy
> >
> In short: it's a bitch!
>
> I'm sure David will appreciate all the help he can get, but the code
> divergences will not be easy to tame.
>
> I don't like Git, but I also don't think the Plan 9 "dump" is adequate
> to the task of tracking "branches" as would apply in this complex
> case.
>
> Perhaps I can recommend isolating bug fixes as distinct from adding
> features, but where does one draw the line?

I'm not even sure where or how to start. dp9ik seems important if
9legacy doesn't already have something similar. that's probably both a
bug fix and feature... and quite a task! but I would be interested in
porting patches back to learn more

> 
> Best of luck, if you intend to proceed.
> 
> Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10  3:47   ` Eli Cohen
@ 2021-02-10  4:14     ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-10  7:24     ` Skip Tavakkolian
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-10  4:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 2/10/21, Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not even sure where or how to start. dp9ik seems important if
> 9legacy doesn't already have something similar. that's probably both a
> bug fix and feature... and quite a task! but I would be interested in
> porting patches back to learn more
>
I guess you picked a good one (I looked into that particular security
aspect myself, not entirely surprisingly) for a practice run. It's
perhaps not the toughest choice, but it's not easy. It does seem to be
fairly contained, so you may get away with ring-fencing the changes
and actually getting the outcome approved.

I would aim at a well documented plan of attack, maybe the community
(this community) would be willing, certainly able, to help.

Github, perhaps?

Lucio.

PS: You don't have to succeed immediately, real progress moves slowly
and in unpredictable ways.

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10  3:47   ` Eli Cohen
  2021-02-10  4:14     ` Lucio De Re
@ 2021-02-10  7:24     ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2021-02-10 16:15       ` ori
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2021-02-10  7:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1609 bytes --]

no slight to the inventor of dp9ik, but has it been verified?


On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:48 PM Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:39 PM Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 2/10/21, Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I noticed the patches from 9front to 9legacy are not well-maintained.
> I'm
> > > trying to figure out if this would be an appreciated exercise from
> someone
> > > (me) who doesn't know all that much and would learn from doing it, and
> if
> > > so, what are priorities for things to port back as patches for 9legacy
> > >
> > In short: it's a bitch!
> >
> > I'm sure David will appreciate all the help he can get, but the code
> > divergences will not be easy to tame.
> >
> > I don't like Git, but I also don't think the Plan 9 "dump" is adequate
> > to the task of tracking "branches" as would apply in this complex
> > case.
> >
> > Perhaps I can recommend isolating bug fixes as distinct from adding
> > features, but where does one draw the line?
>
> I'm not even sure where or how to start. dp9ik seems important if
> 9legacy doesn't already have something similar. that's probably both a
> bug fix and feature... and quite a task! but I would be interested in
> porting patches back to learn more
>
> >
> > Best of luck, if you intend to proceed.
> >
> > Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10  3:27 [9fans] patches from 9front Eli Cohen
  2021-02-10  3:37 ` Lucio De Re
@ 2021-02-10 13:49 ` Steve Simon
  2021-02-12 11:09   ` [9fans] 9pi provenance Richard Miller
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Steve Simon @ 2021-02-10 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

FWIW I recently extracted ssh/sshfs/libsec from 9front and applied them to
richard miller's raspberry pi image.

This was not too hard but the changes did extend further than I first expected.
I could braindump what I did and it would form (I think) a very useful diff.

Richard millers image is not the same as 9legacy but it is probably very close.

-Steve

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10  7:24     ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2021-02-10 16:15       ` ori
  2021-02-10 21:50         ` Eli Cohen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2021-02-10 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com>:
> no slight to the inventor of dp9ik, but has it been verified?

It's using the SPAKE2 algorithm, which is fairly well analyzed.

Here are a few starting points to read about it:

https://www.lothar.com/blog/54-spake2-random-elements/
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-cfrg-spake2-12
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/104/slides/slides-104-cfrg-pake-selection-01.pdf
https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/curves/2015/000424.html

While code reviews and audits are definitely welcome,
it's a significant step forward over current p9sk1
DES keys that can be brute forced in less than a day.


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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10 16:15       ` ori
@ 2021-02-10 21:50         ` Eli Cohen
  2021-02-10 22:00           ` ori
  2021-02-12 16:39           ` ori
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Eli Cohen @ 2021-02-10 21:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

well... I have a few questions already. I have heard that thorough
scrutiny of dp9ik would be appreciated as Ori said, and hasn't really
been done yet... beyond my capabilities, though. I have explored dp9ik
a little bit, another document about it is this writeup:
http://felloff.net/usr/cinap_lenrek/newticket.txt

a preliminary rough draft roadmap:

figure out better how dp9ik is done on 9front (I've looked at this a
bit, the key exchange is used for chacha20-poly1305 PSK TLS, then a
lot is rc-based, rconnect with tlsclient...)
look at how that's different than 9legacy (libsec additions, etc.
figure out which parts should be different patches)
then make a better roadmap

another question already, though a bit early for it... how are 9legacy
patches generated? on 9front as far as I know everything is in
mercurial and people use hg diff

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10 21:50         ` Eli Cohen
@ 2021-02-10 22:00           ` ori
  2021-02-10 22:26             ` David du Colombier
  2021-02-12 16:39           ` ori
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2021-02-10 22:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com>:
> 
> another question already, though a bit early for it... how are 9legacy
> patches generated? on 9front as far as I know everything is in
> mercurial and people use hg diff

patch/create, as far as I know.

The question is whether there is anyone willing or able to
apply the patch. I tried sending some in at one point, and
got silence.

Note that the last time I looked on 9legacy, '9fs sources'
still pointed to the bell labs site, so you'd have to patch
9fs to use the 9p.io mirror if you want to submit a patch.


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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10 22:00           ` ori
@ 2021-02-10 22:26             ` David du Colombier
  2021-02-11  5:49               ` ori
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: David du Colombier @ 2021-02-10 22:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> > another question already, though a bit early for it... how are 9legacy
> > patches generated? on 9front as far as I know everything is in
> > mercurial and people use hg diff

9legacy patches are available as "unified diff" format and
are generated with "ape/diff -Nru".

I tend to prefer ape/diff to patch/create because it includes
everything in a single file and can handle file deletions.
It's also easier to read without using external tools.

> The question is whether there is anyone willing or able to
> apply the patch. I tried sending some in at one point, and
> got silence.

Feel free to ping me again if I missed something you sent me.

> Note that the last time I looked on 9legacy, '9fs sources'
> still pointed to the bell labs site, so you'd have to patch
> 9fs to use the 9p.io mirror if you want to submit a patch.

9legacy includes a patch to 9fs which replaces plan9.bell-labs.com
by 9p.io.

-- 
David du Colombier

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10 22:26             ` David du Colombier
@ 2021-02-11  5:49               ` ori
  2021-02-11  7:24                 ` Lucio De Re
                                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2021-02-11  5:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>:
> 9legacy patches are available as "unified diff" format and
> are generated with "ape/diff -Nru".

Alright, noted for the future.

> Feel free to ping me again if I missed something you sent me.

When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple
of utilities and changes:

        /n/sources/patch/walk
        /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split

I also noticed that the changes that lufia had done on
the github repo have largely gone uncommented:

        https://github.com/0intro/plan9-contrib/pulls
        https://github.com/lufia/plan9

> 9legacy includes a patch to 9fs which replaces plan9.bell-labs.com
> by 9p.io.
> 

Ah, great -- it's been a while since I tried it.


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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-11  5:49               ` ori
@ 2021-02-11  7:24                 ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-11  8:57                   ` Jens Staal
  2021-02-11 10:31                   ` hiro
  2021-02-11  8:40                 ` David du Colombier
  2021-02-22 18:44                 ` David du Colombier
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-11  7:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 2/11/21, ori@eigenstate.org <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:
> Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>:
>> 9legacy patches are available as "unified diff" format and
>> are generated with "ape/diff -Nru".
>
> Alright, noted for the future.
>

Here's what I' ve been thinking about that may be worth sharing: I'd
like to have working 9legacy, 9pi (which I'd like to call 9muller,
frankly, if only for clarity, but also because it is what I run on my
i386 workstation, not yet the network server), 9atom and last, just to
emphasise it is NOT least, 9front. Each of those have useful
differences and even though I never really make any progress, I like
to think that there is "One plan 9" struggling to be born from these
variations.

So my question is this: what would be an optimal arrangement to have
all of these variation publicly available and reasonably maintained?
At worst, as downloadable VM images, at best along the lines of the Go
builders, where changes can be tentatively applied and tested?

Would the Plan 9 Foundation be interested in proposing to this
community that such a concept be pursued and properly maintained and
laying down a project path to achieve this objective? Could there be
much smaller portions of such an objective that could be progressively
achieved in a distributed, centrally managed manner?

Lucio

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-11  5:49               ` ori
  2021-02-11  7:24                 ` Lucio De Re
@ 2021-02-11  8:40                 ` David du Colombier
  2021-02-12  1:21                   ` ori
  2021-02-22 18:44                 ` David du Colombier
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: David du Colombier @ 2021-02-11  8:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple
> of utilities and changes:
> 
>         /n/sources/patch/walk
>         /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split

Thanks. I'll review these changes and eventually include
them into 9legacy.

> I also noticed that the changes that lufia had done on
> the github repo have largely gone uncommented:
> 
>         https://github.com/0intro/plan9-contrib/pulls
>         https://github.com/lufia/plan9

Lufia did a lot of interesting stuff on APE. I've not merged
them yet because I wasn't sure how it fits with changes other
people have done on APE.

-- 
David du Colombier

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-11  7:24                 ` Lucio De Re
@ 2021-02-11  8:57                   ` Jens Staal
  2021-02-11 10:31                   ` hiro
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Jens Staal @ 2021-02-11  8:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 09:24:38AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> On 2/11/21, ori@eigenstate.org <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:
> > Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>:
> >> 9legacy patches are available as "unified diff" format and
> >> are generated with "ape/diff -Nru".
> >
> > Alright, noted for the future.
> >
> 
> Here's what I' ve been thinking about that may be worth sharing: I'd
> like to have working 9legacy, 9pi (which I'd like to call 9muller,
> frankly, if only for clarity, but also because it is what I run on my
> i386 workstation, not yet the network server), 9atom and last, just to
> emphasise it is NOT least, 9front. Each of those have useful
> differences and even though I never really make any progress, I like
> to think that there is "One plan 9" struggling to be born from these
> variations.
>

That would be great. One could even think of a model where there is a
common repository for the "common base" (sort of like illumos) and that
the current OSes remain with their own identities as "distros" or
"spins" from that common base.

It is not bad per se that people have differing visions and/or community
cultures, and that these can be cultivated in different ways. With a
common base/upstream, improvements to one could easily also be
implemented by the others.

Personally I would love to see a "spin" that takes Sigrid's 9front rio
modifications for workspaces and theming and make them default. For me
that has become a huge improvement in the UI of Plan9. Hopefully that
work will continue and improve further.

> Would the Plan 9 Foundation be interested in proposing to this
> community that such a concept be pursued and properly maintained and
> laying down a project path to achieve this objective? Could there be
> much smaller portions of such an objective that could be progressively
> achieved in a distributed, centrally managed manner?
> 

Hosting the common base at the foundation would be logical, I think.

> Lucio

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-11  7:24                 ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-11  8:57                   ` Jens Staal
@ 2021-02-11 10:31                   ` hiro
  2021-02-11 11:57                     ` Lucio De Re
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2021-02-11 10:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> I like
> to think that there is "One plan 9" struggling to be born from these
> variations.

it there's any "One plan 9" it's clearly called golang. cause all
added syscalls to any of the distributions came from there...

if that incident had not happened i'd have now claimed: the one good
thing that comes out of multiple competing plan9 distributions is that
there's a stronger urge to stay backwards compatible, as that will
provide interoperability between all competitors in the long run.

gladly the will to sync crucial changes regardless is strong enough,
so i guess it doesn't matter.

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-11 10:31                   ` hiro
@ 2021-02-11 11:57                     ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-11 13:07                       ` hiro
  2021-02-11 17:41                       ` pouya+lists.9fans
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-11 11:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 2/11/21, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I like
>> to think that there is "One plan 9" struggling to be born from these
>> variations.
>
> it there's any "One plan 9" it's clearly called golang. cause all
> added syscalls to any of the distributions came from there...
>
Well, I'd love to catch up on how NetBSD coped with the Golang
demands, their Foundation was, to the best of my knowledge, also run
by "purists". That said, I presume the new syscalls could probably be
tucked in the Go runtime. Or is it essential to match everything that
Linux does?

> if that incident had not happened i'd have now claimed: the one good
> thing that comes out of multiple competing plan9 distributions is that
> there's a stronger urge to stay backwards compatible, as that will
> provide interoperability between all competitors in the long run.
>
I don't see why that should not remain an objective, although not an
exclusive one. What I believe is that shrinking the base system is
preferable to expanding it. I'm willing to sacrifice performance for
simplicity, no matter what the public gets sold.

> gladly the will to sync crucial changes regardless is strong enough,
> so i guess it doesn't matter.
>
It does matter. The need to incorporate many bug fixes from Cinap has
been obvious for a long time. But drawing the line between bug fixes
and incompatible changes is a responsibility that needs community
agreement, even when guided by a "foundation".

I think what has kept Plan 9 ticking for the past 25 years or more, is
that this community is small enough to keep connected to the "product"
in its more abstract sense. Whatever that sense is, it is what we
share and, presumably, appreciate, so we ought to preserve it, neh?

Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-11 11:57                     ` Lucio De Re
@ 2021-02-11 13:07                       ` hiro
  2021-02-11 17:41                       ` pouya+lists.9fans
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2021-02-11 13:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

sometimes i prefer technical decisions to be taken by the people doing
the work and not the community (e.g. not me). community can be nice in
other situations, and we have several of those ready anyway, but
normally people that make nothing happen should not hold special
powers in any way.

i might add my opinion some time cause i'm just so interested, but i'm
not gonna be mad if everybody is just gonna ignore it based on my
incompetence :)

what kept plan 9 ticking is the relatively simple system design that
actual living beings are able to read and understand. especially in
contrast to the unix based systems out there this is obvious.

if you have a problem with any of the design improvements that cinap
has done to plan9 that created any kind of incompatibility please tell
us more details so we can look into it or at least explain.

On 2/11/21, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/11/21, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I like
>>> to think that there is "One plan 9" struggling to be born from these
>>> variations.
>>
>> it there's any "One plan 9" it's clearly called golang. cause all
>> added syscalls to any of the distributions came from there...
>>
> Well, I'd love to catch up on how NetBSD coped with the Golang
> demands, their Foundation was, to the best of my knowledge, also run
> by "purists". That said, I presume the new syscalls could probably be
> tucked in the Go runtime. Or is it essential to match everything that
> Linux does?
>
>> if that incident had not happened i'd have now claimed: the one good
>> thing that comes out of multiple competing plan9 distributions is that
>> there's a stronger urge to stay backwards compatible, as that will
>> provide interoperability between all competitors in the long run.
>>
> I don't see why that should not remain an objective, although not an
> exclusive one. What I believe is that shrinking the base system is
> preferable to expanding it. I'm willing to sacrifice performance for
> simplicity, no matter what the public gets sold.
>
>> gladly the will to sync crucial changes regardless is strong enough,
>> so i guess it doesn't matter.
>>
> It does matter. The need to incorporate many bug fixes from Cinap has
> been obvious for a long time. But drawing the line between bug fixes
> and incompatible changes is a responsibility that needs community
> agreement, even when guided by a "foundation".
> 
> I think what has kept Plan 9 ticking for the past 25 years or more, is
> that this community is small enough to keep connected to the "product"
> in its more abstract sense. Whatever that sense is, it is what we
> share and, presumably, appreciate, so we ought to preserve it, neh?
> 
> Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-11 11:57                     ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-11 13:07                       ` hiro
@ 2021-02-11 17:41                       ` pouya+lists.9fans
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: pouya+lists.9fans @ 2021-02-11 17:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[lucio.dere@gmail.com]
> I think what has kept Plan 9 ticking for the past 25 years or more, is
> that this community is small enough to keep connected to the "product"
> in its more abstract sense. Whatever that sense is, it is what we
> share and, presumably, appreciate, so we ought to preserve it, neh?

Plan 9 is one of my few anchors in this growth-crazy world, and the
size and quality of the team that built it, and the community that
formed around it, have a lot to do with it I think.

Growth beyond the point of sustainability can be very corruptive.
Working with Plan 9 for me is like travelling back to a time when
things made sense and the future was full of exciting possibilities.


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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-11  8:40                 ` David du Colombier
@ 2021-02-12  1:21                   ` ori
  2021-02-12  2:55                     ` Skip Tavakkolian
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2021-02-12  1:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>:
> > When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple
> > of utilities and changes:
> > 
> >         /n/sources/patch/walk
> >         /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split
> 
> Thanks. I'll review these changes and eventually include
> them into 9legacy.

Thanks. Feel free to ask questions (or reject them).

> Lufia did a lot of interesting stuff on APE. I've not merged
> them yet because I wasn't sure how it fits with changes other
> people have done on APE.

Sure -- but some of them recently turned 2 years old,
which I'd personally find rather discouraging.

This is why I was suggesting that echoline sort out
the way to get changes committed in advance, and if
the people along that way wanted them -- otherwise,
there seems a good chance that the changes would get
stuck in limbo.


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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-12  1:21                   ` ori
@ 2021-02-12  2:55                     ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2021-02-12 17:42                       ` ori
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2021-02-12  2:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1192 bytes --]

I think the question of whether a patch is applied to the repo or kept as
an optional patch
should be: does it benefit everyone without breaking anything, fixes a bug,
or enhances security?
I use 9p.io as a reference for my setup. I appreciate that David has been
judicious with the
application of patches to the mainline.

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:22 PM <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:

> Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>:
>
> Lufia did a lot of interesting stuff on APE. I've not merged
> > them yet because I wasn't sure how it fits with changes other
> > people have done on APE.
>
> Sure -- but some of them recently turned 2 years old,
> which I'd personally find rather discouraging.
>
> This is why I was suggesting that echoline sort out
> the way to get changes committed in advance, and if
> the people along that way wanted them -- otherwise,
> there seems a good chance that the changes would get
> stuck in limbo.
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* [9fans] 9pi provenance
  2021-02-10 13:49 ` Steve Simon
@ 2021-02-12 11:09   ` Richard Miller
  2021-02-12 11:56     ` pouya+lists.9fans
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Richard Miller @ 2021-02-12 11:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

A couple of people have speculated about what exactly is in the 9pi SD card image.

I should really publish a build script, but first I would have to write one.

Informally, here's how the 9pi fossil contents were created, starting from the
Bell Labs 4th Edition download CD image on 9p.io:

1. Installed the 4e filesystem onto a freshly formatted fossil image:
    echo uname upas :upas >>/srv/fscons
    disk/mkfs -a -s /n/cd /n/cd/dist/replica/plan9.proto | disk/mkext -ud /n/fossil

2. Copied all bcm kernel source from /n/sources/contrib/miller/9/bcm on 9p.io
   to /sys/src/9/bcm

3. Applied these updates from /n/sources/patch on 9p.io
        aes-ctr
        armv7-atomic
        exec-postnote-race
        exit-wrong-parent
        pread-offset
        ramfs-fixes
        segment-overlap
        ssh2-aes-ctr
        ssh2-dh-group14
        usb-ether-lan78xx
        usbserial-ftdi-writelen

4. Applied these updates from http://9legacy.org/patch.html
        aux-wpa
        bcm-brian-man [followed by a small correction to /sys/man/3/spi]
        factotum-wpa
        fossil-wstat-qid
        libsec-tlshand12-fixes
        libsec-tlshand12-norc4
        libsec-tlshand12-nossl3
        libsec-x509-sha2
        libsec-x509-sig
        tcp-close 
        tls-devtls12
        tls-tlshand12
        usb-usbd-usb3

5. Copied the latest /sys/src/cmd/aux/wpa.c and /sys/src/cmd/auth/factotum/wpapsk.c
   from 9front.org, with a couple of small edits to remove 9front dependencies

6. Copied wifi firmware files from https://github.com/RPi-Distro/firmware-nonfree
   into /sys/lib/firmware
        brcmfmac43430-sdio.bin
        brcmfmac43430-sdio.txt
        brcmfmac43455-sdio.bin
        brcmfmac43455-sdio.clm_blob
        brcmfmac43455-sdio.txt

7. Adjusted a few config files and scripts for an easier first-time experience
   of Plan 9 on a Raspberry Pi
         /adm/timezone/local
         /adm/users
         /dist/replica/client/*
         /rc/bin/replica/pull
         /rc/bin/termrc
         /rc/bin/termrc.local
         /sys/lib/newuser
         /usr/glenda/bin/arm
         /usr/glenda/bin/rc/patch-apply
         /usr/glenda/bin/rc/riostart
         /usr/glenda/lib/profile

8. Built and installed libraries, commands and kernels for ARM, and removed the
   corresponding 386 binaries. Also ran mkindex in /sys/lib/man/lookman to update
   the database for the lookman command.

9. As an extra bonus, installed go1.14 (cross-compiled under go-linux-386), into
   /sys/lib/go1.14, along with its dependencies /rc/bin/git (a just-enough-git
   emulation from David du Columbier) and /sys/lib/tls/ca.pem which were needed
   for 'go get' (not sure if they still are).  A new /lib/namespace.local with
   'bind -a /sys/lib/go1.14/bin /bin' makes it simple to use 'go' as a command
   invoking the latest installed release.


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* Re: [9fans] 9pi provenance
  2021-02-12 11:09   ` [9fans] 9pi provenance Richard Miller
@ 2021-02-12 11:56     ` pouya+lists.9fans
  2021-02-13 14:42       ` David du Colombier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: pouya+lists.9fans @ 2021-02-12 11:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[9fans@hamnavoe.com]
> A couple of people have speculated about what exactly is in the 9pi SD card image.

Many thanks for this image.  I had also been wondering about it until
I asked and you kindly answered.  I'm very glad to have access to an
image that is close to the 4th Edition, while also including carefully
chosen patches and fixes/improvements I would have had to learn about
and try (and possibly fail at) to ensure necessary
functionality/usability.

Coming back to Plan 9 and finding my bearings again (I had only known
about the 4th and earlier editions) was much facilitated by the
availability of the 9pi image.  Perhaps someone will create a
phylogenetic tree one day to help those like me re-orient themselves.


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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-10 21:50         ` Eli Cohen
  2021-02-10 22:00           ` ori
@ 2021-02-12 16:39           ` ori
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2021-02-12 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com>:
> well... I have a few questions already. I have heard that thorough
> scrutiny of dp9ik would be appreciated as Ori said, and hasn't really
> been done yet.

I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate characterization
of what I said.

The protocol is still following p9sk1, but with an initial
secret derived using a well understood password authenticated
key exchange protocol (SPAKE2), and a complete replacement of
DES with a modern AEAD cipher (chacha20-poly1305).

More scrutiny is *always* welcome, but the algorithm used
is well scrutinized outside of plan9, and put together in
fairly well understood ways.

As far as what exists in p9sk1: It's effectively broken.

It was possible to decrypt 56 bit keys on $250,000 hardware
in less than a day, back in 1998. Over 20 years ago. By 2006,
the cost dropped to $10,000 or so.  Today, there are commercial
services like crack.sh, which claim 25 seconds for typical
unsalted password (that's us!), going up to 3.5 days for a full
brute force run.

With GPUs, it'll probably within reach of a bored teenager
soon, if it isn't already.


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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-12  2:55                     ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2021-02-12 17:42                       ` ori
  2021-02-12 17:48                         ` sirjofri
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2021-02-12 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com>:
> I think the question of whether a patch is applied to the repo or
> kept as an optional patch should be: does it benefit everyone
> without breaking anything, fixes a bug, or enhances security?  I
> use 9p.io as a reference for my setup.  I appreciate that David
> has been judicious with the application of patches to the
> mainline.

"no" is a fine answer; my complaint is that nobody
has said it. Lufia's patch is over 2 years old.

Echoline's suggestion to port dp9ik has lead to
a valid question on what sort of review dp9ik has
had, and then silence.

What review would be needed? Who would do it?
Would 9legacy prefer to leave passwords brute
forcable by default? Any decision would be fine,
but from my reading this thread, I don't see one.

Instead, there was a long thread about some sort of
unified plan 9, without anyone mentioning what they
want to unify -- or even discussing differences.
No code was mentioned by name, and none appears to
be on the way.

(As far as I'm aware, I've already cherry picked most
relevant plan9port and 9legacy bugfixes into 9front.
Are there any that I missed?)


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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-12 17:42                       ` ori
@ 2021-02-12 17:48                         ` sirjofri
  2021-02-12 18:09                           ` ori
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: sirjofri @ 2021-02-12 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

In my opinion we need some uniform core to maintain some kind of 
interoperability between different distributions. Authentication and 
encryption should be one of this core components.

And ori (and other 9front devs) should get a decision, or at least an 
answer that can result in a proper discussion, at least.

sirjofri

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-12 17:48                         ` sirjofri
@ 2021-02-12 18:09                           ` ori
  2021-02-12 20:46                             ` Lucio De Re
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2021-02-12 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de>:
> 
> And ori (and other 9front devs) should get a decision, or at least an 
> answer that can result in a proper discussion, at least.

Note: I'm not volunteering to do the work.
I currently don't even have any 9legacy
systems.

The mix of derailing the thread, and the lack of
answer for echoline, who *was* offering to do the
work, but got no answer on whether there's interest,
just rubbed me the wrong way.


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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-12 18:09                           ` ori
@ 2021-02-12 20:46                             ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-12 23:54                               ` Anthony Martin
  2021-02-13 13:34                               ` hiro
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-12 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 2/12/21, ori@eigenstate.org <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:
>
> The mix of derailing the thread, and the lack of
> answer for echoline, who *was* offering to do the
> work, but got no answer on whether there's interest,
> just rubbed me the wrong way.
>
It wasn't meant to derail the thread, it was meant to lay down some
rules so taking part would not become a competition leading to
acrimony.

You seem to have a knack for calling a spade a spade and that can be
an invaluable contribution, but the fact that we have different
objectives needs to be addressed at a philosophical level. How else
are we going to select from conflicting alternatives?

The "One plan 9" I mentioned would need to shrink rather than grow, on
the whole, to retain compatibility. Who is going to offer up anything,
if there is no known criterion by which compatibility can be measured
and occasionally sacrificed?

Ori, I'm sure you enjoy the fruit of your developments and I have no
doubt at all that others - me and git9 would be an example - would
benefit from your work. But consider my quandary: I have a Plan 9
network on which I have been unable to deploy a version of SSH that
makes it possible to interoperate with Git on my work Linux systems of
various kinds.

My colleagues frown on anything Plan 9 I contribute and I cannot
circumvent the development and production Linux systems that we are
all familiar with. For my purposes, SSH with capabilities like in
9front needs to run on traditional Plan 9, because my 9front
deployment doesn't play well on the equipment I use and much of my
Plan 9 commitments date to before 9front was a "thing".

I can perpetuate my Plan 9 problem and actually solve my work problems
using Linux and, occasionally, NetBSD. I don't want to, though, nor do
I want to spend more time on work others have already done.

Is that an unreasonable desire? Should I simply feel privileged that I
have been able to play with a pointless Plan 9 network, throw away
twenty-odd years of Plan 9 experience and simply cross over to the
Dark Side, instead, as my colleagues would prefer me to do?

Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-12 20:46                             ` Lucio De Re
@ 2021-02-12 23:54                               ` Anthony Martin
  2021-02-13 13:34                               ` hiro
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Anthony Martin @ 2021-02-12 23:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> once said:
> the fact that we have different objectives needs to be addressed at a
> philosophical level. How else are we going to select from conflicting
> alternatives?

Let a hundred flowers blossom.

  Anthony

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-12 20:46                             ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-12 23:54                               ` Anthony Martin
@ 2021-02-13 13:34                               ` hiro
  2021-02-13 14:05                                 ` Lucio De Re
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2021-02-13 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> You seem to have a knack for calling a spade a spade and that can be
> an invaluable contribution

are you implying here that by your doing the opposite you could also
be invaluably contributing something?

not sure i see the alternative you would like to propose for ori_b.

> How else
> are we going to select from conflicting alternatives?

seems like you are already busy selecting, so perhaps we'll just wait
and see how it turns out, and if it leads nowhere somebody else will
have a go at it.

i like trial & error. if there's nothing more informed to be done.

> The "One plan 9" I mentioned would need to shrink rather than grow

how about you help us shrink it. we already want to remove
fossil/venti and acme could be next.

next up: python & hg (bec. of ori's actual native git implementation).

i don't think anybody here would oppose the goal of minimalism. but
somebody has to do the work. we need really not philosophize if no
software is even discussed.

> Who is going to offer up anything,
> if there is no known criterion by which compatibility can be measured
> and occasionally sacrificed?

are you trying to convert us into a standards body? you doubting our
common sense that much?
cinap has been acting as an informal gatekeeper for a long time. we
have no written rules, but we all seem to value plan9 for the same
reasons, so i don't see much possible conflict, it's rather education
and experience, not rules that are lacking.

a lot of us care to learn more about the how's and why's of the
conventions in plan9 that manage to make a very minimal set of
machinery so much more effective than the other unix-based systems out
there.

that wish is stronger than any bureaucracy that you seem to be proposing here.

> Ori, I'm sure you enjoy the fruit of your developments and I have no
> doubt at all that others - me and git9 would be an example - would
> benefit from your work. But consider my quandary: I have a Plan 9
> network on which I have been unable to deploy a version of SSH that
> makes it possible to interoperate with Git on my work Linux systems of
> various kinds.

do you have any details about that? are your linux systems all
outdated for some reason that is outside of your control? our ssh
client is quite well supported.
perhaps make a new thread on 9front ml and include a proper bugreport,
if there's something wrong we don't know about i'm sure you can be
helped.

> My colleagues frown on anything Plan 9 I contribute and I cannot
> circumvent the development and production Linux systems that we are
> all familiar with. For my purposes, SSH with capabilities like in
> 9front needs to run on traditional Plan 9, because my 9front
> deployment doesn't play well on the equipment I use and much of my
> Plan 9 commitments date to before 9front was a "thing".

i do not understand, your colleagues made you stop using plan 9?
i don't really know what the conflict is. i'm afraid we cannot help
you with your coworkers.

> I can perpetuate my Plan 9 problem and actually solve my work problems
> using Linux and, occasionally, NetBSD. I don't want to, though, nor do
> I want to spend more time on work others have already done.

what *do* you want to work on?

> Is that an unreasonable desire? Should I simply feel privileged that I
> have been able to play with a pointless Plan 9 network, throw away
> twenty-odd years of Plan 9 experience and simply cross over to the
> Dark Side, instead, as my colleagues would prefer me to do?

i'm sure many people here would like to learn from your 20 years of
plan 9 experience.
i see no problem in being part of multiple communities at the same time.
i don't tell my more practically minded friends about computers either.
why is that a problem?

what is the dark side? for me the borders between plan9 and non-plan9
has been getting less tight, bec. with more experience i understand
how to translate mindsets, or even code, from one system to the other
without anybody in my real life ever accusing me of having watched too
many ed wood movies.

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* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-13 13:34                               ` hiro
@ 2021-02-13 14:05                                 ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-13 15:30                                   ` hiro
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-13 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 2/13/21, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> what is the dark side? for me the borders between plan9 and non-plan9
> has been getting less tight, bec. with more experience i understand
> how to translate mindsets, or even code, from one system to the other
> without anybody in my real life ever accusing me of having watched too
> many ed wood movies.
>
I have no idea how to counter the belligerence with which more
conservative suggestions than accepting 9front as the torch-bearer for
the Plan 9 religion are addressed on this forum. Thankfully, it
doesn't actually matter that I can't.

But the misunderstanding of my use of "dark side" can't go
unchallenged. The Dark Side is what drives Linux development, the need
to discover new ways in which to make Linux and Gnu software larger
and larger, irrespective of whether that leads to greater
functionality or merely cosmetic, irrelevant decorations.

That's all that I believe needs saying, the details will make for
interesting archeology, a few hundred years, if that many, from now.

Lucio.

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] 9pi provenance
  2021-02-12 11:56     ` pouya+lists.9fans
@ 2021-02-13 14:42       ` David du Colombier
  2021-02-13 14:47         ` Richard Miller
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: David du Colombier @ 2021-02-13 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

I've just updated the aux-wpa and factotum-wpa patches,
so step 5 shouldn't be required anymore.

-- 
David du Colombier

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] 9pi provenance
  2021-02-13 14:42       ` David du Colombier
@ 2021-02-13 14:47         ` Richard Miller
  2021-02-13 14:53           ` David du Colombier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Richard Miller @ 2021-02-13 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> I've just updated the aux-wpa and factotum-wpa patches,
> so step 5 shouldn't be required anymore.

I'll test that soon, thanks.

You could also make the correction to the man page for spi(3)
in your patch bcm-brian-man:

term% diff spi /n/atom/sys/man/3/spi
42,44c42,44
< and the Broadcom documentation specifies that the divisor
< must be a power of 2.
< The driver sets the divisor to the highest power of 2 that results
---
> and the divisor must be a multiple of 2.
> (The Broadcom documentation incorrectly says "power of 2".)
> The driver sets the divisor to the highest multiple of 2 that results

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] 9pi provenance
  2021-02-13 14:47         ` Richard Miller
@ 2021-02-13 14:53           ` David du Colombier
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: David du Colombier @ 2021-02-13 14:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> You could also make the correction to the man page for spi(3)
> in your patch bcm-brian-man:

Fixed. Thanks!

-- 
David du Colombier

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-13 14:05                                 ` Lucio De Re
@ 2021-02-13 15:30                                   ` hiro
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2021-02-13 15:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

perceived belligerence is generally best countered by empathy.
fault-tolerant parsing of people's intentions and a will for
de-escalation can help concentrate on the common vision.
if there is any.

perhaps you already know everything that linux does wrong, which plan9
supposedly did right ever since it's inception. personally i am still
learning more in that regard, but it becomes easier if you're part of
the inception and if people share ideas, practical experiences,
educate each other and not just doing archeology, staring in awe at
artworks, or worse: actually using the system.

i know you know i don't know what i'm saying here. i guess in contrast
it's still relevant, so i'll leave it here regardless, without my
usual minute proofreading

On 2/13/21, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/13/21, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> what is the dark side? for me the borders between plan9 and non-plan9
>> has been getting less tight, bec. with more experience i understand
>> how to translate mindsets, or even code, from one system to the other
>> without anybody in my real life ever accusing me of having watched too
>> many ed wood movies.
>>
> I have no idea how to counter the belligerence with which more
> conservative suggestions than accepting 9front as the torch-bearer for
> the Plan 9 religion are addressed on this forum. Thankfully, it
> doesn't actually matter that I can't.
> 
> But the misunderstanding of my use of "dark side" can't go
> unchallenged. The Dark Side is what drives Linux development, the need
> to discover new ways in which to make Linux and Gnu software larger
> and larger, irrespective of whether that leads to greater
> functionality or merely cosmetic, irrelevant decorations.
> 
> That's all that I believe needs saying, the details will make for
> interesting archeology, a few hundred years, if that many, from now.
> 
> Lucio.

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-11  5:49               ` ori
  2021-02-11  7:24                 ` Lucio De Re
  2021-02-11  8:40                 ` David du Colombier
@ 2021-02-22 18:44                 ` David du Colombier
  2021-02-23  4:45                   ` ori
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: David du Colombier @ 2021-02-22 18:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple
> of utilities and changes:
> 
>         /n/sources/patch/walk
>         /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split

These patches are now part of 9legacy. Thanks!

-- 
David du Colombier

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
  2021-02-22 18:44                 ` David du Colombier
@ 2021-02-23  4:45                   ` ori
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2021-02-23  4:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>:
> > When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple
> > of utilities and changes:
> > 
> >         /n/sources/patch/walk
> >         /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split
> 
> These patches are now part of 9legacy. Thanks!
> 

thank you :)

let me know if there's anything else you're interested
in cherry picking, happy to help prepare patches.


------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-02-23  4:45 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 36+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-02-10  3:27 [9fans] patches from 9front Eli Cohen
2021-02-10  3:37 ` Lucio De Re
2021-02-10  3:47   ` Eli Cohen
2021-02-10  4:14     ` Lucio De Re
2021-02-10  7:24     ` Skip Tavakkolian
2021-02-10 16:15       ` ori
2021-02-10 21:50         ` Eli Cohen
2021-02-10 22:00           ` ori
2021-02-10 22:26             ` David du Colombier
2021-02-11  5:49               ` ori
2021-02-11  7:24                 ` Lucio De Re
2021-02-11  8:57                   ` Jens Staal
2021-02-11 10:31                   ` hiro
2021-02-11 11:57                     ` Lucio De Re
2021-02-11 13:07                       ` hiro
2021-02-11 17:41                       ` pouya+lists.9fans
2021-02-11  8:40                 ` David du Colombier
2021-02-12  1:21                   ` ori
2021-02-12  2:55                     ` Skip Tavakkolian
2021-02-12 17:42                       ` ori
2021-02-12 17:48                         ` sirjofri
2021-02-12 18:09                           ` ori
2021-02-12 20:46                             ` Lucio De Re
2021-02-12 23:54                               ` Anthony Martin
2021-02-13 13:34                               ` hiro
2021-02-13 14:05                                 ` Lucio De Re
2021-02-13 15:30                                   ` hiro
2021-02-22 18:44                 ` David du Colombier
2021-02-23  4:45                   ` ori
2021-02-12 16:39           ` ori
2021-02-10 13:49 ` Steve Simon
2021-02-12 11:09   ` [9fans] 9pi provenance Richard Miller
2021-02-12 11:56     ` pouya+lists.9fans
2021-02-13 14:42       ` David du Colombier
2021-02-13 14:47         ` Richard Miller
2021-02-13 14:53           ` David du Colombier

9fans - fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

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