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Sun, 12 May 2024 11:12:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-443-g0dc955c2a-fm-20240507.001-g0dc955c2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <58674D695EE677627D0DC805814BABE7@migadu.com> References: <58674D695EE677627D0DC805814BABE7@migadu.com> Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 00:11:02 +0900 From: vic.thacker@fastmail.fm To: "leimy2k via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 01729f88-1072-11ef-84da-f6d376c5b11c Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NMWEwMGZiN2ViMGM3YmIyN2QxZjRk?= =?UTF-8?B?NGQ5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M1a00fb7eb0c7bb27d1f4d4d9:1:O7Xj5jgZqGaptKwBpMoKuNIBk7bzecFZpo3VsGWfgBU My understanding is that the initial request came from a 9legacy member to = the 9front community, and the responses were quite intriguing. It has led m= e to ponder how we might bridge the gap between these communities. There se= ems to be conflict on both sides, and for some reason, I hold 9front to hig= her standards=E2=80=94perhaps because of our more idealistic roots. The cor= e mission of 9front was always to advance the Plan 9 tradition, but not at = the cost of alienating others. >From what I observe, there seem to be only a handful of active developers r= emaining in each group. Initially, I believed we had around 30 active devel= opers in 9front and about 7 in 9legacy, but I now think I may have overesti= mated these numbers. It appears that many are staying on the sidelines, pos= sibly due to past grievances, which could explain the responses I've seen. = The developers who are active might be overextended, while those who are le= ss active might feel marginalized. Vic On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 22:23, qwx@nopenopenope.net wrote: > On Sun May 12 14:43:17 +0200 2024, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote: >> I don't mind the ad hominem attacks. I just hope things improve. I do f= ind it ironic that I'm addressing the 9front community about collaboration = and inclusiveness when I recall those as being two reasons for the inceptio= n of 9front.=20=20 >>=20 >> Vic >=20 > You hit the nail on the head there. Why *are* you addressing just the > 9front community or assuming there is no willingness to collaborate on > its part? 9legacy users so far have expressed interest in someone > else porting dp9ik (David for instance) or demanded explanations about > DES cracking (Richard) or asked for others to port or fix fossil on > 9front (Lucio), but who explicitely said that they would like to put > in some work themselves and collaborate with 9front people? Maybe I'm > beginning to misremember the rest of the thread, am I missing > anything? Could you point to *specific examples*? >=20 > 9front users demand code because they've already put in a lot of work > and it has been often ignored or dismissed, and because it would be up > to them to backport it to 9legacy -- why would they do double duty for > a system they don't use and a community which is generally not > receptive to their work? Also, do you realize that 9front right now > has upwards of 10500 changes in the repository, after 13 years? > Bringing 9legacy up to date as you've proposed would require a > colossal amount of work, all just to obtain... 9front. Do you > believe it has diverged to the point where backporting hardware > support, fixing bugs and broken or incomplete implementations and so > on will result in anything other than what 9front already is? >=20 > You yourself demand everyone, especially the 9front community, to make > suggestions, start projects, etc. What about you? What do you > suggest to do and which projects would you take part in? That's what > "just send the code" implies. Promises don't fix bugs or help > implement programs, nor help fix this one-sided conversation. >=20 > I'm asking these questions yet I fear that they will meet radio > silence or more empty walls of text, as it happens too often here > when asking "why" or how it came to this. I hope I'm wrong. >=20 > Thanks, > qwx >=20 > PS: I was about to hit send when I received Richard's mail. > Richard, thank you for the constructive and detailed response. > I hope this marks a turn of the tide. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M1a00f= b7eb0c7bb27d1f4d4d9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription