[9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[csant]

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235

"Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and  
various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX  
applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"

/c

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[David Leimbach]

On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
> http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235
>
> "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
> various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
> applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"
>
> /c
>
My sides hurt...  stop it...

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[David Leimbach]

Oh it gets better:

"Authentication is done using the Secstore client application. The
Secstore server exchanges encrypted passwords or hardware passkeys,
and stores sensitive information in memory."

I think they mean factotum.... sectore is what it sounds like... secure storage.

This author thinks GeForce is GForce too... Proofreeedingh ees hard I spose.



On 7/19/06, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
> > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235
> >
> > "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
> > various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
> > applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"
> >
> > /c
> >
> My sides hurt...  stop it...
>

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[csant]

> Oh it gets better:

"UNIX's name server, BIND, has been replaced by ndb, which is easy to
configure, much more secure, and is the partial basis for Plan 9's
powerful, distributed name space."

And since there *are* several bits and pieces of Plan 9 that I still do
not grasp, and since private namespaces have also been brought up recently
as something not every n00b gets right away: could anybody please explain
to me what exactly the Plan 9 namespaces have to do with ndb?

/c

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[LiteStar numnums]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 783 bytes --]

Hmm, what operating systems _doesn't_ have a kernel a command shell and
various C compilers (will Unununum doesn't have a kernel...).
Honestly, does that really pass as Operating System Realted News?

On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
>
> http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235
>
> "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
> various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
> applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"
>
> /c
>



--
Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny,
To that goal long ago to me assigned.
I'll follow and not falter; if my will
Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on.
-- Epictetus

He who enters his wife's dressing room is a philosopher or a fool. -- Balzac

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1159 bytes --]

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[erik quanstrom]

powerful, distributed namespace?  you mean like, uh, dns.

dns can emulate everything that ndb provides except two-level
binding.

- erik

On Wed Jul 19 17:39:03 CDT 2006, csant@csant.info wrote:
> > Oh it gets better:
>
> "UNIX's name server, BIND, has been replaced by ndb, which is easy to
> configure, much more secure, and is the partial basis for Plan 9's
> powerful, distributed name space."
>
> And since there *are* several bits and pieces of Plan 9 that I still do
> not grasp, and since private namespaces have also been brought up recently
> as something not every n00b gets right away: could anybody please explain
> to me what exactly the Plan 9 namespaces have to do with ndb?
>
> /c

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Federico G. Benavento]

Of course, there are some errors in the article, but it seems to be well intentionated
maybe a more informated 9fan could write one a lot better, where is that 9fan?

> This author thinks GeForce is GForce too... Proofreeedingh ees hard I spose.

Note: this is an entry to our Alternative Arrogant Contest.

Federico G. Benavento

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Geoffrey Avila]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, David Leimbach wrote:

> On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
> > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235
> >
> > "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
> > various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
> > applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"
> >
> > /c
> >
> My sides hurt...  stop it...
>
What, emacs is available? Why didn't anyone tell me?

-GBA

Re: Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[David Leimbach]

On 7/19/06, Federico G. Benavento <benavento@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course, there are some errors in the article, but it seems to be well intentionated
> maybe a more informated 9fan could write one a lot better, where is that 9fan?
>
> > This author thinks GeForce is GForce too... Proofreeedingh ees hard I spose.
>
> Note: this is an entry to our Alternative Arrogant Contest.
>
> Federico G. Benavento
>
>
Woot! I'm in a contest!

I just really have a certain amount of disdain for pretty much all web
"journalism".  Actually, the way Jounalism in general is these days, I
guess this article is pretty much par for the course.

The author could have at least clicked on the emacs(1) man page link
and seen the contents.  I suppose that's asking too much in terms of
"research" though.

Dave

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[csant]

> powerful, distributed namespace?  you mean like, uh, dns.
Ahh, thanks - I thought I was missing some arcane connection

:)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Christoph Lohmann]

Good morning.

Am Wed, 19 Jul 2006 18:00:55 -0700 schrieb "David Leimbach"
<leimy2k@gmail.com>:

> The author could have at least clicked on the emacs(1) man page link
> and seen the contents.  I suppose that's asking too much in terms of
> "research" though.

I know he has.

Sincerely,

Christoph

Re: Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System -

[Brantley Coile]

> The author could have at least clicked on the emacs(1) man page link
> and seen the contents.  I suppose that's asking too much in terms of
> "research" though.

cat >/bin/emacs <<!
#!/bin/rc
echo 'Memory fault - core dumped'
!
chmod +x /bin/emacs

There.  Now we have emacs.  I don't like backing store, remember, and
I only have 2GB on this machine.  Can you run emacs with less than
2GB?

Re: Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System -

[Benn Newman]

You forgot the 'echo panic > /dev/reboot'!

Brantley Coile said:
>> The author could have at least clicked on the emacs(1) man page link
>> and seen the contents.  I suppose that's asking too much in terms of
>> "research" though.
>
> cat >/bin/emacs <<!
> #!/bin/rc
> echo 'Memory fault - core dumped'
> !
> chmod +x /bin/emacs
>
> There.  Now we have emacs.  I don't like backing store, remember, and
> I only have 2GB on this machine.  Can you run emacs with less than
> 2GB?
>
>

-- 
Benn Newman

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ronald G Minnich]

erik quanstrom wrote:
> powerful, distributed namespace?  you mean like, uh, dns.
>
> dns can emulate everything that ndb provides except two-level
> binding.


this mess is kind of our fault though. If we'd get off our collective
ass(es) and write stuff for osnews ... otherwise, the wikipedia effect
applies.

I've just (re)learned the hard way: successful research is about 99% PR,
1% real work. And, there are very, very successful and well-known
researchers in this world who manage to make it 100% PR.

ron
p.s. curmudgeon  A T lanl.gov gets to me to. You can guess why.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ronald G Minnich]

LiteStar numnums wrote:
> Hmm, what operating systems _doesn't_ have a kernel a command shell and
> various C compilers (will Unununum doesn't have a kernel...).

geez, kids these days :-)

you guys have it so easy :-)

ron

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Wes Kussmaul]

Ronald G Minnich wrote:

> I've just (re)learned the hard way: successful research is about 99% 
> PR, 1% real work. And, there are very, very successful and well-known 
> researchers in this world who manage to make it 100% PR.

If what you're promoting is genuinely different, then audience education 
targeted at/through thought leaders is even more important than PR.

Waiting...

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure. 

                         P.K. Iggy
                         _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                           (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                           and the prosperity that followed)

Re: Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> The author could have at least clicked on the emacs(1) man page link
> and seen the contents.  I suppose that's asking too much in terms of
> "research" though.

Maybe he should check the cc manpage, too, just in case it's been
deprecated and replaced by perl.

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[David Leimbach]

On 7/20/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> erik quanstrom wrote:
> > powerful, distributed namespace?  you mean like, uh, dns.
> >
> > dns can emulate everything that ndb provides except two-level
> > binding.
>
>
> this mess is kind of our fault though. If we'd get off our collective
> ass(es) and write stuff for osnews ... otherwise, the wikipedia effect
> applies.

I agree.  I just think that the value of these OSNews things is
overrated.  People are going to buy into what a clearly very new
person to Plan 9 has to say about it with almost no question.

How is a person supposed to separate the grain from the chaff when
web-journalism and blogs are at the quality they are?

>
> I've just (re)learned the hard way: successful research is about 99% PR,
> 1% real work. And, there are very, very successful and well-known
> researchers in this world who manage to make it 100% PR.

Yeah, V9FS needs some PR too, and advocacy I guess to get things into
other OSes.

>
> ron
> p.s. curmudgeon  A T lanl.gov gets to me to. You can guess why.
>

Yeah that's ok, apparently I'm an arrogant asshole :-).  I can live
with that...  As long as I can occasionally still be useful.

Dave

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ronald G Minnich]

David Leimbach wrote:

> Yeah, V9FS needs some PR too, and advocacy I guess to get things into
> other OSes.

we could sure use some file systems .... gpsfs ought to just about work
fine under p9p, for example.

Although ... I'm getting real traction here with plan 9 in the embedded
psace. embedded is cool. so I can worry less about whatever linux
happens to be doing.

ron

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[erik quanstrom]

no it /does/ get better.  the /. crowd understands that most reviews are clueless.
(especially when posted to /..)  one of the first comments was the emacs man page.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[LiteStar numnums]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 776 bytes --]

Wait, wait it gets better: now slashdot is covering this 'news' item too.
Can't wait for the 'Plan9 is dead' comments to (t)roll in
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/23/1228225&from=rss

On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
>
> http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235
>
> "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
> various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
> applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"
>
> /c
>



--
Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny,
To that goal long ago to me assigned.
I'll follow and not falter; if my will
Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on.
-- Epictetus

He who enters his wife's dressing room is a philosopher or a fool. -- Balzac

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1235 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[matt]

erik quanstrom wrote:
there is no such thing as a /. crowd

your faith in it is misplaced or rather, some of us troll for glenda
> no it /does/ get better.  the /. crowd understands that most reviews are clueless.
> (especially when posted to /..)  one of the first comments was the emacs man page.
>
> - erik
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[csant]

> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/23/1228225&from=rss

Somebody posts
	"In other news, SDL now works on Plan 9"
and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL  
files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9?
/c

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Federico G. Benavento]

Hola,

> and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL
> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9?

Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list.

Federico G. Benavento

PS: no jokes in this mail.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[csant]

>> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9?
> Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list.
Well, I do also receive e-mails off-list ;) I'd be curious to know how it
works.
/c

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Dan Cross]

On Sun, Jul 23, 2006 at 06:24:10PM -0300, Federico G. Benavento wrote:
> Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list.

He is?  Shucks; that's a shame.  He was amusing in a village-idiot sort
of way.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Federico Benavento]

Hola,

> He is?  Shucks; that's a shame.  He was amusing in a village-idiot sort

everyone has a role, what's yours?

--
Federico G. Benavento

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Plan 9]

If Uriel is banned then then he's banned in the same way Boyd was,
he decided it by himself in a fit of pique. In Boyd's case he
announced it on 9fans then was silent for a few months before starting
up again. Perhaps Uriel or one of his acolytes could tell us when
he was banned?

And before you invoke the Holy Hand Grenade of Boyd, there are
many people who read this list who knew Boyd a lot longer than Uriel
(myself included) and, I bet, a lot better.


On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:24:10 -0400, Federico G. Benavento <benavento@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hola,
>
>> and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL
>> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9?
>
> Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list.
>
> Federico G. Benavento
>
> PS: no jokes in this mail.
>

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[andrey mirtchovski]

"ONE! TWO! FIVE!"
"Three, Sir!"
"THREE!"

kind of reminds you of a slashdot discussion, doesn't it? :)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Federico G. Benavento]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 592 bytes --]

From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
Date: Fri Jul 14 12:59:46 CES 2006
To: uriel@cat-v.org
Subject: Re: [9fans] wiki css

On Fri, Jul 14, 2006 at 01:22:56AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> Sieg Heil!

You can stop saying that now, and I really mean it.

From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
Date: Tue Jul 18 10:01:21 CES 2006
To: uriel@cat-v.org
CC: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

On Mon, Jul 17, 2006 at 09:11:28AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> Sieg Heil!

I asked you to stop.
Now you will now be unsubscribed from 9fans.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3828 bytes --]

From: "Plan 9" <jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com>
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:09:09 -0400
Message-ID: <op.tc7rtjd6dtyarn@fuji.hhdh.btopenzone.com>

If Uriel is banned then then he's banned in the same way Boyd was,
he decided it by himself in a fit of pique. In Boyd's case he
announced it on 9fans then was silent for a few months before starting
up again. Perhaps Uriel or one of his acolytes could tell us when
he was banned?

And before you invoke the Holy Hand Grenade of Boyd, there are
many people who read this list who knew Boyd a lot longer than Uriel
(myself included) and, I bet, a lot better.


On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:24:10 -0400, Federico G. Benavento <benavento@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hola,
>
>> and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL
>> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9?
>
> Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list.
>
> Federico G. Benavento
>
> PS: no jokes in this mail.
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[jmk]

Thank you. This is news to those of us who do not have
access to Uriel's mailbox. Other people have mentioned to me
in private mail how offensive they found Uriel's postings.
It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not,
but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity
training.

But what the fuck do I know.


On Mon Jul 24 18:27:44 EDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:

> From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
> Date: Fri Jul 14 12:59:46 CES 2006
> To: uriel@cat-v.org
> Subject: Re: [9fans] wiki css
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2006 at 01:22:56AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> > Sieg Heil!
>
> You can stop saying that now, and I really mean it.
>
> From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
> Date: Tue Jul 18 10:01:21 CES 2006
> To: uriel@cat-v.org
> CC: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
> Subject: Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2006 at 09:11:28AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> > Sieg Heil!
>
> I asked you to stop.
> Now you will now be unsubscribed from 9fans.
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ronald G Minnich]

jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:

> It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not,
> but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity
> training.

I think until he grows up, he ought to be banned. The correct decision
was made.

ron

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Dave Lukes]

Ronald G Minnich wrote:
>  jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
>
> > It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not,

Me neither: I don't run the list.

> > but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity training.

Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but* ...
so do many of us.

>  I think until he grows up, he ought to be banned. The correct
>  decision was made.

There are no "correct" decisions in cases like this, just opinions.

Speaking as someone who's grandparents died in Auschwitz,
I don't think he should have been banned simply for saying "Sieg Heil",
but I don't know the whole story.

Empirically, banning things (whether they be people or opinions) doesn't
work:
one needs to embrace and extend.

Unfortunately, one doesn't always like what one has to embrace.

D.

* Little Britain reference.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[elbing]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1083 bytes --]

I don't read the "9fans list terms of use", but if there is any law to
forbid just a thought, please warn me about it.

elbing

2006/7/25, Dave Lukes <davel@anvil.com>:
>
> Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> >  jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> >
> > > It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not,
>
> Me neither: I don't run the list.
>
> > > but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity training.
>
> Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but* ...
> so do many of us.
>
> >  I think until he grows up, he ought to be banned. The correct
> >  decision was made.
>
> There are no "correct" decisions in cases like this, just opinions.
>
> Speaking as someone who's grandparents died in Auschwitz,
> I don't think he should have been banned simply for saying "Sieg Heil",
> but I don't know the whole story.
>
> Empirically, banning things (whether they be people or opinions) doesn't
> work:
> one needs to embrace and extend.
>
> Unfortunately, one doesn't always like what one has to embrace.
>
> D.
>
> * Little Britain reference.
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1466 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[ems]

> Speaking as someone who's grandparents died in Auschwitz,
> I don't think he should have been banned simply for saying "Sieg Heil",
> but I don't know the whole story.
My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop
mutliple times.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ignacio Torres Masdeu]

On 7/25/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop
> mutliple times.

Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is
not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him
banned:
http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html

> P.S.: Apologies if someone is offended by my emails, offending was
> never my intention.  I'm sorry if a limited sense of humor is a
> problem for some people.

The translation of Sieg Heil is "heil victory", and uriel did sign as
"Führer der Dissident Plan 9 IRC Kids". It looks like a convoluted
joke about the victory of the superiority of plan9 over lesser
operatin systems. I don't like that humor either, but a ban seems like
an over-reaction.

On the other hand, one of the things that moved me to try plan9 where
uriel's presentations. Maybe he didn't invent anything, but they were
a good resume of plan9 features. He could be a good web guy.

-- 
Regards,
Ignacio Torres <http://ignacio.torresmasdeu.name/>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[ems]

On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 18:56 +0200, Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote:
> On 7/25/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop
> > mutliple times.
>
> Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is
> not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him
> banned:
> http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html

Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing
is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when
it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is
normally a worse crime than what was done.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Michael Baldwin]

I feel like responding... oh never mind.  I shall do what I'm told,
sir!  You are so right: authority needs to put its foot down and not
stand for any funny business.  Or else.

On 2006 Jul 25, at 13:27, ems wrote:

> On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 18:56 +0200, Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote:
>> On 7/25/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>> My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop
>>> mutliple times.
>>
>> Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is
>> not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him
>> banned:
>> http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html
>
> Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and
> apologizing
> is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when
> it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is
> normally a worse crime than what was done.
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Iruatã Souza (muzgo)]

2006/7/25, ems <oat@iinet.net.au>:
> On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 18:56 +0200, Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote:
> > On 7/25/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > > My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop
> > > mutliple times.
> >
> > Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is
> > not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him
> > banned:
> > http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html
>
> Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing
> is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when
> it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is
> normally a worse crime than what was done.
>

you know where to stick your authority, don't you?

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[ems]

> 'Heil' is used by austrians, in a friendly manner, btw :P
It has nothing to do with heil.
> Uriel has always been special, so is his way of making jokes.
Jokes or not he was told to stop.
> He is always up for a presentation for some Free/Open Source Congress, works on documentation and tries to convince people of his ideas - You know what that is called? Contributing.
There is much more we should thank him for.
> We all have one thing in common: We like Plan9. We can try improving situations or ban people, but I don't think you can do both.
Uriel does many good things and I hope he will in the future be allowed
to rejoin 9fans by behaving.

Anyway there is definitely no point in me discussing it as I have no
influence on uriel or 9fans. Send off those emails to uriel.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing
>> is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when
>> it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is
>> normally a worse crime than what was done.

it is sad that he is callous or ignorant enough to liken himself to
the history's most infamous war criminal just to make a joke; but
banning him for his crass joke is a mistake.

i thought it was an over-the-top sarcastic comment.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Sascha Retzki]

> Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing
> is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when
> it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is
> normally a worse crime than what was done.

'Children.. behave!'


In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. It's called civilisation, I think this world should try that out.

'Heil' is used by austrians, in a friendly manner, btw :P

Uriel has always been special, so is his way of making jokes.

He is always up for a presentation for some Free/Open Source Congress, works on documentation and tries to convince people of his ideas - You know what that is called? Contributing.

We all have one thing in common: We like Plan9. We can try improving situations or ban people, but I don't think you can do both.

Just my 2cents

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Dan Cross]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 01:33:44PM -0400, Michael Baldwin wrote:
> I feel like responding... oh never mind.  I shall do what I'm told,
> sir!  You are so right: authority needs to put its foot down and not
> stand for any funny business.  Or else.

In general I concur, but I think that, in this case, the business
wasn't funny, it was highly offending someone, that person asked the
offending party to stop, and the offending party refused.

It's not as if Uriel was making references to Star Trek or something
equally unimportant or inane.  If he had been, I'm quite sure the
reaction would have been different.

I suspect Uriel may be permitted to rejoin the list once he learns how
not to be an asshole.  Then again, that may mean he never gets to
resubscribe.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Wes Kussmaul]

Sascha Retzki wrote:
> In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. It's 
> called civilisation, I think this world should try that out.
The world is trying it out. It's alternatively called VeriSign, GeoTrust, Thawte, Comodo, etc.

As Matt Blaze puts it, "A commercial certification authority protects you from anyone whose money they refuse to take."

The problem with the no-authority-needed view of civilization is that it ignores the fact that there is some evil in everyone, and it will tend to prevail if allowed to.

Duly constituted public authority (as contrasted with MyNewCityHall(tm) brand Authority(tm)) is what tells architects and structural engineers and contractors that if they follow their natural instinct to cut corners and, say, a tunnel roof falls on someone, they'll lose their license to practice their profession. 

See quote in my sig below. 

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure. 

                         P.K. Iggy
                         _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                           (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                           and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ronald G Minnich]

Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> Sascha Retzki wrote:
>
>> In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. It's
>> called civilisation, I think this world should try that out.


we did. it failed.

see, the arpanet, ca. 1976, where we all trusted each other. Once the
masses came in, it was all over.

ron

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Wes Kussmaul]

Ronald G Minnich wrote:
>>> In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. 
>>> It's called civilisation, I think this world should try that out.
> we did. it failed.
>
> see, the arpanet, ca. 1976, where we all trusted each other. Once the 
> masses came in, it was all over.
1. CIX and others provided alternate backbones to NSF, enabling 
commercial traffic
2. Delphi (which I founded) saw the resulting opportunity and started 
bringing in the masses
3. Delphi was purchased by Rupert Murdoch, who thought the Net was a 
broadcast medium and thus blew it big time
4. AOL seized on the resulting vacuum and brought in the masses of masses.

So money transformed the Net from an ivy league faculty club into Real 
Life. Could you envision any other outcome?

Money is one of those things that removes civilization from 
civilization. And money always finds a way in. And yes, I did my part.

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure. 

                         P.K. Iggy
                         _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                           (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                           and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Nicolás Victorero Mier]

uriel is a big Plan 9 fan. Hope he'll have the chance to get back.

Greetings
Nico

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[erik quanstrom]

while you are right, the net did loose some things when everybody hopped on.
there wasn't any spam.  internet services were unblocked.  &c.

on the other hand, network bandwidth was poor and there was very little
content available.  neither google nor wikipedia would exist without the
unwashed masses.

i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter) is a story
of the good old days and constant regression or the converse.  i think it's a story
of (slightly?  how pessamistic are you?) more advances than regressions.

- erik

On Thu Jul 27 13:24:54 CDT 2006, wes@village.com wrote:
> Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> >
> > see, the arpanet, ca. 1976, where we all trusted each other. Once the
> > masses came in, it was all over.
> 1. CIX and others provided alternate backbones to NSF, enabling
> commercial traffic
> 2. Delphi (which I founded) saw the resulting opportunity and started
> bringing in the masses
> 3. Delphi was purchased by Rupert Murdoch, who thought the Net was a
> broadcast medium and thus blew it big time
> 4. AOL seized on the resulting vacuum and brought in the masses of masses.
>
> So money transformed the Net from an ivy league faculty club into Real
> Life. Could you envision any other outcome?
>
> Money is one of those things that removes civilization from
> civilization. And money always finds a way in. And yes, I did my part.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Harri Haataja]

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 09:29:04PM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
> i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter)
> is a story of the good old days and constant regression or the
> converse.  i think it's a story of (slightly?  how pessamistic are
> you?) more advances than regressions.

Depends also on how much you value the new things, I guess. It was
probably the masses that drew all kinds of companies along and now you
can contact many places, research products, get manuals and support etc.
Well.. sometimes you might.

--
"Cheer up, things could be worse."
So I cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse.
	-- from .sig of Gene Cash

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[erik quanstrom]

not to mention newspapers, magazines &c.  there are advantages
to the net today that have nothing to do with the fact that they
are new.

- erik

On Fri Jul 28 04:48:45 CDT 2006, harriha@mail.student.oulu.fi wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 09:29:04PM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
> > i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter)
> > is a story of the good old days and constant regression or the
> > converse.  i think it's a story of (slightly?  how pessamistic are
> > you?) more advances than regressions.
>
> Depends also on how much you value the new things, I guess. It was
> probably the masses that drew all kinds of companies along and now you
> can contact many places, research products, get manuals and support etc.
> Well.. sometimes you might.

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[erik quanstrom]

heh.  the internet is just a bunch of tubes that al gore invented.

- erik

On Fri Jul 28 09:02:25 CDT 2006, leimy2k@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The things I think are somewhat shameful is how people are tying to
> treat the internet like a big truck when we all know it's a series of
> tubes.
>
> Dave

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[David Leimbach]

Heh, all I know is when I got my first Personal Computer (a TI-99/4a)
I was only 6 or 7 years old, and thought it was something like our
Atari 2600.

See, I wasn't deprived of having computing power at home, but I can
totally understand how people lusted after these things in the 70s and
80s.  Ever seen how dedicated people get to their HP calculators?

I guess my point is, even though I wasn't deprived of that stuff as a
kid I really do sometimes stop and think that I'm pretty lucky to be
able to have all this technology at my fingertips.  I never would have
thought in my younger days that I could even really afford the speed
of ethernet I have at home, much less run a distributed OS like I can.

The things I think are somewhat shameful is how people are tying to
treat the internet like a big truck when we all know it's a series of
tubes.

Dave

On 7/28/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> not to mention newspapers, magazines &c.  there are advantages
> to the net today that have nothing to do with the fact that they
> are new.
>
> - erik
>
> On Fri Jul 28 04:48:45 CDT 2006, harriha@mail.student.oulu.fi wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 09:29:04PM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
> > > i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter)
> > > is a story of the good old days and constant regression or the
> > > converse.  i think it's a story of (slightly?  how pessamistic are
> > > you?) more advances than regressions.
> >
> > Depends also on how much you value the new things, I guess. It was
> > probably the masses that drew all kinds of companies along and now you
> > can contact many places, research products, get manuals and support etc.
> > Well.. sometimes you might.
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Wes Kussmaul]

erik quanstrom wrote:
> there wasn't any spam.  
Ah yes, that's one thing the immigrants from our commercial online 
services brought with them. Spam. Al Gore may have invented the Net, but 
our users invented spam.
> i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter) is a story 
> of the good old days and constant regression or the converse.  i think it's a story
> of (slightly?  how pessamistic are you?) more advances than regressions.
>   
I agree, but I'm real pessimistic about the next 5 years.

Then after the fraud and anarchy force the world to institute a 
universal ID-PKI with privacy protection, things will get better.

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure. 

                         P.K. Iggy
                         _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                           (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                           and the prosperity that followed)

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>  I never would have
> thought in my younger days that I could even really afford the speed
> of ethernet I have at home, much less run a distributed OS like I can.

it takes the children of one revolution to start another revolution.  if you
tried to keep to last generation's expectations, you get something
like gopher; but when you ignore those limitations you'd get something
like www and mosaic.  gopher died of (licensing aside), keeping to old
assumptions: it was bandwidth efficient and didn't have frivolous
things like images.

to paraphrase a friend of mine, metcalf's and moore's law are on
our side.  start building distributed systems now.

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[andrey mirtchovski]

> Are you talking about the scroll bars on Plan 9? They seem to me to be
> just like scroll bars on a plain old xterm, so I don't see what the
> Slashdot morons would be slamming--oh wait, it's Slashdot.

slashdot is also the only place where people would be commenting how
restrictive the Plan 9 license is (sometimes even referring to the
1995 one, not even the 2000 one) while slamming the OS for not being
up-to-date with whatever the current fashions are. yesterday's
discussion was similar to a bunch of lemmings running around screaming
"persistent objects! persistent objects!"... it must be that the 20
year cycle has gotten us back to the days of OO again.

the most insight comes from the anonymous posters, damn cowards :)

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[David Leimbach]

On 7/23/06, Christoph Lohmann <20h@r-36.net> wrote:
> Good morning.
>
> Am Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:40:40 -0700 schrieb "David Leimbach"
> <leimy2k@gmail.com>:
>
> > I just get REALLY tired, as I'm sure many people do, when you go to
> > read something reviewing an OS that you know about, just to see what
> > the reactions are going to be, and find it full of errors.
>
> > [...] (I'm not an expert btw) [...]
>
> > A lot of what's wrong with the image of Plan 9 is that people "just
> > don't get it".
>
> Where is your article?
>

I keep my learning experiences over @ http://mordor.tip9ug.jp/who/leimy

I found all the introductory setup material I needed on our wiki, and
from being involved and asking questions either on IRC (some of which
were met with both appropriate and seemingly inappropriate RTFMs at
the time) or on 9fans.

I doubt I could do a better job than some of the papers that already
exist by Ron Minnich or Charles Forsyth on why Plan 9 is relevant.
However as I learned things that weren't obvious I've always been
willing to share that information.

Dave

> Sincerely,
>
> Christoph
>