[9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Ron Minnich]

One thing I hear a lot: installing Plan 9 is  headache for many
people, particularly trying to trace down working docs to produce
working code:  "... it's just a maze full of dead ends."

It's like building a sofa from several different IKEA flatpacks
without instructions :-)

I know lots of you have done lots of work to make this better, but
we're not there. t's easy for many
   of us, at this point, because we have the muscle memory. For anyone
new to this, it's just
   baffling: their muscle memory is for linux.

I think one thing we could put up at the p9f.org site is a set of
simple instructions that include:
- using the WASM version in your browser
   but I'd like to see this using Lola, not rio. I've lost more people
when I show them rio ...
   whether or not it's great, it's too different for many people. The
lessons rio contain are too
   much for many people taking a first look.
- setting up with qemu. I'd most prefer to have a git repo which
contains both an ISO and source to
  drawterm which *builds*. I continue to get reports of build problems
with drawterm. If there is a
   devdraw dependency, put that in the repo too. I mention github
because it's linux friendly and
   I can set up CI to ensure that whatever people are pulling, it seems to work.
- have some way to show people they can "cpu" into the qemu instance,
and show off
   the power of that model.
- There are too many fiddly bits to get right to bring up cpu and
other services. I

The challenge: anybody want to take on any of these things?

I may try doing the github repo, since most complaints I get revolve
around qemu and linux usage.

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M2f7d863b618f244ef17c715c
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[adventures in9]

> One thing I hear a lot: installing Plan 9 is  headache for many
> people, particularly trying to trace down working docs to produce
> working code:  "... it's just a maze full of dead ends."

One of the reasons my videos exclusively demonstrate 9front is that
getting a classic Plan9 system up and running is difficult.  9front
documentation is more up to date and has fewer dead links.

9front has a bootable thumb drive image, so a basic demo of rio is
very easy.  My first video was walking through an install, and I did
another recently by request.  The only tricky part is the disk
partitioning, as that is still a fairly old fashion interface, and
sometimes the automatic option fails.

So on the 9front end, the need for "I want to demo this for an hour"
can mostly be done on the thumb drive image, and installing to actual
disk is pretty painless too.

>    but I'd like to see this using Lola, not rio. I've lost more people
> when I show them rio ...

I'm on the fence about this.
I love rio as a space to develop in.
But I can also see it as lacking in terms of what people expect from a
"desktop".
And working with people trying to port 9front to the Pinephone, there
is a need for alternatives.

rio is a good demonstration of "the Plan 9 way", but I'm open to
alternatives when need dictates it.

>   drawterm which *builds*. I continue to get reports of build problems
> with drawterm. If there is a
>    devdraw dependency, put that in the repo too.

I come across this everytime I build drawterm from source on Linux.

However, I'm using an apt based Linux distro, and every time make
errors on a dependency I can just google "(dependency name) apt" and
quickly find out how to install the needed thing.

I am a generally helpful guy, but if you are installing drawterm on
Linux, and cannot handle googling for a dependency package, I'm sure
you also have a Windows machine near buy and can just go download
drawterm.exe

> - have some way to show people they can "cpu" into the qemu instance,
> and show off
>    the power of that model.
> - There are too many fiddly bits to get right to bring up cpu and
> other services.

I do have videos walking through a full auth/fs setup and running cpu
servers, and it is quite a bit of steps.

A lot of people ask me for help after getting a basic terminal install
on qemu or the like, and I usually recommend just turning it into a
cpu server and accessing it via drawterm after that.  It is a far
better demonstration of how Plan9 works.

As mentioned, one can just run a listener for cpu service on a
terminal install.  And in that case, it should be trivial to have a
script one could grab to set a listener up in /cfg/$sysname/cpustart.
 Then all the instruction has to be is, "go grab the qcow image, run
it, run 'hget (link to listener patch)', run the script, and now you
have cpu service every time you start the VM".


Big Picture;

A lot of the quality of life work is being done on 9front.  But
9front.org is not a couple clicks away on p9f.org

I also get that 9front culture is not for everyone.

I'm not exactly sure how to bridge that gap.  All these forks were
things that happened before my time.  I'm just some guy who discovered
they like "the Plan 9 way", tries to use it, and makes videos about
it.

As someone with no emotional investment in a particular fork, I think
the Plan 9 Foundation should be about promoting Plan9 in the abstract.
And that might mean a link on p9f.org to the 9front qcow image, and
maybe getting some people to rewrite the 9front FQA to something that
looks more like the FreeBSD Handbook, and have those docs on p9f.org,
to keep the serious business aesthetic.  It could be divided up if
necessary.  cat-v.org keeps man pages for several Plan9 based systems.

Another thing might be to reach out to sdf.org (
https://sdf.org/plan9/ ).  They host a bunch of Plan9/9front stuff,
and run regular Plan9 boot camps, which is exactly just setting people
up with an account to access a cpu server they host.  If the need is
for access to a 9legacy system, maybe they could host it.

And at some point, p9f.org needs to stop being a museum to Bell Lab's
old Plan9 web site.  A bunch of the links are to 9p.io, and there are
still Lucent logos and copyrights on some of the pages.

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M25f7f53ca7ac443668df29cb
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Jacob Moody]

On 6/1/25 23:53, Cody Holliday wrote:
> Hey Jacob,
> 
> That is all really interesting! You have put a ton of work into 
> improving things.
> I myself have been thankful for the qemu builds so I can skip all the 
> rigamarole.
> 
> I think to Ron's point: why is this not clear and easy to find on the 
> 9front site?

The qemu images are listed along with all the other release images, so
I feel that's pretty out in the open. The nightly site is listed in the
FQA as well. However I would still suggest that most users at least
start with a release iso. We do a lot more testing leading up to a release
then we have automated for the nightly releases.

Most of these other things, the github mirrors and drawterm CI, are more
of a developer convenience then anything else. To me it doesn't make much
sense to advertise them as much. I shopped this stuff around local 9front
watering holes at the time. The contributions and technical discussion
happening about developing 9front code has not historically happened much
on 9fans, don't get me wrong I am very pleased that it is, however it is
not surprising that some newer changes take a bit of time to get around.

> 
> Clearly if people are having the troubles in Ron's email, then this 
> information is
> not as available or obvious as it should be.
> 
> Not denigrating your message, just pointing out a usability problem.

I have not seen the bug reports, so it is hard for me to say.
When someone had issues were they directed to finding resources in the
9front FQA? Were they directed to reporting drawterm build bugs to us?

Are there specific changes you would make to the FQA that would better
communicate this information?

> 
> I'll use your resources in the future :)
> 

Please do. :)


Thanks,
Jacob

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-Mcda621cf5f872a11e5ea3398
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Paul Lalonde]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2494 bytes --]

When I started running and developing  for Plan9 again I mostly did it from
the 9front fqa. It's a solid resource.
I would suggest one improvement: a very visible link to section 4 "9front
Installation Guide", above the fold, would ease many of the concerns of a
first time user.

Paul

On Mon, Jun 2, 2025, 10:43 a.m. Jacob Moody <moody@posixcafe.org> wrote:

> On 6/1/25 23:53, Cody Holliday wrote:
> > Hey Jacob,
> >
> > That is all really interesting! You have put a ton of work into
> > improving things.
> > I myself have been thankful for the qemu builds so I can skip all the
> > rigamarole.
> >
> > I think to Ron's point: why is this not clear and easy to find on the
> > 9front site?
>
> The qemu images are listed along with all the other release images, so
> I feel that's pretty out in the open. The nightly site is listed in the
> FQA as well. However I would still suggest that most users at least
> start with a release iso. We do a lot more testing leading up to a release
> then we have automated for the nightly releases.
>
> Most of these other things, the github mirrors and drawterm CI, are more
> of a developer convenience then anything else. To me it doesn't make much
> sense to advertise them as much. I shopped this stuff around local 9front
> watering holes at the time. The contributions and technical discussion
> happening about developing 9front code has not historically happened much
> on 9fans, don't get me wrong I am very pleased that it is, however it is
> not surprising that some newer changes take a bit of time to get around.
>
> >
> > Clearly if people are having the troubles in Ron's email, then this
> > information is
> > not as available or obvious as it should be.
> >
> > Not denigrating your message, just pointing out a usability problem.
>
> I have not seen the bug reports, so it is hard for me to say.
> When someone had issues were they directed to finding resources in the
> 9front FQA? Were they directed to reporting drawterm build bugs to us?
>
> Are there specific changes you would make to the FQA that would better
> communicate this information?
>
> >
> > I'll use your resources in the future :)
> >
> 
> Please do. :)
> 
> Thanks,
> Jacob

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M3a8e783aa1a10fbabca789ee
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4015 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[ron minnich]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4586 bytes --]

I think there's been lots of good work done, and I did find the 9front FQA
quite usable.

What I've had complaints about, and where I think the foundation can help,
is to provide a central place to connect all these disparate efforts;
provide "user journeys" (yes, I'm not fond of the term either) showing how
people get going with Plan 9; and, the most interesting to me, providing a
CI facility for installation to make sure instructions work.

For the last 30 years, CI for Plan 9 has been "the most recent person to
try it." This is not a good way to provide a reliable experience. When I
worked in ChromeOS, we had a large room full of thousands (no exaggeration)
of chromebooks, continuously running installs, all the way up to login
(robots can run trackpads and keyboards; cameras verify screen images).
Every checkin eventually ends up in a test boot. This is a very common test
strategy.

We're not going to go that far, of course. But I think it could be possible
to have a CI for (e.g.) the 9front qemu install, up to and including a
"headless drawterm" that connects via 17010 and verifies that drawterm
would work. The CI could include a compile step for drawterm, as people
keep having issues building it. If devdraw is needed, there should be a
build of that too.

It needs to be easier, for people coming from the unix world. Nothing in
their experience prepares them for Plan 9, and no matter how good they are
at this stuff, people find it difficult. It needs to be reliable and easy
and, sadly, it can't require lots of reading.

On Mon, Jun 2, 2025 at 3:05 AM Paul Lalonde <paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com>
wrote:

> When I started running and developing  for Plan9 again I mostly did it
> from the 9front fqa. It's a solid resource.
> I would suggest one improvement: a very visible link to section 4 "9front
> Installation Guide", above the fold, would ease many of the concerns of a
> first time user.
>
> Paul
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2025, 10:43 a.m. Jacob Moody <moody@posixcafe.org> wrote:
>
>> On 6/1/25 23:53, Cody Holliday wrote:
>> > Hey Jacob,
>> >
>> > That is all really interesting! You have put a ton of work into
>> > improving things.
>> > I myself have been thankful for the qemu builds so I can skip all the
>> > rigamarole.
>> >
>> > I think to Ron's point: why is this not clear and easy to find on the
>> > 9front site?
>>
>> The qemu images are listed along with all the other release images, so
>> I feel that's pretty out in the open. The nightly site is listed in the
>> FQA as well. However I would still suggest that most users at least
>> start with a release iso. We do a lot more testing leading up to a release
>> then we have automated for the nightly releases.
>>
>> Most of these other things, the github mirrors and drawterm CI, are more
>> of a developer convenience then anything else. To me it doesn't make much
>> sense to advertise them as much. I shopped this stuff around local 9front
>> watering holes at the time. The contributions and technical discussion
>> happening about developing 9front code has not historically happened much
>> on 9fans, don't get me wrong I am very pleased that it is, however it is
>> not surprising that some newer changes take a bit of time to get around.
>>
>> >
>> > Clearly if people are having the troubles in Ron's email, then this
>> > information is
>> > not as available or obvious as it should be.
>> >
>> > Not denigrating your message, just pointing out a usability problem.
>>
>> I have not seen the bug reports, so it is hard for me to say.
>> When someone had issues were they directed to finding resources in the
>> 9front FQA? Were they directed to reporting drawterm build bugs to us?
>>
>> Are there specific changes you would make to the FQA that would better
>> communicate this information?
>>
>> >
>> > I'll use your resources in the future :)
>> >
>> 
>> Please do. :)
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jacob
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M3a8e783aa1a10fbabca789ee>
>
>

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M2eb6d35e0982bb9855ae0e3c
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6242 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[ori]

Quoth ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
 
> For the last 30 years, CI for Plan 9 has been "the most recent person to
> try it." This is not a good way to provide a reliable experience. When I
> worked in ChromeOS, we had a large room full of thousands (no exaggeration)
> of chromebooks, continuously running installs, all the way up to login
> (robots can run trackpads and keyboards; cameras verify screen images).
> Every checkin eventually ends up in a test boot. This is a very common test
> strategy.

Yes, that's changed. CI for 9front is no longer "the most recent
person to try it", we do have nightly builds and tests.

- https://iso.only9fans.com hosts nightly builds and test runs. 
- mk test in /sys/src/ now runs a small set of unit and integration tests

there's lots of room for improvement here, but the basics are in place,
and additional tests that could be run would be welcome. A few ideas that
we've had, but haven't yet implemented:

- building and running the tests on all hardware we can boot on
- adding more tests for more of the code
- adding a method of sending patches in for testing before a commit
- adding fuzzing and stress testing

And a dozen other ideas that have been bounced around.

The thing needed on ci/cd is someone interested sending patches; I'm
happy to give support if someone wants to work on it.


------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M46eb5001d1828a6bd144eab7
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[ori]

Quoth ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
> The CI could include a compile step for drawterm, as people
> keep having issues building it.

Also, you keep saying this -- but if the bug reports are kept
secret, there's no way for us to actually fix this. We already
HAVE builds for this, so whatever they're running into isn't
reflected in the test setup.

Secret bug reports without specific repros don't help anyone.



------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-Mea1cee6a6c3d92e93ceceada
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Jacob Moody]

Responses in-line.

On 6/2/25 12:59, ron minnich wrote:
> I think there's been lots of good work done, and I did find the 9front FQA quite usable.
> 
> What I've had complaints about, and where I think the foundation can help, is to provide a central place to connect all these disparate efforts; provide "user journeys" (yes, I'm not fond of the term either) showing how people get going with Plan 9; and, the most interesting to me, providing a CI facility for installation to make sure instructions work.

Sure I'd love this. I was under the impression that the topic of referencing 9front on p9f.org was still not concluded however.
If someone gives me a box and the ability to spawn more I can have this done in an afternoon.
We're already 80% of the way there.

I have to ask though, what reports are you getting about installations failing?
I don't recall us having installer issues in a very long time.
I only had to touch my expect script once when we added the ability to use esp as your 9fat after writing it the first time.
If anything we see it more often that someone's specific hardware fails to boot after an install (looking at you HP), then
we do see the installer crapping out.
I agree with you that this would be very nice to have, but I am not convinced this has been an issue. Or if it has that
information has not reached us. Where are these folks who have issues with bugs in the installer? Why can't we have their
bug reports?

> 
> For the last 30 years, CI for Plan 9 has been "the most recent person to try it." This is not a good way to provide a reliable experience.

This is not the case any longer, as I pointed out we have nightly builds and test release images ourselves.

> When I worked in ChromeOS, we had a large room full of thousands (no exaggeration) of chromebooks, continuously running installs, all the way up to login (robots can run trackpads and keyboards; cameras verify screen images). Every checkin eventually ends up in a test boot. This is a very common test strategy.

I would love this, right now we don't have the funds to do this on our own.
This is the common theme between a lot of our shortcomings in the testing department. 
> 
> We're not going to go that far, of course. But I think it could be possible to have a CI for (e.g.) the 9front qemu install, up to and including a "headless drawterm" that connects via 17010 and verifies that drawterm would work. The CI could include a compile step for drawterm, as people keep having issues building it. If devdraw is needed, there should be a build of that too.
I haven't put much more effort in to this, but I have this capability with the 9front-in-a-box repo, I've tested it out on github actions already:
https://github.com/majiru/9front-in-a-box/blob/front/.github/workflows/run.yml

Granted this isn't doing it with a gui, it uses -G. Doing it with a GUI involves a whole different set of challenges but it might be interesting.
Maybe tonight I can make this run with the output of the nightly builder, and then we would have what you're looking for.

> 
> It needs to be easier, for people coming from the unix world. Nothing in their experience prepares them for Plan 9, and no matter how good they are at this stuff, people find it difficult. It needs to be reliable and easy and, sadly, it can't require lots of reading.
> 

UNIX itself also has its own challenges if you're coming from the windows/mac world, yet something compels people to learn anyway.


------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M4d9f923323cce56098e00fe4
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Ron Minnich]

by the way, this discussion has been helpful, at least to me, in
focusing thoughts on what we might do.

On Mon, Jun 2, 2025 at 4:02 PM Ron Minnich <rminnich@p9f.org> wrote:
>
> Jacob, re-reading, all the work you have done is quite impressive, and
> I'd like to find a way to link something on p9f.org to it. Further, I
> will now go try it myself. But, wow, that's very nice stuff :-)
>
> Looking at all the work people have done, my feeling is that we're
> missing "the last meter", in the sense that we're very close, but
> people are still having trouble, even very capable people.
>
> I don't want to see things like this:
> "
> I cannot connect using the plan9port drawterm, that gives me
> '/net/localhost' doesn't exist.
> I tried drawterm -a localhost!1337 -c localhost!1337 -u glenda.
> There is a 9front drawterm, but I cannot compile it. It cannot find
> the wlroots headers, No package 'wlr-protocols' found, no idea what to
> install.
> The prebuilt binaries are only for Windows... again, I am stuck.
> 1:31
> I'm putting it aside again, for "some other day", it's just a maze
> full of dead ends.
> "
>
>  I want people to have an easy path in, after which they can learn
> about the cool stuff.
>
> While I understand that rio is *the* window manager, for now, every
> time I demo'd Plan 9 in google/LANL/Sandia, I came to dread the point
> at which I swept out that first rio window, and people immediately
> ratholed into how it looked. They did not care about the cool bits,
> they focused on its lack of flair. The talks generally ended at that
> point; none of the people I was presenting to were going to give that
> interface a second chance. It would be easier with lola. That
> interface will look dated, but still relevant; and its ability to do
> tabs, and the window decorations, are something people are always
> asking for.
>
> I have this picture in my head of a p9f.org web page, showing a
> desktop with lola, and a "try it in your web browser" button, and a
> "try it on qemu" button, and a "boot it on your laptop" button.
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2025 at 2:15 PM sirjofri via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> >
> > 02.06.2025 22:50:17 Paul Lalonde <paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Stanley writes:
> > >
> > > but how do we transmit deep knowledge of strange computing concepts that experience teaches are rarely happily received (new users always know better, and/or demand their favorite tools) without inducing the candidate to read?
> > >
> > > I posit that it is easier for many users to engage with the documentation, position papers, and other materials from a position in which they have a working system in front of them on which to try out the concepts that are being described in the papers.
> > > Read a bit, install a system, try a bit, read a bit more, try a bit more, dig into some code, which magically is there and findable with the 'src' command, which they just read about.
> > 
> > That's what I roughly had planned with my "serious guide to plan 9". Turns out I'm not a writer, even though I enjoy it.
> > 
> > Here's the rough outline I wrote many months ago. If I go back to that, I should revise that. https://shithub.us/sirjofri/sergui/64335a8573bd09fd01220bd1386d1754f4c14ed3/text/f.html
> > 
> > sirjofri

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-Mde03287e8129cd82f0ded167
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

If someone dismisses rio due to a "lack of flair" they deserve to be 
left in the dark.

That said, in all fairness, rio does have some fairly serious 
accessibility issues.  Not everyone has the physical capacity to use a 
mouse or trackball.


On 6/2/25 19:02, Ron Minnich wrote:
> Jacob, re-reading, all the work you have done is quite impressive, and
> I'd like to find a way to link something on p9f.org to it. Further, I
> will now go try it myself. But, wow, that's very nice stuff :-)
>
> Looking at all the work people have done, my feeling is that we're
> missing "the last meter", in the sense that we're very close, but
> people are still having trouble, even very capable people.
>
> I don't want to see things like this:
> "
> I cannot connect using the plan9port drawterm, that gives me
> '/net/localhost' doesn't exist.
> I tried drawterm -a localhost!1337 -c localhost!1337 -u glenda.
> There is a 9front drawterm, but I cannot compile it. It cannot find
> the wlroots headers, No package 'wlr-protocols' found, no idea what to
> install.
> The prebuilt binaries are only for Windows... again, I am stuck.
> 1:31
> I'm putting it aside again, for "some other day", it's just a maze
> full of dead ends.
> "
>
>   I want people to have an easy path in, after which they can learn
> about the cool stuff.
>
> While I understand that rio is *the* window manager, for now, every
> time I demo'd Plan 9 in google/LANL/Sandia, I came to dread the point
> at which I swept out that first rio window, and people immediately
> ratholed into how it looked. They did not care about the cool bits,
> they focused on its lack of flair. The talks generally ended at that
> point; none of the people I was presenting to were going to give that
> interface a second chance. It would be easier with lola. That
> interface will look dated, but still relevant; and its ability to do
> tabs, and the window decorations, are something people are always
> asking for.
>
> I have this picture in my head of a p9f.org web page, showing a
> desktop with lola, and a "try it in your web browser" button, and a
> "try it on qemu" button, and a "boot it on your laptop" button.
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2025 at 2:15 PM sirjofri via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>> 02.06.2025 22:50:17 Paul Lalonde <paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Stanley writes:
>>>
>>> but how do we transmit deep knowledge of strange computing concepts that experience teaches are rarely happily received (new users always know better, and/or demand their favorite tools) without inducing the candidate to read?
>>>
>>> I posit that it is easier for many users to engage with the documentation, position papers, and other materials from a position in which they have a working system in front of them on which to try out the concepts that are being described in the papers.
>>> Read a bit, install a system, try a bit, read a bit more, try a bit more, dig into some code, which magically is there and findable with the 'src' command, which they just read about.
>> That's what I roughly had planned with my "serious guide to plan 9". Turns out I'm not a writer, even though I enjoy it.
>>
>> Here's the rough outline I wrote many months ago. If I go back to that, I should revise that. https://shithub.us/sirjofri/sergui/64335a8573bd09fd01220bd1386d1754f4c14ed3/text/f.html
>>
>> sirjofri
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M632387559dd6bfbcd64cc2df
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-Ma5ccffe5f253c06bd43b7276
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[ori]

Quoth Ron Minnich <rminnich@p9f.org>:
> Jacob, re-reading, all the work you have done is quite impressive, and
> I'd like to find a way to link something on p9f.org to it. Further, I
> will now go try it myself. But, wow, that's very nice stuff :-)
> 
> Looking at all the work people have done, my feeling is that we're
> missing "the last meter", in the sense that we're very close, but
> people are still having trouble, even very capable people.
> 
> I don't want to see things like this:

Thanks for actually giving the specific dead ends. This is helpful.

> "
> I cannot connect using the plan9port drawterm, that gives me
> '/net/localhost' doesn't exist.
> I tried drawterm -a localhost!1337 -c localhost!1337 -u glenda.

I'm not entirely sure what the "plan9port drawterm" means. Assuming
that it's the rsc drawterm -- yes, it's going to fail with 9front.
We've disabled p9sk1 for reasons that we've repeated over and over.

I also have no idea where they got that dialstring; it's simply not
a valid dial string.

Whatever docs they found will need to be updated; I don't know where
they found that documentation, but it's almost certainly not something
anyone in 9front maintains, and therefore we have no way to correct
it.

You'd need to do some sleuthing, find the source of the bad docs, and
update it there.

> There is a 9front drawterm, but I cannot compile it. It cannot find
> the wlroots headers, No package 'wlr-protocols' found, no idea what to
> install.
>
> The prebuilt binaries are only for Windows... again, I am stuck.
> 1:31
> I'm putting it aside again, for "some other day", it's just a maze
> full of dead ends.
> "

They'll have to install the build dependencies, which include either the
wayland or X11 headers. The specific instructions will vary by distro, so
it's very difficult to document this comprehensively, unfortunately.
Building code on Linux is a mess, and a binary built for one distro
is unlikely to work on another.

I don't think plan9 is positioned to fix linux developer experience
issues; if you're on linux, this is the universal state of getting
unpackaged software to work. Building drawterm isn't uniquely bad.

The best option would be for people who maintain packages to make an
installable package for the latest 9front drawterm. For example, it
seems that ubuntu has a (somewhat outdated, but still usable) package
called 'drawterm-9front':

        https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/drawterm-9front

qbit maintains the drawterm package for openbsd, and does a good job
of keeping it out of date, and people who care to reduce overhead of
getting started on linux would probably get a decent amount of mileage
out of duplicating that effort on linux distros.

>  I want people to have an easy path in, after which they can learn
> about the cool stuff.

Yeah, 'apt-install drawterm-9front' if you're on ubuntu will work
just fine; 'pkg_add drawterm' will do it on openbsd; I'm not sure
if you can make it easier than that. Maybe adding a 'Using linux?
check your package manager.' hint on the drawterm webpage.

> While I understand that rio is *the* window manager, for now, every
> time I demo'd Plan 9 in google/LANL/Sandia, I came to dread the point
> at which I swept out that first rio window, and people immediately
> ratholed into how it looked. They did not care about the cool bits,
> they focused on its lack of flair. The talks generally ended at that
> point; none of the people I was presenting to were going to give that
> interface a second chance. It would be easier with lola. That
> interface will look dated, but still relevant; and its ability to do
> tabs, and the window decorations, are something people are always
> asking for.

*shrugs* in my experience, it's been the opposite; people get interested
because they see me using Rio and the fact that it's obviously not the
usual Linux gets them curious. "Wait, did you just draw a window? that's
really cool! what are you using?"

> I have this picture in my head of a p9f.org web page, showing a
> desktop with lola, and a "try it in your web browser" button, and a
> "try it on qemu" button, and a "boot it on your laptop" button.

Sure, go for it!


------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-Mca76c123d493fabdc73f5acd
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[arnold]

I think the solution to "how not to require a lot of reading" is a series
of not-too-long, organized, video tutorials, showing step-by-step what
to do. I'd start with something like this:

Session 1: Why Plan 9 - what's cool, what's different

Session 2: QEMU use, so that users can dip their toes in the water

Session 3: Installation on real hardware

Session 4: Plan 9 Administration, particular in a network: DNS,
auth servers, file servers, etc.

Session 5: Writing code on Plan 9...

etc. I'm sure it'd be easy to do at least a dozen videos.

I have long wanted to dive into Plan 9 and never had the time.
Even now that I'm retired, I have too many other things higher
on my list. :-(

I have wanted to produce a good "getting into plan 9" book, by
climbing the learning curve myself and then brain dumping it
in an organized fashion into a good book. I don't see that
happening, for me, anytime soon, though, unfortunately.

HTH,

Arnold

sl@stanleylieber.com wrote:

> > It needs to be reliable and easy and, sadly, it can't require lots of
> > reading.
> 
> reliable, of course. easy, fine. but without
> requiring lots of reading, how?
> 
> plan 9 concepts are different enough that people
> have trouble getting their heads around it,
> stipulated. but is there really a shortcut to
> understanding?
> 
> the whitepapers are short. coming to plan 9 as
> a unix admin, a lot of what's in those papers
> only really made sense to me in retrospect,
> after i'd already absorbed the ideas through
> direct contact with the system.
> 
> the man pages mostly conform to the original
> unix spirit of single-page documents. the
> insistent habit of embedding command flag
> options inline in paragraphs is cumbersome
> for quick reference, but fine.
> 
> the source is generally compact and readable.
> 
> the fqa attempts to explain some of the stuff
> that's not obvious from all of the above.
> 
> but how do we transmit deep knowledge of
> strange computing concepts that experience
> teaches are rarely happily received (new users
> always know better, and/or demand their favorite
> tools) without inducing the candidate to read?
> 
> sl

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-Me128cb8aadc991286205fa8c
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[arnold]

I wasn't able to get to that outline. Is the URL correct?

Thanks,

Arnold

"sirjofri via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

> 02.06.2025 22:50:17 Paul Lalonde <paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com>:
>
> > Stanley writes:
> >
> > but how do we transmit deep knowledge of strange computing concepts that experience teaches are rarely happily received (new users always know better, and/or demand their favorite tools) without inducing the candidate to read?
> >
> > I posit that it is easier for many users to engage with the documentation, position papers, and other materials from a position in which they have a working system in front of them on which to try out the concepts that are being described in the papers.
> > Read a bit, install a system, try a bit, read a bit more, try a bit more, dig into some code, which magically is there and findable with the 'src' command, which they just read about.
> 
> That's what I roughly had planned with my "serious guide to plan 9". Turns out I'm not a writer, even though I enjoy it.
> 
> Here's the rough outline I wrote many months ago. If I go back to that, I should revise that. https://shithub.us/sirjofri/sergui/64335a8573bd09fd01220bd1386d1754f4c14ed3/text/f.html
> 
> sirjofri

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M8cc0ba24026d674a55cc17f4
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[sirjofri via 9fans]

03.06.2025 02:10:51 Ron Minnich <rminnich@p9f.org>:
> I have this picture in my head of a p9f.org web page, showing a
> desktop with lola, and a "try it in your web browser" button, and a
> "try it on qemu" button, and a "boot it on your laptop" button.

I believe the zero-effort choice for anyone would be the web option, which should be quite easy to do with v86[1].

I think that both the qemu and the "boot on laptop" option need further explanations and the user will expect some effort. They should just link to relevant subpages with guides.

It would be quite interesting to get plan 9 into something like a docker. Explicitly not because I like docker (I don't!), but I think it provides a streamlined way of getting software running, maybe even with a click on a button on a website.

1. https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=9front

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M9477b3e011fed1944ef227ae
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Lucio De Re]

On 2025/06/02 21:39, Paul Lalonde wrote:
> It's not really possible to read enough to make a smooth install "just 
> work" without significant hand-holding in the early stage. Section 4 
> of the fqa provides much of this, but it's far down the page, and many 
> readers won't get there.
Honestly? Even 3rd Edition had a bootable, runnable CD. In fact, it was 
a lot more difficult to install Xenix, SCO Unix and even Windows before 
the clever engineer at QNX got the idea of using the OS to install 
itself. The problem lies elsewhere and I think the critical thorn is 
familiarity. The easier one makes the installation, the less the user 
will be motivated to discover the differences that make an OS superior 
to another.

It's in these threads that I first heard comments about how Linux was 
being perverted to be like Windows 95 and descendants. Can you imagine 
what it would be like to support Plan 9 if it became like Linux? What is 
there to gain from repeating that bit of history?

Lucio.


------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M18846e4925c4347dd02f4eee
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Stuart Morrow]

> A two-finger-tap won't work to spawn the menu. It'd immediately select creating a new window, and one cannot draw it.

You could draw it if sweep/pointto were indifferent to which mouse
button is used.  Breaking out of sweep/pointto would have to be by
pressing the escape key.

Or windows could have a default size, like in samterm.

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M6446e2b331dee3af6f626960
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Stuart Morrow]

If your two-finger tap is bringing up the menu and selecting New, then
it must be emulating a button.  Escape would cancel the act of
drawing/selecting a window, which is currently done by "any button
other than 3".  AFAICS, expecting a mouse way to do that is the only
reason why sweep, delete, etc had to be bound to just one button.

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 at 17:36, Daniel Maslowski via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>
> I don't know what sweep/pointto is/does. A touchpad is no mouse; there is no button, but tapping with one or more fingers and gestures. What would the escape key do here? Sorry, I'm not following.
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 12:29 PM Stuart Morrow <morrow.stuart@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > A two-finger-tap won't work to spawn the menu. It'd immediately select creating a new window, and one cannot draw it.
>> 
>> You could draw it if sweep/pointto were indifferent to which mouse
>> button is used.  Breaking out of sweep/pointto would have to be by
>> pressing the escape key.
>> 
>> Or windows could have a default size, like in samterm.
>
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M79f8896fdd8dfdda754f9411
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Benjamin Riefenstahl]

Somebody on the internet writes:
> There is a 9front drawterm, but I cannot compile it. It cannot find
> the wlroots headers, No package 'wlr-protocols' found, no idea what to
> install.

I'm afraid that this is a beginners error in compiling existing software
in general.  You stick the file that is not found in your package
manager and it will tell you what to install.  By way of example e.g. on
Debian/Ubuntu:

   $ apt-file search wlroots
   libwlroots-dev: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwlroots.so
   libwlroots-dev: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/pkgconfig/wlroots.pc
   [...]

Of course, the complaint as phrased is obviously incomplete, because it
does not say which exact file is missing.

Teaching people their package manager this is probably not what
documentation for 9front or Plan 9 should be about in general.  OTOH the
README for a package like Drawterm seems a good place to tell the names
of the prerequisite packages on common systems.

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M33866e2450769f7800446e0e
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Jeremy Jackins]

Flatpack and Snap would give a portable repository experience (i.e.
with updates). However I think many find the "download and click to
launch" experience of AppImage to be nice.

Offering an AppImage for download seems like slightly lower maintainer burden.

On Tue, Jun 3, 2025 at 5:19 AM David Arnold <davida@pobox.com> wrote:
> I’m not sure on the latest status, but a Flatpak, Snap, or AppImage could deliver a similar “just one file” experience for Linux users.
> 
> I *think* AppImage is the most portable but I’m not sure that’s still accurate.
> 
> Has anyone tried to build any of these?

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-Mbe9deb8ee35c26c83eae58ed
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Willow Liquorice]

I believe the conversation was talking about creating a "demo VM" for 
Linux using an AppImage, rather than porting the format to Plan 9.

        - Willow

On 12/06/2025 18:58, Ron Minnich wrote:
> I don't see the value of appimage in a statically linked binary world
> that we have in Plan 9. What would it add?
> 
> Flatpack and Snap and friends, I'm not sure either. To run a program
> on plan 9, you construct a namespace and run it, with resources local
> and remote. Sounds like an rc script to me.
> 
> On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 12:40 PM Jeremy Jackins <jeremyjackins@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Flatpack and Snap would give a portable repository experience (i.e.
>> with updates). However I think many find the "download and click to
>> launch" experience of AppImage to be nice.
>>
>> Offering an AppImage for download seems like slightly lower maintainer burden.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2025 at 5:19 AM David Arnold <davida@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> I’m not sure on the latest status, but a Flatpak, Snap, or AppImage could deliver a similar “just one file” experience for Linux users.
>>>
>>> I *think* AppImage is the most portable but I’m not sure that’s still accurate.
>>>
>>> Has anyone tried to build any of these?

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M876cba3a911cea1539948871
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[David Arnold]

> On 13 Jun 2025, at 04:17, Ron Minnich <rminnich@p9f.org> wrote:
> 
> I don't see the value of appimage in a statically linked binary world
> that we have in Plan 9. What would it add?

The suggestion was in response to discussion of the difficulties people report getting drawterm running on Linux. 

It has dependencies and figuring out how to satisfy them on various distributions means a level of familiarity with the Linux packaging system in use that not everyone has.

A drawterm AppImage / Flatpak / Snap might avoid that issue (although might create others). 




d

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M50dd6c991f0df91d5e2dfa05
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] A challenge for all of you out there ...

[Willow Liquorice]

I think Ori was paying more attention than either of us, to be honest.

        - Willow

On 12/06/2025 21:10, ron minnich wrote:
> sorry, my bad.
> 
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 12:37 PM Willow Liquorice <willow@howhill.com 
> <mailto:willow@howhill.com>> wrote:
> 
>     I believe the conversation was talking about creating a "demo VM" for
>     Linux using an AppImage, rather than porting the format to Plan 9.
> 
>              - Willow
> 
>     On 12/06/2025 18:58, Ron Minnich wrote:
>      > I don't see the value of appimage in a statically linked binary world
>      > that we have in Plan 9. What would it add?
>      >
>      > Flatpack and Snap and friends, I'm not sure either. To run a program
>      > on plan 9, you construct a namespace and run it, with resources local
>      > and remote. Sounds like an rc script to me.
>      >
>      > On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 12:40 PM Jeremy Jackins
>     <jeremyjackins@gmail.com <mailto:jeremyjackins@gmail.com>> wrote:
>      >>
>      >> Flatpack and Snap would give a portable repository experience (i.e.
>      >> with updates). However I think many find the "download and click to
>      >> launch" experience of AppImage to be nice.
>      >>
>      >> Offering an AppImage for download seems like slightly lower
>     maintainer burden.
>      >>
>      >> On Tue, Jun 3, 2025 at 5:19 AM David Arnold <davida@pobox.com
>     <mailto:davida@pobox.com>> wrote:
>      >>> I’m not sure on the latest status, but a Flatpak, Snap, or
>     AppImage could deliver a similar “just one file” experience for
>     Linux users.
>      >>>
>      >>> I *think* AppImage is the most portable but I’m not sure that’s
>     still accurate.
>      >>>
>      >>> Has anyone tried to build any of these?
> 
>     ------------------------------------------
>     9fans: 9fans
>     Permalink:
>     https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M876cba3a911cea1539948871 <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M876cba3a911cea1539948871>
>     Delivery options:
>     https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>     <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription>
> 
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions 
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants 
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options 
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink 
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M5813efbda9ffb6a2876e4760>

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbe8e5fda6ae62f5c-M55ba66c0518bb640f4a72ae9
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription