[9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[David Leimbach]

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http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135

Dave

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Jacob Todd]

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There's an article on the wiki containing links to related info, also.

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[dexen deVries]

On Wednesday 15 of June 2011 18:23:56 David Leimbach wrote:
> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135

I'm getting tired of the level of groupthink. Yesterday it was about 
Anthropogenetic Global Warming^W^W^W Anthropogenic Climate Change (with a 
comment stating pretty much ``whether the themperatures go up or down it will 
be /obviously/ our fault anyway''); today it's mouse vs. keyboard. The 
argument? ``it feels faster in my Vim''. Geebuz.

my take on it at
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657818

-- 
dexen deVries

[[[↓][→]]]

For example, if the first thing in the file is:
   <?kzy irefvba="1.0" rapbqvat="ebg13"?>
an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional 
ROT13 encoding.

(( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt ))

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Jack Norton]

dexen deVries wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 of June 2011 18:23:56 David Leimbach wrote:
>> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
>
> I'm getting tired of the level of groupthink. Yesterday it was about
> Anthropogenetic Global Warming^W^W^W Anthropogenic Climate Change (with a
> comment stating pretty much ``whether the themperatures go up or down it will
> be /obviously/ our fault anyway''); today it's mouse vs. keyboard. The
> argument? ``it feels faster in my Vim''. Geebuz.
>
> my take on it at
> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657818
>


eh, I always figured that if you are proficient at a given interface
(you're over the learning curve) the differences here are minimal at
best.  So what if I gain a few seconds here and there.  I'm going to be
stuck behind the computer for a few hours anyway...

In the case of plan 9, I love how the textual interfaces it promotes
have *everything* in front of you.  No bloody expanding menus, or
mouse-hover pop-up retardations.  So nevermind the speed, it is the
consistency and elegance that should matter.  For the sake of sanity,
not speed.

Would Plan 9 (rio) benefit from a default mapping of magic keystrokes
that correspond to certain actions? I think so.  But only as a means of
saving your ass when your mouse explodes.  Even then, grab another pc
and drawterm or cpu in.

I will say that some of the cool cording in Plan 9 interfaces will soon
find a perfect mate in the capacitive or infrared touchscreens of today
and tomorrow (single, double, triple finger taps on the screen, etc...).
  That is my take anyway.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[John Floren]

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Jack Norton <jack@0x6a.com> wrote:
> Would Plan 9 (rio) benefit from a default mapping of magic keystrokes that
> correspond to certain actions? I think so.  But only as a means of saving
> your ass when your mouse explodes.  Even then, grab another pc and drawterm
> or cpu in.
>

I agree that some magic keystrokes could be useful with rio. Consider
Engelbart's demo--he used a mouse in the right hand and a chording
keyboard in the left. We do some chords on the mouse, but there are
only three buttons; I think there are definitely useful things that
could be done by combining mouse actions with left-handed keystrokes.
If only something simple like "Ctrl + rightclick deletes a window".

John

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Mauricio CA]

> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135

I've recently attached a mouse to my computer just to experiment with
acme of plan9 from user space, and I really liked it.

I wonder, though, if we could operate acme as a window manager like,
say, wmii.  For instance, could I write a script in acme that would
listen for user pressing Ctrl-1, Ctrl-2, Ctrl-3 etc. and then make
visible all windows with a "1", "2", "3" in their tags?  (Not that
this would make it better or faster.  It could be just a fun task to
help me understand how to interact with acme using scripts.)

Best,
Maurício

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Connor Lane Smith]

Hey,

Honestly I think both sides of this argument are completely absurd.
Yes, the mouse is best for selecting points and ranges. No, the mouse
is not better than the keyboard for other commands. The study from
1989 is basically based around the claim that it "takes two seconds to
decide upon which special-function key to press." I'm sorry, does
anyone truly believe that it takes a user two seconds to hit a common
shortcut like Ctrl-S or Ctrl-C? That's ridiculous; it may take two
seconds *until* it becomes muscle memory, which is the whole point of
keyboarding: it becomes muscle memory, whereas the mouse does not.

"By using Command X, C, and V, the user can select with one hand and
act with the other. Two-handed input. Two-handed input can result in
solid productivity gains (Buxton 1986)." Using both hands with your
computer? What a novel idea. One can clearly edit faster if one can
select ranges with the mouse and issue commands with the keyboard,
moving to full keyboard use when inserting or searching. The optimal
solution is to use *both* the mouse and keyboard, because they each
have their advantages. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

Thanks,
cls

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Harri Haataja]

On 15 June 2011 21:16, Connor Lane Smith <cls@lubutu.com> wrote:

> is not better than the keyboard for other commands. The study from
> 1989 is basically based around the claim that it "takes two seconds to
> decide upon which special-function key to press." I'm sorry, does
> anyone truly believe that it takes a user two seconds to hit a common
> shortcut like Ctrl-S or Ctrl-C? That's ridiculous; it may take two
> seconds *until* it becomes muscle memory, which is the whole point of
> keyboarding: it becomes muscle memory, whereas the mouse does not.

It is ridiculous. And I never think what keys I hit. I think "browser,
messages, back to image editing" without even forming words and the
desktops change, the flicker being just slow enough to see if any
screen has changed. I think "change two words to xxx yyy" and the
words change. If you asked me what keys did that, then I'd actually
have to think about it.

And it seems to even work if I'm stuck in an alien OS. E.g. alien
browser shortcuts like ^T ^W ^C ^V also just happen. I might have to
think what the shortcuts are for a CAD program I rarely use.

It's just like playing a musical instrument; the fingers know their
way through things you've just learned and things you didn't even know
you remembered alike, but you may have no idea what the actual notes
are any more. It's a choice between having a language the machine
understands and having RSI-inducing dragging around of a brick.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[dexen deVries]

On Wednesday 15 June 2011 20:16:49 Connor Lane Smith wrote:
> (...) The optimal
> solution is to use *both* the mouse and keyboard, because they each
> have their advantages. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

Yep.


It's the FWD vs. RWD drive depacle all over again. You can stunts drive with
RWD, you can ride safer with FWD. But for general use AWD is optimal.



On Wednesday 15 June 2011 20:37:10 Harri Haataja wrote:
> It is ridiculous. And I never think what keys I hit. I think "browser,
> messages, back to image editing" without even forming words and the
> desktops change, the flicker being just slow enough to see if any
> screen has changed. I think "change two words to xxx yyy" and the
> words change. If you asked me what keys did that, then I'd actually
> have to think about it.
>
> And it seems to even work if I'm stuck in an alien OS. E.g. alien
> browser shortcuts like ^T ^W ^C ^V also just happen. I might have to
> think what the shortcuts are for a CAD program I rarely use.
>
> It's just like playing a musical instrument; the fingers know their
> way through things you've just learned and things you didn't even know
> you remembered alike, but you may have no idea what the actual notes
> are any more. It's a choice between having a language the machine
> understands and having RSI-inducing dragging around of a brick.

In other news, VisualBasic 6 makes one more productive than Lisp. No, really,
VB programmers on average produce daily 10 times as much Lines of Code as
Lispers, ergo are more productive. And every line of code takes a VBer much
shorter to write, so again it's clearly more productive.</sarcasm>


Please have a look at the original post:
http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html

It's about appearances. Typety-typety makes us feel good. Keyboarding around
switches off (or busy-waits) a part of our brain, while providing nice tactile
and quantized visual (every character stop) stimuli in regular interval. It
feels faster, because that's how our brain is wired to measure time.

Of course noone argues for mousing through long, hierarhical menus; that's
obviously slow.



--
dexen deVries

``One can't proceed from the informal to the formal by formal means.''

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[errno]

On Wednesday, June 15, 2011 09:27:49 AM Jacob Todd wrote:
> There's an article on the wiki containing links to related info, also.
>

Does anyone have the actual text of this $50 million dollar research
apple performed? Does anyone know the actual parameters and
proficiency levels of the human subjects involved in the test? Or is
is it really the case that all we have amounts to:

"We’ve done a cool $50 million of R & D on the Apple Human Interface. We 
discovered, among other things, two pertinent facts:

Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than mousing.
The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding."

and:

"It takes two seconds to decide upon which special-function key to press."

... from some guy (Tog) who generally summarized something about something 
back in 1989; the entire result of this "cool $50 million", to point out at
that... for _new_ users unfamiliar with the mouse and unfamiliar with the
equivalent keyboard-shortcuts pertaining to an undisclosed range of specific
operations... that the mouse was indeed faster? 

Well, shit howdy! Fathom that.  For a new user. The mouse may in fact be
faster. For certain operations.  

News flash!

Our 50 bazillion dollar research has shown that tricycles are faster than
bicycles. ( ... for unskilled cyclists. )

And that automatic transmissions are faster than manual. ( ... for untrained 
drivers. )

Crawling is quicker than running. ( ... for children who haven't learned to
walk. ) 


Context is everything.


And, I know this may be really hard to believe for you flat-earth mousers
out there, who have absorbed Tog's incredibly informative articles on the 
important specifics of the research he cited... but I guarantee it doesn't 
take me _2_freaking_seconds_ to decide what keys to press; unless of 
course it's a brand new shortcut that I'm completely unfamiliar with.

And I absolutely _promise_ that if I was somehow irrevocably burdened
with:

...a... two... se...cond... de...lay... for... ev...er...y... sin...gle...
key...board... co...mmand... short...cut...  

... that I _most_certainly_ would prefer the mouse for all operations.

Yeah... I suppose it takes 2 seconds for a nascar driver to decide what
gear he should shift into, and what pedal he should press down on, 
every time he commands his vehicle to perform an operation.


I can definitely understand and accept a certain cognitive-subjective
time-perceptual-bias for mouse-vs-keyboard operations under very
particular instances: such as the new-user unaccustomed to a mouse
who is also learning a collection of unfamiliar keyboard shortcuts at the 
same time, might result in said user intuitively feeling like the keyboard
shortcuts were quicker. 

But that's an extremely narrow band of use-case; and it certainly does not
apply in any way shape or form when dealing with skilled and experienced 
users who, after undergoing the requisite learning-curve,  have internalized
to muscle-memory a library of keyboard-based operations.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:19 PM, errno <errno@cox.net> wrote:
> [words like "bazillion"]

can you summarize what you wrote using less keystrokes? the time spent
thinking your message through is certainly worth the delay in clicking
"send".

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[errno]

On Wednesday, June 15, 2011 01:30:37 PM andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:19 PM, errno <errno@cox.net> wrote:
> > [words like "bazillion"]
>
> can you summarize what you wrote using less keystrokes? the time spent
> thinking your message through is certainly worth the delay in clicking
> "send".
>

Does anyone have the actual text of this $50 million dollar research
apple performed? Does anyone know the actual parameters and
proficiency levels of the human subjects involved in the test?

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Charles Forsyth]

i've just got back to reading the list to find that
some people clearly have no difficulty using a keyboard!

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[errno]

On Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46:39 PM Charles Forsyth wrote:
> i've just got back to reading the list to find that
> some people clearly have no difficulty using a keyboard!
>

And it's certainly comforting to know that some folks really know
their way around a mouse!

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[antonio.fin]

On Jun 15, 12:25 pm, leim...@gmail.com (David Leimbach) wrote:
> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
>
> Dave

For blind people the mouse is useless.

An the computers world have opened a new world of opportunities for
the blind. Before this era, they had to use heavy machines to write,
and big, heavy and expensive books to read or study. Today they only
need a voice synthesizer software, a braille display, and a laptop.
They used keyboard-shortcuts to move because they don´t have another
way to speak with computer.

Antonio

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Gorka Guardiola]

On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:30 AM, "antonio.fin@gmail.com" <antonio.fin@gmail.com> 
>> 
> 
> For blind people the mouse is useless.
> 
> An the computers world have opened a new world of opportunities for
> the blind. Before this era, they had to use heavy machines to write,
> and big, heavy and expensive books to read or study. Today they only
> need a voice synthesizer software, a braille display, and a laptop.
> They used keyboard-shortcuts to move because they don´t have another
> way to speak with computer.

> 
To people who cannot move, a
keyboard is useless. What is your point
exactly?. You have a braille line driver
and a braille enabled version of acme with special shortcuts that the mouse conspiracy is preventing you from distributing?

G.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Guilherme Lino]

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oh yea a apple R&D from 1989 that justifies everything, they're not even
trying to sell mac os computers < irony >

its like Microsoft release a study saying widows are better than apples
or even microsoft is more productive than macOS or linux
just in a quick google search
http://gizmodo.com/348437/microsoft-says-vista-more-secure-than-xp-osx-and-linux

every company always finds the results they're looking for


there are of course things you need the mouse for, and things that are
better with it... but generally keyboard is much faster on most day tasks,
people just don't have the patience to learn it


seriously this post looks like a awful excuse for people who are on the
wrong malign list xD


--


Guilherme Lino

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[andrey mirtchovski]

> wrong malign list

Indubitably!

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Noah Evans]

What I find really curious about the mouse vs keyboard argument is
that so few people are willing to test and quantify it. I ran into an
HCI researcher a while back and posed the mouse/keyboard question to
him and he just said "Fitts's law"(ie. that the mouse requires more
movement and therefore it *must* be inherently slower). Since the core
of Tog's argument is that the part of our cognition that looks things
up is inherently slower than our spatial interactions, I'm a bit
disappointed that people seem content to rely on intuition rather than
measurement to understand the problem.

Noah



On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Guilherme Lino <guih.lino@gmail.com> wrote:
> oh yea a apple R&D from 1989 that justifies everything, they're not even
> trying to sell mac os computers < irony >
>
> its like Microsoft release a study saying widows are better than apples
> or even microsoft is more productive than macOS or linux
> just in a quick google search
> http://gizmodo.com/348437/microsoft-says-vista-more-secure-than-xp-osx-and-linux
>
> every company always finds the results they're looking for
>
>
> there are of course things you need the mouse for, and things that are
> better with it... but generally keyboard is much faster on most day tasks,
> people just don't have the patience to learn it
>
>
> seriously this post looks like a awful excuse for people who are on the
> wrong malign list xD
>
>
> --
>
>
> Guilherme Lino
>

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[antonio.fin]

On Jun 16, 2:57 pm, pau...@gmail.com (Gorka Guardiola) wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:30 AM, "antonio....@gmail.com" <antonio....@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> > For blind people the mouse is useless.
>

> To people who cannot move, a
> keyboard is useless. What is your point
> exactly?. You have a braille line driver
> and a braille enabled version of acme with special shortcuts that the mouse conspiracy is preventing you from distributing?
>
> G.
I have been working in a visually impaired school and I told to the
list what I saw.
For me is easier to use the mouse than the keyboard-shortcuts, but for
blind people mouse is useless and they are heavy users of computers,
it is not the same as your example.

How can you open a new terminal in rio without mouse?

Also, in Plan9 everything is text, this could help to easily translate
this text to braille display or to a voice synthesizer software. They
don't need 3D effects, icons or complicated windows manager, only a
simple way to move in rio without mouse, and a way to get the computer
output in their braille display or voice synthesizer.
Plan9 as research system could also work in this area, in a
homogeneous way than others big and crufty systems.
Antonio

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Oleg Finkelshteyn]

> [...]

I'd like to point out that mice (or rather, pointing devices) come in
different flavours. IBM's trackpoint, is, in my view, rather different
device from usability perspective, and most of the mouse critique in
this thread or elsewhere doesn't apply to it, while many of the stated
benefits do.
I've recently gotten Lenovo's trackpoint keyboard, which, while not
being the greatest one I used, lets me use a trackpoint on a desktop
machine, which is rather nice.
Plan 9 interface in general seems to be very suitable for trackpoint devices.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Rob Pike]

If you like mousing, mouse. If you like typing, type. One could even
imagine doing one or the other as appropriate.

Eating is faster than singing.

-rob

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Gabriel Díaz López de la llave]

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hello

this reminds me something:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kTVZiJ3Uc&feature=related

slds.

gabi


On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you like mousing, mouse. If you like typing, type. One could even
> imagine doing one or the other as appropriate.
>
> Eating is faster than singing.
>
> -rob
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Rogelio Serrano]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you like mousing, mouse. If you like typing, type. One could even
> imagine doing one or the other as appropriate.
>
> Eating is faster than singing.
>
> -rob
>
>

i hate typing a few words than grabbing for the mouse then click then
back to typing a few more words etc etc...

--
quarq consulting: agile, open source

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Gorka Guardiola]

> I have been working in a visually impaired school and I told to the
> list what I saw.
> For me is easier to use the mouse than the keyboard-shortcuts, but for
> blind people mouse is useless and they are heavy users of computers,
> it is not the same as your example.
>
http://www.hawking.org.uk/index.php/disability/thecomputer

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[dexen deVries]

On Friday 17 of June 2011 12:36:21 Rogelio Serrano wrote:
> i hate typing a few words than grabbing for the mouse then click then
> back to typing a few more words etc etc...

the layout of your desk matters. Most important, the angles of your arm when 
using mouse. Second mouse shape, third the distance to travel.

I have a very narrow keyboard [1] (with full-sized, normally spaced keys, just 
very few of them), so it's quicker to move from mouse to keyboard and back. I 
think I'd love to use a chording keyboard, either left-hand only, or left-and-
right-hand if integrated with mouse.



[1] very ergonomic thingie; got one for home and one for office
http://www.geniuseshop.com/p-10509-Slim-Computer-Keyboard-PC-USB-Genius-
LuxeMate-i200
-- 
dexen deVries

[[[↓][→]]]

For example, if the first thing in the file is:
   <?kzy irefvba="1.0" rapbqvat="ebg13"?>
an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional 
ROT13 encoding.

(( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt ))

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[hiro]

Now that you mention the trackpoint - is there an easy way to fit one
into my cherry keyboard?
Also, where is my wearable wireless thumb trackpoint?

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[simon softnet]

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Some people's contribution to this discussion is really null and
irritating..
They go like "Pfff Apple did this for the customers! oh yeah, and by the
way, the keyboard is faster in general"
Well, at least apple has indeed made the effort to publish a research!
Attracting customers or not, this doesn't mean apple's research is
necessarily false.
What do you base your arguments on?

Simon

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 2:22 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Now that you mention the trackpoint - is there an easy way to fit one
> into my cherry keyboard?
> Also, where is my wearable wireless thumb trackpoint?
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Iruatã Souza]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:57 AM, Guilherme Lino <guih.lino@gmail.com> wrote:
> better with it... but generally keyboard is much faster on most day tasks,
> people just don't have the patience to learn it
>

Measuring the keyboard versus mouse speed is such a trivial experiment
to repeat.
Still, as Noah pointed out, people rely on intuition.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[ComeauAt9Fans@gmail.com]

On Jun 17, 2011, at 5:16 AM, Noah Evans <noah.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
> .., a bit
> disappointed that people seem content to rely on intuition rather than
> measurement to understand the problem.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 

The assumption that something is fact or obvious I've observed is indeed often a common trap many fall into.  And so always something to watch out for.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Paul Lalonde]

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It sounds easy.  But few folks on this list are HCI researchers (I'll tell
you it's odd going from GPU design to HCI - but it's fun!).

None of the micro-tasks (mouse vs keyboard) that folks are going on about on
this list is meaningful to measure.  We know keyboards are good for some
things, and mice are good for others.  Leaving off my personal religion and
anecdotes (I use acme as my editor of choice), the only meaningful measure
is how well the whole system functions for your tasks.  And to really
measure that you need similar measures of expertise.  So we can compare vi
to notepad, for example, and find that "keyboard is better than mouse" by
some measure, but grab an expert acme user vs vi, and perhaps acme comes out
ahead on some task completions and behind on others.

There are, however, good models of what various interactions cost - the
bibilography on doi
10.1145/1978942.1979088<http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/1978942.1979088>
(Bonnie
John, "Using Predictive Human Performance Modls of Inspire and Support UI
Desgin Recommendations") is a recent starting point on predictive modelling
for interface design (that I have in front of me - I know there's better
sources).  I'd recommend becoming familiar with this literature, and then
trying to make the "mouse vs keyboard" argument witha straight face.

Paul

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Iruatã Souza <iru.muzgo@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:57 AM, Guilherme Lino <guih.lino@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > better with it... but generally keyboard is much faster on most day
> tasks,
> > people just don't have the patience to learn it
> >
>
> Measuring the keyboard versus mouse speed is such a trivial experiment
> to repeat.
> Still, as Noah pointed out, people rely on intuition.
>
>


-- 
I'm migrating my email.  plalonde@telus.net will soon be disconnected.
 Please use paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com from now on.

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Iruatã Souza]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Paul Lalonde <paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com> wrote:
> It sounds easy.  But few folks on this list are HCI researchers (I'll tell
> you it's odd going from GPU design to HCI - but it's fun!).
> None of the micro-tasks (mouse vs keyboard) that folks are going on about on
> this list is meaningful to measure.  We know keyboards are good for some
> things, and mice are good for others.  Leaving off my personal religion and
> anecdotes (I use acme as my editor of choice), the only meaningful measure
> is how well the whole system functions for your tasks.  And to really
> measure that you need similar measures of expertise.  So we can compare vi
> to notepad, for example, and find that "keyboard is better than mouse" by
> some measure, but grab an expert acme user vs vi, and perhaps acme comes out
> ahead on some task completions and behind on others.
> There are, however, good models of what various interactions cost - the
> bibilography on doi 10.1145/1978942.1979088 (Bonnie John, "Using Predictive
> Human Performance Modls of Inspire and Support UI Desgin Recommendations")
> is a recent starting point on predictive modelling for interface design
> (that I have in front of me - I know there's better sources).  I'd recommend
> becoming familiar with this literature, and then trying to make the "mouse
> vs keyboard" argument witha straight face.
> Paul

I can imagine that are many different stuff to test and they can be
very complicated, and I am really sorry if I made it look like I find
HCI research is a trivial matter.

By the way, the experiment I referred to as trivial is explained in
http://www.asktog.com/SunWorldColumns/S02KeyboardVMouse3.html.

Best,
iru

> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Iruatã Souza <iru.muzgo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:57 AM, Guilherme Lino <guih.lino@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > better with it... but generally keyboard is much faster on most day
>> > tasks,
>> > people just don't have the patience to learn it
>> >
>>
>> Measuring the keyboard versus mouse speed is such a trivial experiment
>> to repeat.
>> Still, as Noah pointed out, people rely on intuition.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> I'm migrating my email.  plalonde@telus.net will soon be disconnected.
>  Please use paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com from now on.
>
>

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Bakul Shah]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2318 bytes --]

I am all for more intuitive HCI design but frankly, if the small speed difference either way in mousing vs typing saves you enough time to make it worth retraining your brain and fingers, you are spending way too much time in front of the puter and have already shortened your life by more than you will save by any optimal use of mousing/keyboarding! 

On Jun 17, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Paul Lalonde wrote:

> It sounds easy.  But few folks on this list are HCI researchers (I'll tell you it's odd going from GPU design to HCI - but it's fun!).
> 
> None of the micro-tasks (mouse vs keyboard) that folks are going on about on this list is meaningful to measure.  We know keyboards are good for some things, and mice are good for others.  Leaving off my personal religion and anecdotes (I use acme as my editor of choice), the only meaningful measure is how well the whole system functions for your tasks.  And to really measure that you need similar measures of expertise.  So we can compare vi to notepad, for example, and find that "keyboard is better than mouse" by some measure, but grab an expert acme user vs vi, and perhaps acme comes out ahead on some task completions and behind on others.
> 
> There are, however, good models of what various interactions cost - the bibilography on doi 10.1145/1978942.1979088 (Bonnie John, "Using Predictive Human Performance Modls of Inspire and Support UI Desgin Recommendations") is a recent starting point on predictive modelling for interface design (that I have in front of me - I know there's better sources).  I'd recommend becoming familiar with this literature, and then trying to make the "mouse vs keyboard" argument witha straight face.
> 
> Paul
> 
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Iruatã Souza <iru.muzgo@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:57 AM, Guilherme Lino <guih.lino@gmail.com> wrote:
> > better with it... but generally keyboard is much faster on most day tasks,
> > people just don't have the patience to learn it
> >
> 
> Measuring the keyboard versus mouse speed is such a trivial experiment
> to repeat.
> Still, as Noah pointed out, people rely on intuition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> I'm migrating my email.  plalonde@telus.net will soon be disconnected.  Please use paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com from now on.
> 
> 


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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Harri Haataja]

On 17 June 2011 19:54, Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com> wrote:
> I am all for more intuitive HCI design but frankly, if the small speed
> difference either way in mousing vs typing saves you enough time to make it
> worth retraining your brain and fingers, you are spending way too much time
> in front of the puter and have already shortened your life by more than you
> will save by any optimal use of mousing/keyboarding!

Some of us have to spend our working hours in front of a computer and
once the interface stops sucking your attention and causing pain, you
can concentrate on the data in front of you instead of wasting your
time thinking about the computer or operating system quirks.

--
I appear to be temporarily using gmail's horrible interface. I
apologise for any failure in my part in trying to make it do the right
thing with post formatting.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[andrew zerger]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3057 bytes --]

I agree with the wait-lock theory of clicking keys, it applies to just about
anything involving intention, execution and outcome. "Good it worked!" or
"DOH!WTF?" .. these impressions I think are at the heart of a human,
experimentation=survival thing. That said, I also agree that the ideal
interface depends on the user. That said, I really need to look into
off-plan9 Acme/acme-like stuff through which I can replace my ssh/vi
terminals, "Notepad can run regex and send strings down some pipe, while
saving all the stupidity I have put myself through to get where I am?"
AWESOME

However, one further observation on mousing vs. typing, Explaining to the
most entry level user how to defrag the C drive on a Windows machine:

Mousing:
 Click the start menu.
 Hover on Programs or All Programs depending on your Windows version/theme.
 Hover over Accessories
 Hover over System Tools
 Click on Disk Defragmentor.
 Look for a list of selectable disks in the top-half region of the window.
 Click the disk you want to defrag in order to select it.
 Click the Defragment button in the bottom of the window.

OR..
Typing:
 open a command prompt (because this would be commonpolace)
 type: "defrag c:"
 hit the return key

I think brain-wait-locked is real, but what makes typing "superior," anyway
is that it is our native programming and networking protocol, we don't have
to compress type-oriented instructions into some visual-human-vnc terminal
in order to copy them to another server (that means person.)

The ideal UI utilizes both forms in a unified fasion, here we have a "start
menu" which is a list of executables in a set of directories, and the menu
subitems are the executables that have been executed in that directory with
varying options, sub-item-per-option. And you can copy the menu item to a
run-command-bar, edit it and execute it again, saving it back to the
menu-list as a new sub-item.

I <3 plan9,
rhoyerboat

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Harri Haataja <realblades@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 17 June 2011 19:54, Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com> wrote:
> > I am all for more intuitive HCI design but frankly, if the small speed
> > difference either way in mousing vs typing saves you enough time to make
> it
> > worth retraining your brain and fingers, you are spending way too much
> time
> > in front of the puter and have already shortened your life by more than
> you
> > will save by any optimal use of mousing/keyboarding!
>
> Some of us have to spend our working hours in front of a computer and
> once the interface stops sucking your attention and causing pain, you
> can concentrate on the data in front of you instead of wasting your
> time thinking about the computer or operating system quirks.
>
> --
> I appear to be temporarily using gmail's horrible interface. I
> apologise for any failure in my part in trying to make it do the right
> thing with post formatting.
>
>


-- 
⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/␤⎺└␊/⎼␤⎺#

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Bakul Shah]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:59:31 +0300 Harri Haataja <realblades@gmail.com>  wrote:
> On 17 June 2011 19:54, Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com> wrote:
> > I am all for more intuitive HCI design but frankly, if the small speed
> > difference either way in mousing vs typing saves you enough time to make it
> > worth retraining your brain and fingers, you are spending way too much time
> > in front of the puter and have already shortened your life by more than you
> > will save by any optimal use of mousing/keyboarding!
>
> Some of us have to spend our working hours in front of a computer and
> once the interface stops sucking your attention and causing pain, you
> can concentrate on the data in front of you instead of wasting your
> time thinking about the computer or operating system quirks.

The point is that *all* interfaces "suck" (less than optimal
for some things).  Every computer/OS/UI/editor has quirks
(something that will mess you up if you are not careful).
Regardless of what choice you make you have to deal with them!
What most of us do is to learn about them & internalize how to
deal with the quirks so that we can stop thinking about them
and instead focus on the task at hand.

I am not saying don't experiment or don't switch.  But making
a different choice based on a 12 year old study about which we
know very little except its conclusion (with a binary answer
for something n-dimensional) won't magically fix things.

If you are a newbie, you will likely become a lot more
proficient by learning from a local expert (which means using
what he does) or experimenting with various choice until you
find something that works for you.  If you have been working
with computers for a few years you have already made your
choices (by the above method or by fiat). You have already
adpated your working style to fit the tools you chose (or were
given) and retraining can be painful for most people.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[errno]

On Friday, June 17, 2011 12:57:37 AM Guilherme Lino wrote:
> oh yea a apple R&D from 1989 that justifies everything
>

Heheh, and you know it's worse even than that. Because, _what_
Apple R&D? Where can I review the tests and measurements - and
the parameters involved thereof - performed in this "cool 50 million
dollar R&D"?


<the remainder of this email is basically redundant to the above point>

The Apple R&D which Tognazzi made vague reference to, is nowhere
to be found in said article. For all anyone knows, there was no
legitimate/valid/verifiable/repeatable "R&D" done by Apple on this
particular subject. 'Tog' was apparently unable or unwilling to provide
any of the actual source material, or in fact in real details whatsoever
concerning the specifics of the research vaguely cited in said article.

In other words, how do we know for certain that users experience
"real amnesia!" when using keyboard shortcuts, and that the mouse
is objectively faster while the keyboard is merely subjectively so, and
that keyboard command shortcuts take users two seconds to perform?

Because that's what Bruce Tognazzini once wrote in a short article circa
1989.

And what's the _actual_ supporting evidence?

A few sentences from... Bruce Tognazzi! ... elaborating on his own theory,
in his own forum.

Do we have any further evidence?

Certainly! A variety of anecdotes from a variety of various people on
various forums and blogs and mailing lists supporting their various
confirmation biases on the matter.


I'd be willing to re-approach the subject: "Mousing is faster than typing
(but users do not believe it)", the moment I'm able to, you know,
review the actual evidence and tests used to support the claim.

Until then, this whole ridiculous farce is all to reminiscent of a glib little
song I was force fed as a child:

The mouse is faster, yes we know; because Tognazzi tells us so.

On Friday, June 17, 2011 07:26:32 AM ComeauAt9Fans@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 5:16 AM, Noah Evans <noah.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
> > .., a bit disappointed that people seem content to rely on intuition
> > rather than measurement to understand the problem.
>
> The assumption that something is fact or obvious I've observed is indeed
> often a common trap many fall into.
>

It's all very depressing.

):

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Guilherme Lino]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4437 bytes --]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 1:31 PM, simon softnet <ph.softnet@gmail.com> wrote:

> Some people's contribution to this discussion is really null and
> irritating..
> They go like "Pfff Apple did this for the customers! oh yeah, and by the
> way, the keyboard is faster in general"
> Well, at least apple has indeed made the effort to publish a research!
> Attracting customers or not, this doesn't mean apple's research is
> necessarily false.
> What do you base your arguments on?
>
>
if thats your contribute then your null and irritating

you just need to read the post and links on this post to understand, that
this is a non sense.

once upon the time i also liked to be with one hand on my lap and the other
playing with mouse, but i took the time to learn something different like
"KEEP YOUR DAM HANDS ON THE KEYBOARD!", and thats what I'm defending. i
still have a windows for gaming but my daily routine is on a terminal
(started with vim, and then arch linux, dwm, urxvt, zsh, vimperator) which
all i took the time to learn and configure. I'm with just almost with 8
months of this unix, vim, linux, command line , plain text, shortcuts thing
and every day i learn something new, a new shortcut that will make me even
faster, and I'm not going back :D and thats i subscribed this malign list,
cause i want to go deeper.

(I'm actually joining money together to buy a iMac xD so forget the
"HATER!!" part)

now if you ONLY excuse for an argument is talking to me about a research
made more than 20 years ago with AppleLink editor and MS-DOS word processor,
making some absurd affirmations like "taking two seconds to chose a
shortcut" (WTF?) (who were the tested subjects? togs mother?) , requested by
a company who is desperate to sell computers with a mouse. (ooohh but it was
a $50 million R&D) then go no further, the mouse is for you
if you are a person who use the PC to go to the facebook or make a school
paper work, then the mouse is for you!
seriously, i don't recommend that to my girlfriend, or to my friend who like
to edit movies or use blender,

now if you are in any informatics related business keyboard is the way
(i even do all my UML diagrams in text mode with
plantUML<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eofooJgjdE0>,
you should check it out, its much more easy to concentrate on the problem
rather than the diagram appearance)


quote from there:
"Command-Key Illusion. Since users do experience the illusion that
keyboarding is faster, there is market pressure to supply them with
"shortcuts."—even when using "shortcuts" will actually slow them down. What
I generally recommend is supplying as many "shortcuts" as demanded by the
market—the real market, not the programmer in the cubicle next to you. "

clearly makes no sense, the market (majority of the users that usually buy
computers) don't even care about shortcuts, 70%(guessing here) computer
users don't care about shortcuts, maybe 30% don't know whats that, my
girlfriend don't.. ok.. maybe CTRL-c CTRL-V (but CTRL-x is totally obscure
to her)
i should read:
"As the market don't care about shortcuts, we give you the mouse, so you can
adapt and learn and start to use easily. so we can sell more
computers"(note: not fast or efficiency)


i used Fences on windows with a ton of shortcuts on my desktop, still not
fast or productive

my Firefox browser only have 1 bar, the status bar (vimperator extension
with the config (:set gui=none)), and i bet my browsing is faster than yours
every time i want to go back, bookmark, go down up.., open a address, do a
search, i just need to press one or two key,
no need to be always traveling with the mouse up there

people are lazy, thats why they prefer the mouse, but if you spend some time
learning to use command line, vim, emacs, and configuring shortcuts
everywhere, you wont be able to leave without them.

I'm not saying mouses sucks and should die! of course i use the mouse to for
daily tasks which i find more practical(like selecting text), now is the
mouse faster than the keyboard in a general daily routine? you cant do
nothing with  the mouse! therefore not faster...

"mouse is the devils way to keep you from productivity!"

(just used the mouse to copy a paragraph the rest was all keyboard)
(to long, did not read? xD)
(sorry for my English, I'm from Portugal)

cheers

-- 


Guilherme Lino

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Federico G. Benavento]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Guilherme Lino <guih.lino@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 1:31 PM, simon softnet <ph.softnet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Some people's contribution to this discussion is really null and
>> irritating..
>> They go like "Pfff Apple did this for the customers! oh yeah, and by the
>> way, the keyboard is faster in general"
>> Well, at least apple has indeed made the effort to publish a research!
>> Attracting customers or not, this doesn't mean apple's research is
>> necessarily false.
>> What do you base your arguments on?
>
> if thats your contribute then your null and irritating
>
> you just need to read the post and links on this post to understand, that
> this is a non sense.
>
> once upon the time i also liked to be with one hand on my lap and the other
> playing with mouse, but i took the time to learn something different like
> "KEEP YOUR DAM HANDS ON THE KEYBOARD!", and thats what I'm defending. i
> still have a windows for gaming but my daily routine is on a terminal
> (started with vim, and then arch linux, dwm, urxvt, zsh, vimperator) which
> all i took the time to learn and configure. I'm with just almost with 8
> months of this unix, vim, linux, command line , plain text, shortcuts thing
> and every day i learn something new, a new shortcut that will make me even
> faster, and I'm not going back :D and thats i subscribed this malign list,
> cause i want to go deeper.
>

dude, you're a gamer of course you like cool ninja keyboard shortcuts, I most of
us just want to edit some text and maybe compile it later.
I particularly don't have the time to learn of those cool shortcuts
that will make my
life easier after I learn them. I'll choose notepad.exe over emacs any day, just
because I don't have to remember a random combination of keys just to save
a damn file.


> (I'm actually joining money together to buy a iMac xD so forget the
> "HATER!!" part)
>
> now if you ONLY excuse for an argument is talking to me about a research
> made more than 20 years ago with AppleLink editor and MS-DOS word processor,
> making some absurd affirmations like "taking two seconds to chose a
> shortcut" (WTF?) (who were the tested subjects? togs mother?) , requested by
> a company who is desperate to sell computers with a mouse. (ooohh but it was
> a $50 million R&D) then go no further, the mouse is for you
> if you are a person who use the PC to go to the facebook or make a school
> paper work, then the mouse is for you!
> seriously, i don't recommend that to my girlfriend, or to my friend who like
> to edit movies or use blender,
>
> now if you are in any informatics related business keyboard is the way
> (i even do all my UML diagrams in text mode with plantUML, you should check
> it out, its much more easy to concentrate on the problem rather than the
> diagram appearance)
>
>
> quote from there:
> "Command-Key Illusion. Since users do experience the illusion that
> keyboarding is faster, there is market pressure to supply them with
> "shortcuts."—even when using "shortcuts" will actually slow them down. What
> I generally recommend is supplying as many "shortcuts" as demanded by the
> market—the real market, not the programmer in the cubicle next to you. "
>
> clearly makes no sense, the market (majority of the users that usually buy
> computers) don't even care about shortcuts, 70%(guessing here) computer
> users don't care about shortcuts, maybe 30% don't know whats that, my
> girlfriend don't.. ok.. maybe CTRL-c CTRL-V (but CTRL-x is totally obscure
> to her)
> i should read:
> "As the market don't care about shortcuts, we give you the mouse, so you can
> adapt and learn and start to use easily. so we can sell more
> computers"(note: not fast or efficiency)
>
>
> i used Fences on windows with a ton of shortcuts on my desktop, still not
> fast or productive
>
> my Firefox browser only have 1 bar, the status bar (vimperator extension
> with the config (:set gui=none)), and i bet my browsing is faster than yours
> every time i want to go back, bookmark, go down up.., open a address, do a
> search, i just need to press one or two key,
> no need to be always traveling with the mouse up there
>
> people are lazy, thats why they prefer the mouse, but if you spend some time
> learning to use command line, vim, emacs, and configuring shortcuts
> everywhere, you wont be able to leave without them.
>
> I'm not saying mouses sucks and should die! of course i use the mouse to for
> daily tasks which i find more practical(like selecting text), now is the
> mouse faster than the keyboard in a general daily routine? you cant do
> nothing with  the mouse! therefore not faster...
>
> "mouse is the devils way to keep you from productivity!"
>
> (just used the mouse to copy a paragraph the rest was all keyboard)
> (to long, did not read? xD)
> (sorry for my English, I'm from Portugal)
>
> cheers
>
> --
>
>
> Guilherme Lino
>



-- 
Federico G. Benavento

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[John Floren]

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 9:23 AM, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
> Dave

The best part of these kind of threads is how they bring out all the
people who we've never, ever seen post before--the "been meaning to
try this Plan 9 thing" brigade, etc.

John

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[dorin bumbu]

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As many already pointed out, the "keyboard vs mouse" debate is, somehow,
useless. It's actually the application you use to be made to use the
keyboard and mouse in a efficient manner.
The most productive applications I used (in general, for the jobs they were
intended) were Blender, Labcenter Proteus suite and SolidWorks. Why? because
they were really engineered to be efficient with both the mouse and
keyboard. Also, the Blender interface is also very flexible so you can have
on the "desk" what you need and when you need. They were simply made to give
you a feeling that the keyboard and mouse makes a good team.
And I can point the worst application I ever had to use to be Cadence Orcad
Layout version 9.2/10 (I didn't bothered to use a newer  version because the
harm was made). This one has long and deep menus, hard to remember shortcuts
and simply you couldn't prioritize the interface to have what you need when
you needed it. Yes, they were very organized based on some criteria, but my
criteria on arranging things is based on frequency of use. And the keyboad
and mouse are something that doesn't belong to the same team in this
application.

My conclusion is that not the keyboard, not the mouse sould be condemned.
It's all about how the application/user interface is engineered.

Dorin

P.S. why nobody says anything about touch-pad? this may be in some cases
more efficient than mouse or keyboard. On my laptop I have scrolling arreas,
and different tapping combinations to routine tasks with wich I feel
so productive that I bought a keyboard with touchpad to my desktop computer
:)

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[Steve Simon]

> And I can point the worst application I ever had to use to be Cadence Orcad
> Layout version 9.2/10 (I didn't bothered to use a newer  version because the
> harm was made). This one has long and deep menus, hard to remember shortcuts
> and simply you couldn't prioritize the interface to have what you need when
> you needed it. Yes, they were very organized based on some criteria, but my
> criteria on arranging things is based on frequency of use. And the keyboad
> and mouse are something that doesn't belong to the same team in this
> application.

Interesting, the one of the best UIs I ever used was Viewlogic for DOS.
don't let the DOS fool you, it was basicially the Unix version ported to DOS
with its own graphics drivers.

It used a command window and mouse combination. You use the mouse to do the layout
but the command window to indicate the operation you wanted to do, e.g.
add net, add part, add bus etc.

Rather like sam IMHO.

Thats all history, later this year we move to Orcad - oh well.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 17, 2011, at 12:47 PM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 9:23 AM, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
>> Dave
> 
> The best part of these kind of threads is how they bring out all the
> people who we've never, ever seen post before--the "been meaning to
> try this Plan 9 thing" brigade, etc.
> 
> John
> 

I wrote up the wiki for the plan 9 guruplug port, and I do stuff with it.

Don't assume that quiet means we aren't using plan 9.  It might mean we are too busy to stop and talk.

If I would have known the religious poop tossing that this link would have caused, I wouldn't have posted it.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[simon softnet]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2037 bytes --]

I still think your contribution is null and irritating.
First of all, it's too long and it doesn't say anything of essence.
What's all this mumbling about your girlfriend and gamers?

Thanks for suggesting that I try and use vim in unix.
I am 26 years old now. I have been using vim since I was 17 if I remember
correctly,
when, by the way, I was developing exploits for the x86 architecture as a
hobby, and
and now I am a post graduate student in Computer Science.
I have never developed anything in windows, and I rarely even do anything in
windows,
if that says something to you about my familiarity with the unix console &
the keyboard.

I just happened to stumble upon Acme, and I gave it a try.
After nearly a decade of using vim, I decided to ditch it for Acme (which i
have been using for the past month),
because I do think it's better for my purposes.

If your read Rob Pike's paper on acme, you might find that there is some
credibility behind the argument
that mousing is sometimes smoother for programming, than exclusively relying
on keyboard shortcuts.
Now quit your frothing at the mouth because you discovered Linux and vim.

Simon


On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:42 PM, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 12:47 PM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 9:23 AM, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
> >> Dave
> >
> > The best part of these kind of threads is how they bring out all the
> > people who we've never, ever seen post before--the "been meaning to
> > try this Plan 9 thing" brigade, etc.
> >
> > John
> >
>
> I wrote up the wiki for the plan 9 guruplug port, and I do stuff with it.
>
> Don't assume that quiet means we aren't using plan 9.  It might mean we are
> too busy to stop and talk.
>
> If I would have known the religious poop tossing that this link would have
> caused, I wouldn't have posted it.
>

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[David Leimbach]

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Who are you replying to again?  This thread has become total nonsense.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 17, 2011, at 4:03 PM, simon softnet <ph.softnet@gmail.com> wrote:

> I still think your contribution is null and irritating.
> First of all, it's too long and it doesn't say anything of essence.
> What's all this mumbling about your girlfriend and gamers?
> 
> Thanks for suggesting that I try and use vim in unix.
> I am 26 years old now. I have been using vim since I was 17 if I remember correctly,
> when, by the way, I was developing exploits for the x86 architecture as a hobby, and
> and now I am a post graduate student in Computer Science.
> I have never developed anything in windows, and I rarely even do anything in windows,
> if that says something to you about my familiarity with the unix console & the keyboard.
> 
> I just happened to stumble upon Acme, and I gave it a try.
> After nearly a decade of using vim, I decided to ditch it for Acme (which i have been using for the past month),
> because I do think it's better for my purposes.
> 
> If your read Rob Pike's paper on acme, you might find that there is some credibility behind the argument
> that mousing is sometimes smoother for programming, than exclusively relying on keyboard shortcuts.
> Now quit your frothing at the mouth because you discovered Linux and vim.
> 
> Simon
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:42 PM, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 12:47 PM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 9:23 AM, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
> >> Dave
> >
> > The best part of these kind of threads is how they bring out all the
> > people who we've never, ever seen post before--the "been meaning to
> > try this Plan 9 thing" brigade, etc.
> >
> > John
> >
> 
> I wrote up the wiki for the plan 9 guruplug port, and I do stuff with it.
> 
> Don't assume that quiet means we aren't using plan 9.  It might mean we are too busy to stop and talk.
> 
> If I would have known the religious poop tossing that this link would have caused, I wouldn't have posted it.
> 

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[simon softnet]

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I was replying to guih.lino _at_ gmail.com

On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 2:35 AM, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:

> Who are you replying to again?  This thread has become total nonsense.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 4:03 PM, simon softnet <ph.softnet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I still think your contribution is null and irritating.
> First of all, it's too long and it doesn't say anything of essence.
> What's all this mumbling about your girlfriend and gamers?
>
> Thanks for suggesting that I try and use vim in unix.
> I am 26 years old now. I have been using vim since I was 17 if I remember
> correctly,
> when, by the way, I was developing exploits for the x86 architecture as a
> hobby, and
> and now I am a post graduate student in Computer Science.
> I have never developed anything in windows, and I rarely even do anything
> in windows,
> if that says something to you about my familiarity with the unix console &
> the keyboard.
>
> I just happened to stumble upon Acme, and I gave it a try.
> After nearly a decade of using vim, I decided to ditch it for Acme (which i
> have been using for the past month),
> because I do think it's better for my purposes.
>
> If your read Rob Pike's paper on acme, you might find that there is some
> credibility behind the argument
> that mousing is sometimes smoother for programming, than exclusively
> relying on keyboard shortcuts.
> Now quit your frothing at the mouth because you discovered Linux and vim.
>
> Simon
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:42 PM, David Leimbach < <leimy2k@gmail.com>
> leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 12:47 PM, John Floren < <john@jfloren.net>
>> john@jfloren.net> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 9:23 AM, David Leimbach < <leimy2k@gmail.com>
>> leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135>
>> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
>> >> Dave
>> >
>> > The best part of these kind of threads is how they bring out all the
>> > people who we've never, ever seen post before--the "been meaning to
>> > try this Plan 9 thing" brigade, etc.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>>
>> I wrote up the wiki for the plan 9 guruplug port, and I do stuff with it.
>>
>> Don't assume that quiet means we aren't using plan 9.  It might mean we
>> are too busy to stop and talk.
>>
>> If I would have known the religious poop tossing that this link would have
>> caused, I wouldn't have posted it.
>>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[John Floren]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 2:42 PM, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 12:47 PM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 9:23 AM, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
>>> Dave
>>
>> The best part of these kind of threads is how they bring out all the
>> people who we've never, ever seen post before--the "been meaning to
>> try this Plan 9 thing" brigade, etc.
>>
>> John
>>
>
> I wrote up the wiki for the plan 9 guruplug port, and I do stuff with it.
>
> Don't assume that quiet means we aren't using plan 9.  It might mean we are too busy to stop and talk.
>
> If I would have known the religious poop tossing that this link would have caused, I wouldn't have posted it.
>

Sorry David, I definitely wasn't directing that at you... I just
couldn't pick another message to reply to, so I replied to the first
message (yours).

I think there are definitely some eternal truths about 9fans: the
mouse/keyboard thing coming up every few years is one of them :)


John

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users not believe it

[William Cowan]

Iruat?? Souza <iru.muzgo@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:57 AM, Guilherme Lino <guih.lino@gmail.com> wrote:
>> better with it... but generally keyboard is much faster on most day tasks,
>> people just don't have the patience to learn it
>>

> Measuring the keyboard versus mouse speed is such a trivial experiment
> to repeat.
> Still, as Noah pointed out, people rely on intuition.

Not nearly as trivial as it looks. It is easy to find tasks on which the
keyboard outperforms the mouse 10 to 1, and it's easy to find the
opposite.

Sample tasks at random you say. What is the correct universe to sample
if we wish to substantiate the sort of categorical assertions made on
this thread?

Once you solve these problems you can start thinking about which mouse
and keyboard to use, how many different implementations you need to be
sure that you're not getting an implementation-dependent result and so
on.

Then you get down to the hard problems, like interactions between the
universe of possible subjects and all the factors above. Doing a good
experiment is difficult and time-consuming.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users not believe it

[Jack Johnson]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 8:48 AM, William Cowan <wmcowan@uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> Sample tasks at random you say. What is the correct universe to sample
> if we wish to substantiate the sort of categorical assertions made on
> this thread?

Also, familiar vs unfamiliar tasks using familiar vs unfamiliar
software. The number of UI variables are mind boggling, which is why I
find it hard to get hot headed over any of the assertions, but tend
toward trusting the research.

Beating the dead horse,

-Jack

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users not believe it

[errno]

On Tuesday, June 21, 2011 10:20:27 AM Jack Johnson wrote:
> which is why I find it hard to get hot headed over any of the assertions,
> but tend toward trusting the research.
>

What research?

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users not believe it

[Jack Johnson]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:42 AM, errno <errno@cox.net> wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 21, 2011 10:20:27 AM Jack Johnson wrote:
>> which is why I find it hard to get hot headed over any of the assertions,
>> but tend toward trusting the research.
>>
> What research?

The rabbit hole is pretty deep, but you could start with:

International Journal of Human-Computer Studies
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/10715819

...and a teaser on variables:

http://www.intechopen.com/source/pdfs/5711/InTech-The_effects_of_panel_location_target_size_and_gender_on_efficiency_in_simple_direct_manipulation_tasks.pdf

-Jack

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users not believe it

[errno]

On Tuesday, June 21, 2011 11:04:28 AM Jack Johnson wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:42 AM, errno <errno@cox.net> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 21, 2011 10:20:27 AM Jack Johnson wrote:
> >> which is why I find it hard to get hot headed over any of the
> >> assertions, but tend toward trusting the research.
> >
> > What research?
>
> The rabbit hole is pretty deep,  but you could start with:
>
> International Journal of Human-Computer Studies
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/10715819
>
> ...and a teaser on variables:
>
> http://www.intechopen.com/source/pdfs/5711/InTech-The_effects_of_panel_loca
> tion_target_size_and_gender_on_efficiency_in_simple_direct_manipulation_tas
> ks.pdf
>

Very cool, thankyou! Something of actual substance. I'll definitely
check those out with great interest.

I was hoping that when you said "trusting the research", you weren't
referring to the 'research' that 'Tog' vaguely alluded to in that opinion-
piece article of his which was linked to earlier in this thread.


Cheers

[9fans] Mousing muscle memory (was: Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it)

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:23:56 -0700
David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:

> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
>
> Dave

Has anyone read the last few posts on this YC thread? Specifically the ones on game playing. The particular point which interested me was that game players can get so fast they must have developed muscle memory for mouse operations. I reflected on when I used to build a lot in Second Life, back when it had the "pie menu" - a circular menu with eight pie-shaped segments. I didn't need to look at that menu to know which segment I was selecting. It would just be a flicker in the corner of my screen as I opened it and selected the option I wanted in one barely-thought-about action, even through multiple levels of the menu. "Take Copy" (for instance) involved a right-click, the bottom segment for "More..." and then the top segment for "Take Copy" itself. All that became one action, the details completely instinctual. The audio feedback may have helped; it certainly told you by it's absence if you accidentally clicked on the sky instead of the object you were working on, but I'm di
 gressing.

I'm quite certain you can develop muscle memory for mouse actions in some situations. I'm very interested in determining exactly what situations and how to apply it in a more serious context. Chording can become instinctual if your fingers are up to the task but remembering that pie menu from Second Life, I wonder if such a thing would be just as efficient for text.

I find Rio's menus inefficient as they are, and I'm wondering why. One point is that the menus appear with the last chosen item selected, which means the pointer is not in a consistent position relative to the menu when it is opened. (I generally don't remember what my last menu operation was.) Another may be that the vertical stack of relatively narrow lines is just unsuitable for developing muscle memory; this certainly applies to me. I think direction is probably a more valuable property than distance when trying to develop muscle memory. SL's pie menu had relatively narrow but deep segments; the direction mattered much more than the distance, and that seemed just right to me.

Acme is a curious case. I think it's safe to say starting with the pointer in a consistent position relative to the interface is essential to building mouse muscle memory. Second Life always opened the pie menu with the pointer in the center. If the pointer was too near the edge of the window it was moved to the center of the opened menu. I've no doubt consistency is achieved in other games, albeit in different ways. In the worst case the player can leave the pointer on a particular icon. I've noticed I move the pointer to a fairly consistent 'rest spot' even in Second Life. Acme warps the pointer around in a way that fits with this idea up to a point, but then it spoils it by placing Del and Put somewhat inconsistently. It's not all bad, but I have to use my eyes for Put almost every single time.

Re: [9fans] Mousing muscle memory (was: Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it)

[hiro]

I think muscle memory can deduct mouse acceleration. Linear mappings
to the screen would be easier to learn, but too slow when you need to
move over larger distances.

Re: [9fans] Mousing muscle memory (was: Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it)

[EBo]

 On Mon, 4 Jul 2011 18:30:25 +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:
>
> I'm quite certain you can develop muscle memory for mouse actions in
> some situations. I'm very interested in determining exactly what
> situations and how to apply it in a more serious context. Chording
> can
> become instinctual if your fingers are up to the task but remembering
> that pie menu from Second Life, I wonder if such a thing would be
> just
> as efficient for text.

 I've made a game out of guessing where predefined web pages pop up in
 my browsers startup and seeing how close to the 'g' on the login button
 I can get before it pops up.  I also prefer to have acceleration set low
 and speed set high, where I can move completely across the screen
 without having to pick my hand up to reach the 4 corners (ie all motion
 in the wrist and fingers)

> I find Rio's menus inefficient as they are, and I'm wondering why.
> One point is that the menus appear with the last chosen item
> selected,
> which means the pointer is not in a consistent position relative to
> the menu when it is opened.

 I find that annoying too.  I also find it a complete show stopper that
 several of the commands are almost opposite of the settings I have been
 using on Linux for the past 15 years, and Solaris, SunOS, AIX, and
 Ultrix before that.  It would be easy to change X's mouse definitions,
 but I'm still asking myself if I *really* want to retrain myself to
 follow Rio et al's conventions.

 Is there some way to configure all these settings?  I have not found
 them yet.

   EBo --

Re: [9fans] Mousing muscle memory (was: Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it)

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2011 20:05:18 +0000
hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I think muscle memory can deduct mouse acceleration. Linear mappings
> to the screen would be easier to learn, but too slow when you need to
> move over larger distances.

I think it can too, I've not found acceleration any hindrance at all. Some acceleration settings just don't feel right, but all the experience in my previous post was with acceleration on. Perhaps a linear mapping would help with menus which require linear movement, but I think overall it would be a net loss as you couldn't get longer-distance actions into anything like muscle memory. Acme would become a big problem then.