From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 20:02:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: L N To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300fb5058d7f7a04aed264c8 Subject: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34b2d73e-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --20cf300fb5058d7f7a04aed264c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? - Leonard --20cf300fb5058d7f7a04aed264c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl?
<= br>=A0- Leonard


--20cf300fb5058d7f7a04aed264c8-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 22:31:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p From: Russ Cox To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34b924ea-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L N wrote: > Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. Russ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 23:20:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: L N To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3003c39eb0d62604aed528f0 Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34c06796-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --20cf3003c39eb0d62604aed528f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Russ Cox wrote: > I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) > I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. > > Russ > Sure, tcl isn't as popular as Go right now. Still, tcl is appealing in some ways. http://www.tcl.tk/doc/scripting.html Was wondering if Go could be summarized as Plan 9 in language-space. (Ready... aim... fire) It seems like Plan 9 already "got it right" in the systems realm. (Arguments against Ousterhout's dichotomy, fire away) Seems like Plan 9 and tcl/tk would complement each other well. Also, this is somewhat unrelated, but I was wondering whether each Go executable contains the garbage collector. (It must, it seems, but just checking). - Leonard --20cf3003c39eb0d62604aed528f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. =A0:-)<= br>
I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go.

Russ

Sure, tcl isn't as popular as Go right no= w.

Still, tcl is appealing in some ways.

http://www.tcl.tk/doc/scripting.html

Was wondering if Go could be summarized as Plan 9 in language-space.
(Ready... aim... fire)

It seems like Plan 9 already "got i= t right" in the systems realm.

(Arguments against Ousterhout= 9;s dichotomy, fire away)

Seems like Plan 9 and tcl/tk would complement each other well.

A= lso, this is somewhat unrelated, but I was wondering whether each Go execut= able contains the garbage collector.=A0 (It must, it seems, but just checki= ng).

=A0- Leonard






--20cf3003c39eb0d62604aed528f0-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: Venkatesh Srinivas Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 23:30:02 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34c699ae-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Hi, > Also, this is somewhat unrelated, but I was wondering whether each Go > executable contains the garbage collector.=C2=A0 (It must, it seems, but = just > checking). It does. -- vs From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 22:21:41 -0700 Message-ID: From: ron minnich To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34cfb6ce-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Well, I did 9p clients for testing 15 years ago. It might have been the right thing then; I was even making nfs clients in tcl back then. Would I do it again? No ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 08:15:09 +0200 Message-ID: From: pmarin To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34d70d98-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 In 15 years Tcl has been improved a lot, like any other language. On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 7:21 AM, ron minnich wrote: > Well, I did 9p clients for testing 15 years ago. It might have been > the right thing then; I was even making nfs clients in tcl back then. > > Would I do it again? > > No > > ron > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 09:12:25 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: <7181f649ff38e68cc8bcabb1fa40df94@chula.quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34e3812c-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Sun Oct 9 02:16:11 EDT 2011, pmarin.mail@gmail.com wrote: > In 15 years Tcl has been improved a lot, like any other language. that might not be relevant to ron's point. i think this is almost a geometry problem. if you plot languages in 1997 and late 2011 on the "goodness line", it should follow that improving isn't enough to have a sufficiently large "goodness factor". the language in question has to be improving fast enough relative to the competition to be in the top bunch (largest x). if you only plot languages similar to tcl on this line, i think you get the same result. in tcl's case, the segment between starting point and today would seem to need to be prohibitively long. (although python made the minimum segment length much shorter by making python 3 incompatable with 2.) - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7181f649ff38e68cc8bcabb1fa40df94@chula.quanstro.net> References: <7181f649ff38e68cc8bcabb1fa40df94@chula.quanstro.net> Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 19:24:43 +0200 Message-ID: From: simon softnet To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34ed1b4c-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 wut On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 3:12 PM, erik quanstrom wrot= e: > On Sun Oct =A09 02:16:11 EDT 2011, pmarin.mail@gmail.com wrote: >> In 15 years Tcl has been improved a lot, like any other =A0language. > > that might not be relevant to ron's point. =A0i think this is almost > a geometry problem. =A0if you plot languages in 1997 and late 2011 on the > "goodness line", it should follow that improving isn't enough to have > a sufficiently large "goodness factor". =A0the language in question has t= o > be improving fast enough relative to the competition to be in the top > bunch (largest x). =A0if you only plot languages similar to tcl on this l= ine, > i think you get the same result. > > in tcl's case, the segment between starting point and today would seem > to need to be prohibitively long. =A0(although python made the minimum > segment length much shorter by making python 3 incompatable with 2.) > > - erik > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <7181f649ff38e68cc8bcabb1fa40df94@chula.quanstro.net> Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 15:05:06 -0800 Message-ID: From: Nick LaForge To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34f99f84-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > wut http://movie.subtitlr.com/subtitle/show/94536#line121 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:05:18 +0000 From: Balwinder S Dheeman Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: , Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 35586c12-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 10/09/2011 08:04 AM, Russ Cox wrote: > On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L N wrote: >> Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? > > I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) > I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. IMHO, That Go or Go-language thingy seems to be an overkill to me for that matter; that's just an opinion and opinions may differ. The best portable and efficient intermediate level language is C and I hope it will remain a 'lingua franca' for computer programmers for years to come ;) -- Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 06:33:15 -0700 Message-ID: From: Paul Lalonde To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e65d195044844604aef1d5ee Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 35a82ed2-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --0016e65d195044844604aef1d5ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 C is a low level language, not intermediate. In the second decade of the 21st century is it too much to ask for garbage collection and type safety? Hmm. I'm probably just feeding a troll. Paul On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 2:05 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman < bsd.SANSPAM@anu.homelinux.net> wrote: > On 10/09/2011 08:04 AM, Russ Cox wrote: > >> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L N wrote: >> >>> Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? >>> >> >> I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) >> I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. >> > > IMHO, That Go or Go-language thingy seems to be an overkill to me for that > matter; that's just an opinion and opinions may differ. > > The best portable and efficient intermediate level language is C and I hope > it will remain a 'lingua franca' for computer programmers for years to come > ;) > > -- > Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman > (http://werc.homelinux.net/**contact/ > ) > > -- I'm migrating my email. plalonde@telus.net will soon be disconnected. Please use paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com from now on. --0016e65d195044844604aef1d5ee Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable C is a low level language, not intermediate.

In the seco= nd decade of the 21st century is it too much to ask for garbage collection = and type safety? =A0

Hmm. =A0I'm probably just= feeding a troll.

Paul

On Mon, Oct 10, = 2011 at 2:05 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman <bsd.SANSPAM@anu.homelinux.net> wrote:
On 10/09/2011 08:04 AM, Russ Cox wrote:
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L N<leonardnemoi@gmail.com> =A0wrote:
Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl?

I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. =A0:-)
I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go.

IMHO, That Go or Go-language thingy seems to be an overkill to me for that = matter; that's just an opinion and opinions may differ.

The best portable and efficient intermediate level language is C and I hope= it will remain a 'lingua franca' for computer programmers for year= s to come ;)

--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman
(http://we= rc.homelinux.net/contact/)




--
= I'm migrating my email. =A0plalonde@telus.net will soon be disconnected. =A0Please use= paul.a.lalon= de@gmail.com from now on.


--0016e65d195044844604aef1d5ee-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:51:33 +0200 Message-ID: From: simon softnet To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 35b20a7e-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 It's not necessary that you're feeding a troll, in my opinion. I actually agree with the idea that C is enough. I don't understand why you need garbage collection ... why do you need to have garbage in the first place? Just because time goes by does not mean everything should keep on changing you know. People have to understand that certain technologies can just stay as they are, if they work well. Simon On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Paul Lalonde wr= ote: > C is a low level language, not intermediate. > In the second decade of the 21st century is it too much to ask for garbag= e > collection and type safety? > Hmm. =A0I'm probably just feeding a troll. > Paul > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 2:05 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman > wrote: >> >> On 10/09/2011 08:04 AM, Russ Cox wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L N =A0wrote: >>>> >>>> Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? >>> >>> I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. =A0:-) >>> I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. >> >> IMHO, That Go or Go-language thingy seems to be an overkill to me for th= at >> matter; that's just an opinion and opinions may differ. >> >> The best portable and efficient intermediate level language is C and I >> hope it will remain a 'lingua franca' for computer programmers for years= to >> come ;) >> >> -- >> Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman >> (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/) >> > > > > -- > I'm migrating my email. =A0plalonde@telus.net will soon be disconnected. > =A0Please use paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com from now on. > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wes Kussmaul To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:57:49 -0400 Message-ID: <1318265869.1790.332.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 35c4231c-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 I wrote my first significant software project in 1971 in IBM 1620 assembly language. When I got done, I felt I was equipped to develop anything. In my subsequent job in a COBOL shop I became the house curmudgeon, sure that the language just got in the way. But looking back, there is no way we could have accomplished what we did in assembler. It's not that we're not all Von Neumanns, it's that if you want to accomplish bigger and bigger things you have to rely upon inefficient, inexpert automation to assume the burden of detail. Same way with people: you have to delegate, even though you know you can do it 5x better and faster than the people you delegate to. And look at it this way: delegation helps the economy by employing people and selling processors and memory :-) Wes Kussmaul On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 15:51 +0200, simon softnet wrote: > It's not necessary that you're feeding a troll, in my opinion. > I actually agree with the idea that C is enough. > I don't understand why you need garbage collection ... why do you need > to have garbage in the first place? > Just because time goes by does not mean everything should keep on > changing you know. > People have to understand that certain technologies can just stay as > they are, if they work well. > > Simon > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Paul Lalonde wrote: > > C is a low level language, not intermediate. > > In the second decade of the 21st century is it too much to ask for garbage > > collection and type safety? > > Hmm. I'm probably just feeding a troll. > > Paul > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 2:05 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman > > wrote: > >> > >> On 10/09/2011 08:04 AM, Russ Cox wrote: > >>> > >>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L N wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? > >>> > >>> I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) > >>> I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. > >> > >> IMHO, That Go or Go-language thingy seems to be an overkill to me for that > >> matter; that's just an opinion and opinions may differ. > >> > >> The best portable and efficient intermediate level language is C and I > >> hope it will remain a 'lingua franca' for computer programmers for years to > >> come ;) > >> > >> -- > >> Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman > >> (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/) > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > I'm migrating my email. plalonde@telus.net will soon be disconnected. > > Please use paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com from now on. > > > > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:55:06 +1300 Message-ID: From: Winston Kodogo To: 9fans@9fans.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 35d000c4-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Speaking as someone who is too old and senile and stupid even to become a High Court Judge, I find the lack of "improvements" to Tcl to be a major attraction. I don=92t need to program in it that often =96 I maintain one moderately-sized script which hardly ever changes - but when I need to re-visit it, I find that I can pick it up again easily, unlike whatever moving-target language the cool kids are using this week. It also doesn=92t hurt that Ousterhout=92s book is a model of clarity. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 17:16:44 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 35d5bb22-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Mon Oct 10 09:52:36 EDT 2011, ph.softnet@gmail.com wrote: > It's not necessary that you're feeding a troll, in my opinion. > I actually agree with the idea that C is enough. > I don't understand why you need garbage collection ... why do you need > to have garbage in the first place? > Just because time goes by does not mean everything should keep on > changing you know. > People have to understand that certain technologies can just stay as > they are, if they work well. "need" is such a funny word. we don't need keyboards, we can just use toggles. there have been a few other trivial improvments in the day-to-day lives of programmers like bitmap displays, which real computer scientists can ignore. so as time goes on, it's easy for programmers to get a whiggish view of the world. but you're equally correct, that the mere passage of time between x and y is not an argument that either is better. so we're left only to argue this one on the merits of garbage collection. :-) now that i think of it, garbage collection was invented more than a decade before c. so the preceeding two paragraphs have been argued in the moot court. in any event, i think one can consider manual memory management to often be akin to manually managing registerization. there is a good chance that in most cases that an automatic and systematic process can do a better job than an ad hoc one. yet, i program in c most of the time. i don't know of many operating systems written in a automaticly gc'd language. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1318265869.1790.332.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> References: <1318265869.1790.332.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:50:51 +0200 Message-ID: From: hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3669448c-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > And look at it this way: delegation helps the economy by employing > people and selling processors and memory :-) I hope this is sarcasm? From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <1318265869.1790.332.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 04:34:01 -0400 Message-ID: From: L N To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 367b8aac-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > And look at it this way: delegation helps the economy by employing > people and selling processors and memory :-) http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2011/7/109885-the-case-for-ramcloud/fulltext From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:45:28 +0000 From: Balwinder S Dheeman Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: , Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3b19a6ac-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 10/10/2011 07:05 PM, Paul Lalonde wrote: > C is a low level language, not intermediate. > > In the second decade of the 21st century is it too much to ask for > garbage collection and type safety? "Go was born out of *frustration* with existing languages and environments for systems programming." -- Go-lang FAQ Seems, the creators of this language did not bother to check this http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html or may be the said check-list was not avail at that time ;) > Hmm. I'm probably just feeding a troll. Ahm, do check with your doctor; FYI, I'm not hiding behind an anonymous ID :P -- Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) From: Axel Belinfante In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:46:21 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <5AFE8D00-07DC-4DB5-924D-F69EB2D20CAA@cs.utwente.nl> References: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3b3d9e2c-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 since most of the follow-up discussion went sideways: > Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? at some point in time it seemed to be http://wiki.tcl.tk/15632 (but I seriously do hope you already found that) Axel - nowadays also enjoying go