Re: [9fans] new compilers

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

We just came back from percom, where we
gave a couple of talks about Plan B and Omero.
Perhaps surprisingly, the main problem for
people to understand what we did was not a
particular point in Plan B, but the main Plan 9 idea.

When you say "everything is a file", they get scared.
When you convince them that those "files" are not
files on disk, and that you exchange data using the fs
interface, then their main argument is:

	It's so simple that this probably does not work.

Simplicity seems to be hard to grasp. And also, most
people IMHO really forgot unix and what interfaces are
about.

Type checking was also a concern. I think they did not
understand that a data type (or xml tree) is not a guarantee
to have the system know about "semantics". They got
even more scared when I replied that the system should
best not be involved in semantics (which is up to the user).

So, sic.

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> Type checking was also a concern. I think they did not
> understand that a data type (or xml tree) is not a guarantee
> to have the system know about "semantics". They got
> even more scared when I replied that the system should
> best not be involved in semantics (which is up to the user).

UBF can have "contracts" that are verifiable.

i agree about the semantics.  i am still not sure why the network
machinary in the middle would need to know what "volume 50" means if
only the requestor shell script and the noisemaker server need to
understand it's meaning.

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> Type checking was also a concern. I think they did not
> understand that a data type (or xml tree) is not a guarantee
> to have the system know about "semantics". They got
> even more scared when I replied that the system should
> best not be involved in semantics (which is up to the user).

UBF can have "contracts" that are verifiable.

i agree about the semantics.  i am still not sure why the network
machinery in the middle would need to know what "volume 50" means if
only the requester shell script and the noisemaker server need to
understand it's meaning.

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Charles Forsyth]

> Type checking was also a concern. I think they did not
> understand that a data type (or xml tree) is not a guarantee
> to have the system know about "semantics". They got
> even more scared when I replied that the system should
> best not be involved in semantics (which is up to the user).

i have heard that before.  it's worth noting (just for the sake of it,
not because anyone necessarily takes it in) that the system has got
certain conventions.  for instance, networks are in /net and their name spaces
must adhere to some network-independent conventions, both in terms
of names they present, and how those names behave with open/read/write.

furthermore, control requests are checked by write and return an error if they are invalid.
(that by the way is something they often don't realise unless you point it out.)
this is not much different in practice from python (say) checking types of things
at run-time.  or javascript (and AJAX is all the rage, and note that the X in that is optional).
actually, it is different, because in my experience run-time errors
in python programs are not uncommon, but i never see /proc inadvertently confused with /net.
it is easy to use the wrong instance of something (eg, an inside /net not the outside one)
but then they would have the same type.

if you have the need, you can put a contract-enforcing name
space in the way of another name space.  as a simple example, a few
lines of code, easily validated, will enforce read-only access to the contents of any
name space.  that is quite hard to do with web services in general.

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Charles Forsyth]

> When you say "everything is a file", they get scared.

why is that?  were they bitten by one as a child?
what's the greek name for that fear?

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> When you say "everything is a file", they get scared.
>
> why is that?  were they bitten by one as a child?
> what's the greek name for that fear?

i don't know, but our condition might be fileophilia

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> what's the greek name for that fear?
>
> i don't know, but our condition might be fileophilia

actually, wouldn't it be fileophobia?

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Bruce Ellis]

dumb-ass (checking greek dictionary).

brucee

On 3/31/06, Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:
> >> what's the greek name for that fear?
> >
> > i don't know, but our condition might be fileophilia
>
> actually, wouldn't it be fileophobia?
>
>

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Charles Forsyth]

> actually, wouldn't it be fileophobia?

i imagined by analogy with xenophobia, etc that one would use a greek term for file
but my greek grammar is older than computers.

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> actually, wouldn't it be fileophobia?
>
> i imagined by analogy with xenophobia, etc that one would use a greek term for file
> but my greek grammar is older than computers.

mine is nonexistent; Q.E.D

[9fans] Re: new compilers

[Nikita Danilov]

Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> writes:

>> actually, wouldn't it be fileophobia?
>
> i imagined by analogy with xenophobia, etc that one would use a greek term for file
> but my greek grammar is older than computers.

I think this one would do: http://www.perseus.org/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2392476

(Word used already by Aristotle. :-))

Giving rhinephilia.

Nikita.

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[David Leimbach]

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On 3/31/06, Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:
>
> >> what's the greek name for that fear?
> >
> > i don't know, but our condition might be fileophilia
>
> actually, wouldn't it be fileophobia?
>
>
And one who is a fan of phobias is a phobiaphile ?

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Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Bruce Ellis]

dose that make you a phobiaphilaphile?

brucee

On 4/1/06, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 3/31/06, Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:
> > >> what's the greek name for that fear?
> > >
> > > i don't know, but our condition might be fileophilia
> >
> > actually, wouldn't it be fileophobia?
> >
> >
>
> And one who is a fan of phobias is a phobiaphile ?
>

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Taj Khattra]

> Simplicity seems to be hard to grasp.

deja vu.  as a wise man once said:

    "Unix is simple. It just takes a genius to understand its simplicity."

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Ronald G Minnich]

Fco. J. Ballesteros wrote:

> When you say "everything is a file", they get scared.

yes, indeedy. "everything is a file" is a really, really bad thing to
say, I've found.


> 	It's so simple that this probably does not work.

go figure. I get that too.

>
> Simplicity seems to be hard to grasp. And also, most
> people IMHO really forgot unix and what interfaces are
> about.


what a world, what a world.

ron

Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Paul Lalonde]

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Everything has a file-like interface; the interface is served over a
network routing protocol that makes remote interfaces look just like
local interfaces.

I've had reasonable success that way.

Paul

On 3-Apr-06, at 9:21 AM, Ronald G Minnich wrote:

> Fco. J. Ballesteros wrote:
>
>> When you say "everything is a file", they get scared.
>
> yes, indeedy. "everything is a file" is a really, really bad thing
> to say, I've found.
>
>
>> 	It's so simple that this probably does not work.
>
> go figure. I get that too.
>
>> Simplicity seems to be hard to grasp. And also, most
>> people IMHO really forgot unix and what interfaces are
>> about.
>
>
> what a world, what a world.
>
> ron

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Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Artem Letko]

i'd drop "routing", though.

-art

On 4/3/06, Paul Lalonde <plalonde@telus.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Everything has a file-like interface; the interface is served over a
> network routing protocol that makes remote interfaces look just like
> local interfaces.
>
> I've had reasonable success that way.
>
> Paul
>
> On 3-Apr-06, at 9:21 AM, Ronald G Minnich wrote:
>
> > Fco. J. Ballesteros wrote:
> >
> >> When you say "everything is a file", they get scared.
> >
> > yes, indeedy. "everything is a file" is a really, really bad thing
> > to say, I've found.
> >
> >
> >>      It's so simple that this probably does not work.
> >
> > go figure. I get that too.
> >
> >> Simplicity seems to be hard to grasp. And also, most
> >> people IMHO really forgot unix and what interfaces are
> >> about.
> >
> >
> > what a world, what a world.
> >
> > ron
>
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Re: [9fans] new compilers

[Paul Lalonde]

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Yes, I would drop "routing".  Somehow my mind-brain duality flubbed
there.

Paul

On 3-Apr-06, at 12:01 PM, Artem Letko wrote:

> i'd drop "routing", though.
>
> -art
>
> On 4/3/06, Paul Lalonde <plalonde@telus.net> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Everything has a file-like interface; the interface is served over a
>> network routing protocol that makes remote interfaces look just like
>> local interfaces.
>>
>> I've had reasonable success that way.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On 3-Apr-06, at 9:21 AM, Ronald G Minnich wrote:
>>
>>> Fco. J. Ballesteros wrote:
>>>
>>>> When you say "everything is a file", they get scared.
>>>
>>> yes, indeedy. "everything is a file" is a really, really bad thing
>>> to say, I've found.
>>>
>>>
>>>>      It's so simple that this probably does not work.
>>>
>>> go figure. I get that too.
>>>
>>>> Simplicity seems to be hard to grasp. And also, most
>>>> people IMHO really forgot unix and what interfaces are
>>>> about.
>>>
>>>
>>> what a world, what a world.
>>>
>>> ron
>>
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>>

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