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From: Jacob Moody <moody@posixcafe.org>
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X-Bullshit: ActivityPub self-signing-aware app self-signing-aware layer 
Subject: Re: [9front] Enabling a service
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I want to say from the getgo that sl's mail here is quite well said.
I would just like to echo some sentiments made here.

On 5/7/24 19:35, sl@stanleylieber.com wrote:
>> And yet, the FQA recommends laptops.
> 
> the fqa lists hardware that is known to work.  most users who start
> out with hardware that doesn't work never get to the stage of
> complaining about what the installer does and doesn't do.  i keep
> track of the stuff i've used, and share that information, just in case
> someone else stumbles across the same machines.
> 
> if you'd prefer to get a taste of the pre- fqa3 plan 9 experience, you
> can buy a random laptop manufactured in 2024 and report back on its
> status, re: booting and running 9front.  if you do that, i'll add the
> information to the hardware inventory linked in fqa3.
> 
> if instead you'd prefer the pre- 9front experience, you can keep this
> information all to yourself and nobody will ever know what you
> accomplished.  for the highest level of fidelity to the pre- 9front
> experience, you could opt to brag vaguely about all the cool stuff you
> got working on your computer, but never, ever make details or source
> code available to the general public.  bonus if you lord any of this
> over the newbs who are even newer to plan 9 than you are, assuring
> them that, yes, all these wonderful things you're claiming you did are
> trivial to accomplish in plan 9.
> 
> laptops are useful beyond the obvious use case because of they come
> with built-in battery power.
> 
> 
>> Usually the assumption with a
>> laptop is you can take it on the subway or to the coffee shop and keep
>> working.
> 
> you'd think so, right?  but if you read through the 9fans archives,
> labs people basically blew off laptop problems as being irrelevant to
> plan 9.  the system as designed never accounted for most the things
> people today want to do with laptops, and not only because the system
> assumes fast access to the disk file server.
> 
> here are some other unsolved, laptop-specific problems you'll encounter:
> 
> - how do i sleep and resume?	(we don't do state)
> - how do i lock my screen?	(this exists, but relies on the network, lol)
> 
> 
>> That implies that you want to have some relevant files with
>> you.  (So it’s good the default install has a local filesystem.) Then
>> later you get back to the home/office and maybe want to use a machine
>> with a bigger monitor and more files available, but some work in
>> progress is on the laptop so maybe you want to rcpu to it for a while.
>> Eventually files get synced up again (manually or automatically).
>> Maybe at home there is a file server, sure it’s good to have the
>> dumps.  That’s probably how I’d use it as soon as I get to the point
>> of depending on Plan 9 for any particular task, not just trying
>> things.  (It reminds me of learning how to use Linux, 30 years ago.
>> It was at a similar level of development back then.)
> 
> it's funny because all of this started with rob's experiments with
> graphical terminals.  the terminal itself ran a small, custom
> operating system that would be downloaded from the server at the start
> of a session.  the user would do operations on data in local memory,
> periodically syncing with the remote file server over the network.
> there is a remnant of this design in how the sam editor's gui operates
> on files.
> 
> and of course, plan 9 itself.
> 
> for many years i ran diskless terminals at home over wired ethernet
> and wifi.  it was great because my environment was always the same, my
> files were always exactly where i left them, and when i was finished i
> could just power off the machine without worrying about unclean
> shutdowns.
> 
> some people say, we have drawterm, best of both worlds!  but drawterm
> also sucks when there's latency.  moody may run doom in drawterm over
> local ethernet, but that's not happening over the internet.

I am delighted that my bragging about playing doom 2 over drawterm
has become an inside joke but I must kindly petition that this be
upgraded to my playthrough of cavestory in nearly 1440p that I did
over drawterm.

> 
> today, i'm almost always remote, in different places at different
> times.  my network is a wifi access point provided by my mobile phone.
> over many years i've tried lots of different ways of running plan 9
> with this setup, from tls booting over the internet, to
> drawterm<->9front running in a local qemu on openbsd, etc., etc.  what
> i typically do now is boot my laptop from a local disk (so, local
> binaries), but all my critical work files live on the remove disk file
> server i physically operate at home.  sometimes this is painfully
> slow, so i'll work on files on the local disk and then sync them up.
> i never, ever, need to rcpu into my terminal.  i just do whatever
> syncing is necessary before i turn it off.  if i need a modern web
> browser, i connect to openbsd over ssh/vnc (which is also sometimes
> painfully slow).  this is far from ideal but works better than the
> other combinations i've tried so far.
> 
> pick this apart, but this is me telling you what worked and didn't
> work for me, and i'm happy to answer questions in detail.

I want to expand this with some of my experiences. I tend to run a
filesystem on the laptop and just sync file between the FS at home
and the laptop at regular intervals (typically before I travel) but
I am home more times than not so my experience is a bit different.
I tend to keep any code of interest checked in to shithub, that way
its impossible to be caught without access to what I need. I sync the
.git and go about my day.

> 
> 
>> trying to preserve the labs experience
> 
> personally, i don't care at all about preserving the labs experience.
> we already dumped fossil, made tons of changes.  but before you start
> proposing all sorts of changes to the system it's important to
> understand exactly what you're changing.  plan 9 was not designed by
> idiots, or by accident.  everything that went in is the way it is for
> a reason.  you may disagree with the reason, but it's important to
> understand that reason before blowing it off.  and yes, people
> involved with 9front will challenge you on every little detail,
> because the details are important, and that's why we're all here.
> 
> this isn't linux.

Laptops are generally outside of the purview of what the labs intended,
computing has gone in interesting directions. However this is not much of
hurdle really, people lug around operating systems that would really prefer
to think of themselves as giant computers running in a dedicated room
servicing a dozen teletypes. Linux has put a lot of makeup on this pig,
but you can not change its core design principles. Linux folks make do
with little hacks here and there to improve the experience, you can likewise
find whatever fits your fancy for how you'd like to reconcile the world of
modern computing on to a 9front system. We've gained a fair bit of modern
conveniences (git), the world is your oyster.

In general though sl here is right, before we ship something with the system
we will want to make sure things make sense. We don't shove things in just because
they can be or because someone has expectations that are not met.


Thanks,
moody