From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.5 required=5.0 tests=BULK_RE_SUSP_NTLD, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24,DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD, PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 30764 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2021 08:25:12 -0000 Received: from 1ess.inri.net (216.126.196.35) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Aug 2021 08:25:12 -0000 Received: from out1.migadu.com ([91.121.223.63]) by 1ess; Mon Aug 16 13:14:21 -0400 2021 Message-ID: <113AEAFA774352910542C24858716996@qak> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=a-b.xyz; s=key1; t=1629132004; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to; bh=eivu2+wylcsJdiX8CuVZSGxKcrqrP8+X4WS8wKyM35Q=; b=Cof9QVpXXKipbmDSa8mJhOtk7qeDly2psdeq3vjb5jTiHAAUjmH9/ugFblxM/mIonQFdsn +vSgYKER87yHEgVGvN+AmylsYn6fzsDVNRMsCYHqpEXjG/et8wripP3XdCYJmP6QVQ0oAh YhU7nHBXnyvRJyvVWAE+mWajn6F/7YQlELuL/7gHUpfTE34dk5C6ZmpAZwfFO5yl4HIkyY wQzWLXuCk2w5AE6AoYbFYSURIziH3tUdh631+mmObOIlInavxxyVW16CWKII/u2GDcoQVM hN7umeviiJCGhY3jdYtakz83VJG/OUTBjB5pbDCD6H1WJsVdY5MWB8+9eoqhQQ== To: 9front@9front.org Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 18:40:02 +0200 X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. From: kvik@a-b.xyz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-Migadu-Auth-User: kvik@a-b.xyz Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: basic framework information generator Subject: Re: [9front] PATCH: click-to-focus in fgui Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk Quoth khm : > It's also somewhat of a pattern in this community to get into an > argument with hiro (or me) and assume he speaks for everyone, then get > mad at "#cat-v" despite the fact that some of the people who commit to > 9front don't even participate there. Yes, that is a very common thing to happen. It is something that I try to explain to everyone in the wider community who happens to complain about "#cat-v" being mean and scary. Maybe I could've made it clearer that the complaint part is about hiro's method of dealing with people who lack the insider knowledge only available by studying endless #cat-v chat logs. What I appeared to demand is that an #cat-v states *their* assumptions sometimes, instead of simply demanding everyone instinctively understand how to approach 9front and discussions around its parts. (ACHTUNG: on-topic paragraph follows) An example pertaining to the thread at hand would be a set of UI design guidelines and goals listing that: text user interfaces are prefered whenever possible; widget-like things =C3=A1 la libcontrol are discouraged; click-to-focus is prefered; text input elements should try to implement similar set of interactions as found in sam or rio; themeing is a waste of everyone's time; you are free and encouraged to theme the living shit out of your system just don't expect people to be as thrilled about it; and so on. I don't think that's overly "philosophical" or useless or a stretch to ask for. And no, I'm not volunteering to write such a document simply because (1) I haven't wrote a single coherent GUI application in my life and (2) I don't enjoy Plan 9 UI nearly enough to bother encoding these rules myself. Quoth Stanley Lieber : > the solution is to write the document that=E2=80=99s missing and make i= t > available to the community. I didn't mean to imply the insufficiency of FQA and your work at all. The only thing I want is for people who have strong feelings about things to communicate about it effectively. That may take making contributions to FQA or the wiki for a more methodical approach, or just not being too much of an ass to people while trying to educate them in discussions. Here's my initial contribution about the topic I feel "strongly" about: http://wiki.9front.org/fqq Quoth hiro <23hiro@gmail.com>: > Kvik, with more documentation about our religion won't it become too > hard for the zealous batch of our new users to break those same strict > rules? No. Knowing the rules is a prerequisite for breaking or improving them in a reasonable manner. It helps everyone involved to know where we are and why. More so, I don't demand strict adherence to any rules that are stated. That'd be a shot in my foot if anything at all since I'm not nearly sold out on Plan 9 being a godly selection of great ideas and would like many things to be changed. > Looking from the other direction: Is there anybody who disagrees that > consistency is more important than which of the 2 options are > selected? I might have been quick to assume no. Yes, consistency is very important -- and is also a great rule to state clearly for anyone that might not have picked up on this instinctively by what they saw in Plan 9. You will have to admit that even though Plan 9 is better in that regard than many other systems it is not nearly where it could be. > You might claim there's a third choice, to use both. I pointed out > that this is inconsistent. Maybe you have a complex reason why it is > not? No, I'm all for consistent choice and approve of this change fully. With "trival and complex matters" I was talking about discussions ranging from rio's -b flag up to discussions about the details of 9p9999-ioagent or whatever. > I highly approve the urge of learning to be an idiot. The art of teaching by this method requires a lot of patience and understanding from both sides, something that you can't apply in general and expect great results. I personally learn the best when I'm attacked for my idiocy, it is something that I'm used to and that feels like a sensible repercussion for being an idiot. But I've not seen many other people take it the same way, while they *did* take a more civilized approach in a good way -- meaning they weren't the type of idiots who demand being served answers on a golden plate, they just don't hate themselves enough to feel that extra portion of suffering is a neccessary and acceptable part of their learning. I'd like if you and some others who are quick to attack would not assume the worst about people like that, or would at least help them avoid walking into a trap where they are bound to be pounced on. P.S. I'm exceedingly sorry for producing this wall of text.