From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <9front-bounces@9front.inri.net> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from 9front.inri.net (9front.inri.net [168.235.81.73]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD8BD260A4 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 16:29:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.4]) by 9front; Sun Jun 16 10:27:07 -0400 2024 Received: from cixi.localnet (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:bc7:f350:cf9c:9fd5:f3b0:3fae]) (Authenticated sender: tnemeth@free.fr) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 614BE19F5AF for <9front@9front.org>; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 16:27:05 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1718548025; bh=TIvzd8M7TlTuyK1CUx8A6ZmMcIOb7wJOu25Gw9tN5+Q=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=dSvzfR0cYc9qnFSRspFF+9kK49AtUEz9YPdct5jLEzKYXz3uDz8LO9XE6rl4ckN3b D4hSMv6JZJOmFr1IxqgyZzkTcyIhtI0yOUZSQQvytMJpbfvFxMyt1R58GobXD6tLZ1 7IJU07XLYkFDosy2VilMW87VwY6XPJoOYCYr9tvlFV4/rVOb339USKMjVO9+S4UVAs sjM8oNKWXmcT//GVVxqtTBXV56Dn41Cndg4Uoo2yZkaqj0sg8+pvQFNW4nJpoU5CGN n8v6qJtpRxxeFdznK5RdI8TFAA0NqDwJaXEpK0CcNL9tX5r7goZFyx9FuQ9dgghKHb 2j87ZBx7dTcaw== From: Thomas Nemeth To: 9front@9front.org Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2024 16:27:04 +0200 Message-ID: <1862574.atdPhlSkOF@cixi> Organization: =?UTF-8?B?ZMOpc29yZ2FuaXPDqWU=?= In-Reply-To: References: <1890322.tdWV9SEqCh@cixi> <4898776.GXAFRqVoOG@cixi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: anonymous abstract standard Subject: Re: [9front] Staying up-to-date Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk Le dimanche 16 juin 2024 15:03:30 CEST, vous avez =E9crit : > > It seems to be Plan9-fileserver oriented (obviously). >=20 > It's very easy. So easy that once you get it working you will want to > throw all but one of your hard drives out the window. Follow > https://fqa.9front.org/fqa6.html#6.7 That's what I was refering to ;) > I also wanted to say that when it comes to learning Plan 9 from a > Linux/*nix background you will find that Plan 9 will appear obtuse and > difficult. That is because you have only known obtuse and difficult so > you have come to expect it. Plan 9 is the opposite - so much so that > it appears alien to the beginner. Well... That's partially true. I've been developing and administering on several Unix system for a long time. Mainly *BSD, Solaris and Linux. Of course I'm very comfortable with them :) I began to look into Plan9 about 10 (maybe more) years ago. I'm very, deeply, interested in every OS (well, a little less for proprietary ones) and the design ideas behind Plan9 were (and still are) appealing. I've read a lot of documentation. A lot. I've been playing occasionally with plan9 since then. First in VMs, then as soon as I had the possibility, on real hardware. But, and it's still true now, it's only _playing_. Once these ideas are understood what you say may appear as alien do not anymore. What's disturbing is that the documentation is not up to the task (in my opinion of course) to teaching newcomers all the intricacies of Plan9, even with the "intro" for each man section. That's in line with what you said: > fs is the now deprecated classic on-disk file server for plan 9. The > two currently supported file systems on 9front are hjfs and cwfs. Indeed. But it's still what we get when we look for some documentation... Since youur mail I've been trying several things. Looking at how to add a new user, a thing I had done some years ago, but didn't had the time until now, I understood how to communicate with the filesystem and send commands. But some that were in the man pages, could not be issued (the "users" command for example). And more importantly I understood that I absolutely cannot use "con -C /srv/hjfs.cmd". The command to leave the CLI is "CTRL-\ + q". But, on my (french) keyboard it means typing CTRL-ALTgr-\ + q". And CTRL-ALTgr-\ only prints \ and does nothing else so typing q+return afterward doesn't do as told... > There is a third, an amazing piece of work by Ori called gefs, which > is in testing right now. Read the man pages for those supported file > systems and you will see the relation to fs. Now I have another task :) Learn how to create such a filesystem and use it as the root filesystem ! > Plan 9 (the kernel) only speaks 9P. It doesn't understand on-disk file > systems such as hjfs or cwfs as that is the job of the disk file > servers cwfs(4) and hjfs(4) - programs which translate the on-disk fs > to 9P. This means you could in theory boot from ext, nfs, cifs, sshfs, > etc. I'm already convinced that the 9P is quite the feat ;) It's also used in hypervisors for VMs. > Plan 9 does not have mounts in the Unix sense as mounts and binds are > per namespace. Instead you use the ns(1) command which prints a list > of commands which represents the construction of the namespace that rc > process is running in. That namespace is inherited by children procs > which is why mounting/binding something in a new Rio window does not > effect other windows BUT performing that same mount before running Rio > does. See namespace lifting in the wiki for a global mount solution > and read about srv(3). That's also what we get with containers under Linux. But for Linux it had been bolted into the kernel afterward whereas it's native Plan9. I've followed the developement of the namespaces in Linux then I've been working with lxc and docker. I could not help but to think about Plan9 during these developments :) > > Even though I've been playing occasionally with Plan9 and then > > 9front for ~10y, I still don't feel confident enough for system > > administration. >=20 > Rome was not built in a day. Take your time and ask questions. Do not > mash keys or make assumptions. Have fun! \o/ That's the point : having fun :) But not only. Trying new things, stepping out of your comfort zone changes your way of thinking and makes you gain experiences. As I said previously, I like a lot of the ideas behind Plan9. The only thing I disagree with is... user interaction. I come from the "no GUI" era : I'm a keyboard man. But that won't stop me from trying to gain proficiency with Plan9 :) I still want to test and try a lot of stuff with it. On the free time my wife let me have ;) This includes: - Handling mails. Tried before. Very complex even for a guy that used to configure sendmail. - Raspi cluster configuration. I want to put my hands into what makes Plan9 so powerful. - Development. Customizing applications, etc. Sorry for my _long_ mail. I cannot stop talking about the stuff I love :) Thomas.