From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3370 invoked from network); 27 Sep 2023 03:06:52 -0000 Received: from 9front.inri.net (168.235.81.73) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Sep 2023 03:06:52 -0000 Received: from m42-5.mailgun.net ([69.72.42.5]) by 9front; Tue Sep 26 23:05:07 -0400 2023 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; v=1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mg.wilsonb.com; q=dns/txt; s=krs; t=1695783905; x=1695791105; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type: MIME-Version: Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: From: From: Subject: Subject: To: To: Date: Sender: Sender; bh=Wu94K/kzB0espToWr1n5Sszn0k3mZtuhBRrHZnIeWko=; b=LgoYU5BKgbP3ZTZ6f06iaxswU1WLl+fVFgBSAif8VOeuJWoVYonWMOXITOROBJ0q1jfqvQweXSO4P+GxW2BdBby2sLOgavYUVqE1qabNGUQ+hwEef99MxrbUdzM9L866wyvhlGVe2+iBnP90/0oyaIGIY1LfKjEw/wKe3snI4ZYUCr5RkMhUBl45wvqV921/jHb6kT6eqNjHCKypKMqEmIiAoeSRkO2sZAvLTskpH2iYordMoCgqMtq0WoZv695i+wGE5TpmyMBwAd+55ciaMJM0TuggCcXWNH6G9iyhbhIG5zAvHpFqMW+Rx4XukSf8KdQ2Hzu6QNtlB4XnG1UoaQ== X-Mailgun-Sending-Ip: 69.72.42.5 X-Mailgun-Sid: WyIyOGJkOSIsIjlmcm9udEA5ZnJvbnQub3JnIiwiMDg1NDdhIl0= Received: from wilsonb.com (wilsonb.com [104.199.203.42]) by cc2105870c83 with SMTP id 65139be19beb6038ff44dfad (version=TLS1.3, cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256); Wed, 27 Sep 2023 03:05:05 GMT Sender: ieliedonge=wilsonb.com@mg.wilsonb.com Received: from localhost (i114-182-69-148.s41.a007.ap.plala.or.jp [114.182.69.148]) by wilsonb.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1542EA0E36 for <9front@9front.org>; Wed, 27 Sep 2023 03:05:02 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=wilsonb.com; s=201703; t=1695783903; bh=Wu94K/kzB0espToWr1n5Sszn0k3mZtuhBRrHZnIeWko=; h=Date:To:Subject:From:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=vrMmez+B84+KawLpB0glIs626DnXuEJF7CezDlDIYI/eclbIwMQ5o6T8oCxeXFN9j xj/2Jycca4gLz0YmRJ8WoUbsHvfKfeAfslw/n71kDNp0U+04BdIaQla4eDmzrVSanN zCbynZV6tH/RoHuceoKfkgcuZEMd2Hervrrjq4uEks4/JK/6L32EjKmikJD6R5I3KL gCClzdt7/FKljta2mBooOjTEr2JvPirIWej5KYMwKxeZJBtwj87h1JMAo+0UmOJwgr CwfOrI0UbVBRGaBzETUcMMfyXsqzuHy6KFAqXIORqNauAYFXQUnGmgCx6duLyP9qZD Wx/7HUP31wh9SzPlv71PQLX/AVbbKE0RikrJs4H0/5Pvygt1IH9iYcuLpJt8S6/994 Ao0KRKumVM2o/uJNy4w5Dyu6fmlPlnK71SZ+8xEduUAgIxWSDssHCsBZjc5La2KPih PpvZ0P5037PwgVWi5S22Eu+FJpvPnF3jpdpoS4vTaHJYmH9WJ7kOmBMxqa6wOhPcXK ODn28mfVyJcHMWm7LyMgHoxatLK23uB5bMKM3WvyaKTcxT9G3UCcYMEOnHtIS9IL0A WALE/wSSTVC01qooGm4smWWVzaATwTxCv0OwiOz9OQ41nS91Pu1lm8UgEMi678WxGc 55kG0dBXvQwraYVmGsYAie+s= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 12:04:55 +0900 To: 9front@9front.org From: ieliedonge@wilsonb.com References: <2PMKK52L7NF1M.1Y7PJ3YC0KRRU@wilsonb.com> <6d32598d-792b-432a-ac9a-86fe98f8f32f@posixcafe.org> <3EGUDWACGKEBO.32U3AZ0SD3RKA@wilsonb.com> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <1ZUY76C09AGNR.28PUWH0X1XMBW@wilsonb.com> User-Agent: mblaze/1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: mobile stable hosting property ActivityPub pipelining engine Subject: Re: [9front] Questions about community dynamics Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk Kurt, Thank you for the thorough response. Point taken about there not being a si= ngle community and that devs just kind of loosely operate on the honor system ar= ound here. I'll take your hints and poke around in other communities as well to find s= ome comfy place. > I find computers in general discouraging. You sure do make up for it with encouraging feedback. Much appreciated. - B. Wilson Kurt H Maier wrote: > On Sun, Sep 24, 2023 at 09:02:39AM +0900, ieliedonge@wilsonb.com wrote: > > For example, some communities operate in a somewhat laissez faire manne= r, > > letting whatever happens happens. Other communities have explicit moder= ation. > > Others still have strong enough rapport that people just naturally get = led into > > cooperative, helpful communication over time. >=20 > 9front is far from one community. =20 >=20 > There's the irc channel #cat-v, which has its roots in contrarian idiocy > and people being mean to each other. In #cat-v, we ban people for > belligerent ignorance, help-vampirism, and bigotry. There are five=20 > people who can moderate that channel. Most of them write most of the=20 > code in 9front. The other one is me, a historical accident nobody's=20 > corrected yet. I expect to be first against the wall when the > revolution comes. >=20 > Then there's this mailing list. It's run by sl and I won't put words in > his mouth about how he chooses to run it. sl also runs the 9front.org > website. =20 >=20 > There's a 9front community on gridchat who prefer it as a chat medium to > the hellhole #cat-v. There's another one on discord. There are > probably others. Some of them run their own websites and knowledge > resources, like wiki.a-b.xyz. These communities are run by other people > according to their own priorities. =20 >=20 > Most people who use 9front dip a toe in many of these options and wind > up gravitating towards a couple of them. #cat-v and this mailing list > are the oldest, but that doesn't make them the correctest. That > decision is up to each user to make for themselves. They're all valid > communities worth participating in. >=20 > Getting your code in the tree just requires consent from anyone with > commit access to the repository. Ori and sl manage those resources. > Getting commit access yourself is just as easy; I'm not aware of anyone > who asked for it having been turned away. That doesn't mean it's > impossible, it just means the people who have asked have generally had > code to contribute. >=20 > > An element of the question is me wondering what 9front's values are. I = see a > > problem with the habits of some on this mailing list but maybe that's j= ust my > > uncalibrated view as an outsider. >=20 > 9front is an operating system; it cannot have values. Each community of > 9front developers and users develops their own set of values. I can > only really speak for #cat-v, because it's the only one I have any > moderation powers in. I focus on banning hate speech advocates and > tire-kickers who make unreasonable demands on other people's time > without attempting to develop investigative skills of their own. Other > than that it's basically anarchy. >=20 > > It's probably obvious that I'm also thinking about the recent discussio= n around > > a sed patch. As an onlooker, I see a few people giving a thumbs up and = one > > loud, aggressive voice simply yelling that it's a worthless patch, with= out > > articulating anything helpful. As someone who'd like to eventually cont= ribute, > > that kind of thing is pretty discouraging. >=20 > I find computers in general discouraging. Learning when to ignore hiro > and when to listen to him is advanced black magic that can only come > from years of experience. It's the same way with unix. >=20 > > So my meaning of "facilitation" here is asking both whether such > > a sentiment is part of the 9front community and if so whether there is = any kind > > of mechanism to make things more welcoming. >=20 > As you can probably predict by now, this all depends on which 9front > community you're trying to participate in. In the short term, I > recommend not taking it personally when someone freaks out about a > patch. In the old days, pre-9front, the process was to submit a patch > and then get ignored for years. Arguably, the whining is an > improvement. If you don't want the peanut gallery, you can always email > some developers privately. >=20 > As for this particular patch, I'm ambivalent, but unix compatibility has > not in the past been a high priority, because plan 9 is not unix. Maybe > this patch belong's in ape's sed. I don't remember whether someone > investigated whether ape's sed has the same behavior as plan 9 sed? >=20 > Thanks for doing the work, whatever the results. >=20 > khm