From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 32526 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2021 19:10:25 -0000 Received: from 1ess.inri.net (216.126.196.35) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 14 Aug 2021 19:10:25 -0000 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]) by 1ess; Sat Aug 14 06:28:33 -0400 2021 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1628936901; bh=Dy/0aM9XBlklhcMVodR3uq0PqV1TZ7iXCwxT+g+zFeg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=CqNdfXV/cmqgNq5FhkJQ0P3CEM3z/DAhiLQcEE7DQFnBxXLld/KcgvQpLW7MkvGdq GgOvLcg2CMhdH1bBqxry9WEwb4KsDER2pTqI+4YvcGyNCzB3n9RTi6W0TJKd+TEwU0 dvqs5bSzlWEgYnImau6Ef5lzFJCMcaGeLIl4Z/LI= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from localhost ([178.19.230.110]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MfYPi-1mlgU00VL6-00fz9o for <9front@9front.org>; Sat, 14 Aug 2021 12:19:56 +0200 Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 12:20:14 +0200 From: Eckard Brauer To: 9front@9front.org Message-ID: <20210814122014.621634c6@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20210812163626.63c3fb64@gmx.de> <9D0282916FEB7AB4CCD565BEE2B5889C@smtp.pobox.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.8 (GTK+ 2.24.33; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Face: 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 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:aK2c2sMnZJ1zFxBbLJ+IgMgjMNs6zB8WieFguERwihim6C9j/uL CnO0es0Une6zayecWGSYSD5tuqJYLlSZOwsY1hRbwc8Ld7S7V889I6j6W7F8676yzU9LZCm PrdziEN5lVweEmNFlvguWsgoUsixWvKjDevA3OIkQKm952aqK867+hXEs1+wB+0a0JWwJM2 juGwsoGvt9x0Nf0+qjDVw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:qrnkuJjYcdk=:t7euIZ/TvMM0oVbhKtdD9v xl3FTEvLfeOJbfyBQ32fKdBVbq3s+WbXjRlPjQrDWmVkz6w8nqWGG2gbJqNtorqY8goLsWUqW ER+atOwG/u1HUEjKYISUmzS9tvA3qiBdaYOyQd1zUar6U/dxtvANcbkpXo7cAQ7E3yDSa4860 +RqOwMgxawg0HZUTAdxfn7BmnXdO2A7Pvbn1MPYCHzt3b3MzeuRKD7Czs6OHm5gcFbaKbe+jr yaAlFvyZ8eUkDJC+4RPHTgDexQ9+4BqD9aBFX628YWhSZyWytEfCrEOAOvHjAwp8Pkitu9xjY oSiTOneVZeKecTIY8P0//ZEGynWbw/oyUjdfQIRqVFbojZtdSC+wIU7oFDb/1+Qf5IJHRSkXK Z1xJb6yRwGVSqlIOEMuTne2Z1RMnd7TEGWHEPuVKRakFlFRaOxqQdqehXFy/HGsq9eBQyad26 eCtibL/I6N4Y5zz4AjIUBMOZgzohakC/F6MSNQz3uLdDxLcGZlpED9I5ttOUvzfCwok2z98vR n6slRflHAISePTWgtEToS01BMsBSO1Mr5ykfJUArzHLYHQ+6OSW++LE5ctBFLRoa13+GoaEgw ybV75TNEKz/9BhQoXY304iJ7fpXF1bvyUcLLojtM4Fvp74cqZrZPf8NmgAgvaay4NaJOlM3eC gpSu1DXH0lVCkEF1dzy4U0F6feOwvqaPZKr3Ia7MEahN7aRVyabBRm7eMG2//Gr8FMRNMBgMk pTD95UzoA5b7XePzTZTKVsWsHdhqFdafm8/lSDaCx8AUztdGB9RR/E/Vl3+IY+JuukNkMulnx Y/Is6+bKxxySf5jwnMvpHYz9sGryrNyCOLOPciR8MjFnZzxOXo9vZ+gO8oayltHg5D5iUB2K6 4pad2f51x2CEH7j9e8lQBeiSkliRKzg7AJFusT17M51p0Oz+0Rx5TeTO/cHZh6bMO6PUm5jRJ DoNoVQuBJb/aCDgonNL7MfAXirg8f+jpxKLWpOzKOOVncj1WpZBwTx2KBpcz1FclPYrhZdnuc 2IF1tAVrk/hzG1LGmhs42YgT4wf5NOxzGZvKr25SOeq0waUzNRLiCAfuakVtryq/ihwM0BNrW KLWWt4eCJo6iI13ftRga98HbDbRkUsuZNny0OxsydAj9RfSPvHYpkW6FQ== List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: firewall cache Subject: Re: [9front] PATCH: click-to-focus in fgui Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk Am Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:10:47 +0200 schrieb hiro <23hiro@gmail.com>: > of course it's possible! and who cares what's approved?! and we > definitely don't approve of #ifdefs, so what is this? some form of > trolling? So far you're free to treat that as whatever you want. As you seem to hate the discussion and maybe the participants of it, it's probably of much more value if you sit down and write a Plan9 bible with all se do's and dont's well ordered by precedence. That way you could have a better chance to avoid such discussions for the future and simply remind people to "read the fucking guide of dogmas". regarding the #ifdefs, I completely conform with the idea of mostly avoiding them. My suggestion was _never_ to introduce them, but to have different choice possible (see the typo, corrected here) "with patch or [..] #ifdefs", so either possibility could have been fine, and the default behaviour would be kept. > the tradition on plan9 is to have one single, consistent, sane default > whenever possible, so nope... making it user configurable goes against > everything we stand for. OK, but see above with documentation. If the topic is that dogmatically overloaded, it _needs_ to be documented in somewhere strictly before all user guides and the like. But, hey, why then does rio have a -b option or do patches for changing the color scheme exist? It's not standard anymore... or why does Plan 9 support keyboard layouts at all and doesn't enforce all keyboards of US type? OK, I see some of the differences, but you will always hit points where to decide to support something formerly unsupported and not covered by any explicit or implicit (single-brain?) standard. Simply think of networking hardware and see what was supported years before, what is now, and what probably will be some years later. That's btw my personal reason for not actually being able to switch to Plan 9 for my everyday OS, as I could well live with click-to-focus, if it were the only point. That's indeed not a matter of only user experience, but of hardware support, but why trying to support many new hardware, but not the users, when maybe a large enough group has different ideas of usability? That's a matter of flexibility too, and strictly enfocing the "one and only way" everywhere will maybe lead to the most efficient "one man's OS". Please come up with real arguments, not "it was everytime this way and not different, and so it has to remain". That's really shitty. Nobody can resist good reasons and explanations, and if there's a dogma left to _never_at_no_single_time_ support something, it has at least to be stated somewhere, well visible and clear for every single person. > if you want to experiment with shitty windowmanagers that get all > triggerhappy whenever you look at your mouse sideways there's a lot > out there for linux that you could try. please do this first (like > most other people have already done here) and feel the suffering > before you share more opinions. As already written, it's _not_ a matter of supporting all "shitty windowmanagers" or "but my Windoze has that" or such. As I'm currently unable to use Plan 9 as my everyday OS, I'm currently on Linux. I hate that and would be willing to switch, if some more things work. And I simply exposed an opinion of how I'm working most of the time. If that is enough to disqualify me from talking here, please send a note and drop me from that list, if not, tell arguments and get it documented at where that belongs. Up to now, I didn't find a strong counterargument against a different focus policy, but am still open to know that. =2D-