From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: by 10.236.108.44 with SMTP id p32cs34300yhg; Sun, 3 Apr 2011 18:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <9front+bncCMnN582LARD-t-TsBBoEaUDbgw@googlegroups.com> Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of 9front+bncCMnN582LARD-t-TsBBoEaUDbgw@googlegroups.com designates 10.229.251.136 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.229.251.136; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of 9front+bncCMnN582LARD-t-TsBBoEaUDbgw@googlegroups.com designates 10.229.251.136 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=9front+bncCMnN582LARD-t-TsBBoEaUDbgw@googlegroups.com; dkim=pass header.i=9front+bncCMnN582LARD-t-TsBBoEaUDbgw@googlegroups.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.229.251.136]) by 10.229.251.136 with SMTP id ms8mr3298593qcb.16.1301879806589 (num_hops = 1); Sun, 03 Apr 2011 18:16:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:x-sasl-enc :mime-version:message-id:to:from:subject:date:x-mailer :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-transfer-encoding:content-type; bh=TesX/ZEIBCzYQCizY9XNEx37hpHWI4xs+lzcrNdomvU=; b=pTCDjUS5hnTauzrbrUp+g16oiU6fxaUAPgaXvnPZ4cTYGK1mC6ughvEBN36gZxhVL2 /v6crwH1csZleIHOEsDM0uusuIFc6MAOmyCYlY3kOnLhUQq0SAFmkqjzNniFYCjpO089 lhR/vd7S1TALWvvJk38Av4/pM2fzTJwkyq5fw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-sasl-enc:mime-version:message-id:to:from :subject:date:x-mailer:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-transfer-encoding :content-type; b=c1J+nf7+8oF5i1PNS9Of6KdzDbEJGXAku8FtKygb/GrOPjbaBcewfl/XVtLFNJqbiM W/r/llnL0dKyV45cYFKzFZ88d2OzrM5pgsy/qxgRSZAWUSyD1qfXYEVB9B3d4DxFhfQE QaIK0F73yCAQ1d/xiqUeHUju8GzDRyllZEx9A= Received: by 10.229.251.136 with SMTP id ms8mr891102qcb.16.1301879806528; Sun, 03 Apr 2011 18:16:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: 9front@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.205.76 with SMTP id fp12ls1404995qcb.0.p; Sun, 03 Apr 2011 18:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.75.210 with SMTP id z18mr439801qcj.3.1301879806230; Sun, 03 Apr 2011 18:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.75.210 with SMTP id z18mr439800qcj.3.1301879806213; Sun, 03 Apr 2011 18:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3.smtp.messagingengine.com (out3.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o8si811876qcu.10.2011.04.03.18.16.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 03 Apr 2011 18:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eekee57@fastmail.fm designates 66.111.4.27 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.111.4.27; Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.43]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BD1D205C2 for <9front@googlegroups.com>; Sun, 3 Apr 2011 21:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 03 Apr 2011 21:16:44 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: bPXBVurE4y9xstYsx9ItohsAmKK3It9ld+X2TMRe3rQy 1301879804 Received: from [192.168.0.40] (cpc4-lanc4-0-0-cust280.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com [81.101.201.25]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2EDCC401C0C for <9front@googlegroups.com>; Sun, 3 Apr 2011 21:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Message-Id: <41D312FB-F15E-4DC5-8B8F-2EDEA44460A2@fastmail.fm> To: 9front@googlegroups.com From: Ethan Grammatikidis Subject: package manager? seriously? Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 02:16:43 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Original-Sender: eekee57@fastmail.fm X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eekee57@fastmail.fm designates 66.111.4.27 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eekee57@fastmail.fm; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com Reply-To: 9front@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list 9front@googlegroups.com; contact 9front+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: <9front.googlegroups.com> X-Google-Group-Id: 831096995978 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: 9front@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Ugh. I'm tired, I've been writing and doing stuff far too much this past week, and then people start bringing up "what's going to be 9front's package manager" as if it were some kind of fait accompli, and instantly talking about "how are we going to have the package manager deal with config files?" I think martian67 helped me organize my thoughts best when he said "packages enforce a certain structure on things." ... I don't if this will come across in text but what I really wanted to reply to that is "Oh! OH!! Ohhh yeeesss, let's ENFORCE STRUCTURE!!! STRUCTURE is GOOOOOOOD! Must have STRUCTURE!" Plan 9's design is extremely good at making structure work in good, useful, non-limiting ways. What's the system which makes the most use of package management today? Gnu/Linux. What's the one system which employs structure in the very worst way possible throughout? Gnu/Linux. Package managers are a big part of the disease. Dependency tracking helps create the longest and most brittle dependency chains. Config file management isn't management at all. Either you are managing the config files on your system or something else is, which way is it going to go? Another big argument is package managers somehow stop things making a mess all over your system. Er, no, they provide a way for people to patch random shit to fit an arbitrary structure... Is "random shit" even remotely relevant in the context of 9front? For fuck's sake how much bullshit are we going to pile on this OS anyway? Without, you know, making it fit the OS first? Good grief people, THINK already. Finally... "ohmigosh but the ONLY way you can possibly uninstall cleanly is with a package manager" argument, to which I will reply with two words: make uninstall. Plan 9 mkfiles already have all the files they install listed, it shouldn't be hard to put an uninstall target in the files every mkfile sources. This isn't random bullshit made to work with crappy implementations of make, this is something for which we can make an uninstall target work already. For those STILL in fucking lust with package managers, will you PLEASE stop thinking of 9front as a suitable platform for megalithic dinosaurian monstrosities?