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* [9front] removal of /lib/unicode
@ 2023-03-26  2:23 sl
  2023-03-26  2:33 ` [9front] " Anthony Martin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: sl @ 2023-03-26  2:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

there are still a lot of references in man pages to /lib/unicode.

sl

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26  2:23 [9front] removal of /lib/unicode sl
@ 2023-03-26  2:33 ` Anthony Martin
  2023-03-26  2:55   ` Jacob Moody
                     ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Anthony Martin @ 2023-03-26  2:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

sl@stanleylieber.com once said:
> there are still a lot of references in man pages to /lib/unicode.

Lol. That was actually committed? This, _Noreturn, __func__,
#pragma once, fondling the rio artwork, etc., etc. shows a
lack of taste.

I've been reverting a lot of changes lately in my tree after
pulling from you guys.

Cinap needs to crack the whip. ☺

Cheers,
  Anthony

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26  2:33 ` [9front] " Anthony Martin
@ 2023-03-26  2:55   ` Jacob Moody
  2023-03-26  3:05     ` sl
  2023-03-26  3:08     ` sl
  2023-03-26  3:09   ` Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir
                     ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Jacob Moody @ 2023-03-26  2:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

On 3/25/23 20:33, Anthony Martin wrote:
> sl@stanleylieber.com once said:
>> there are still a lot of references in man pages to /lib/unicode.
> 
> Lol. That was actually committed? This, _Noreturn, __func__,
> #pragma once, fondling the rio artwork, etc., etc. shows a
> lack of taste.

/lib/unicode was removed in favor of just using the upstream data file
it was ripped from. I have updated the references in the man pages
to reflect this. I apologize for that mistake. I am sorry that you
do not see value in these changes.

> 
> I've been reverting a lot of changes lately in my tree after
> pulling from you guys.
> 
> Cinap needs to crack the whip. ☺

I talk through a lot of these with cinap. All of the
things you have mentioned were discussed with multiple
people on the grid and in #cat-v, including cinap.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26  2:55   ` Jacob Moody
@ 2023-03-26  3:05     ` sl
  2023-03-26  3:25       ` Jacob Moody
  2023-03-26  3:08     ` sl
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: sl @ 2023-03-26  3:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

> /lib/unicode was removed in favor of just using the upstream data file
> it was ripped from. I have updated the references in the man pages
> to reflect this. I apologize for that mistake.

ah. no problem, i was just curious what was going on. i'll never
remember the new file path off the top of my head, but on the other
hand i guess i'm not manually checking /lib/unicode all that often
anyway.

why didn't we just have the mkfile put the information in the original
place?

sl

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26  2:55   ` Jacob Moody
  2023-03-26  3:05     ` sl
@ 2023-03-26  3:08     ` sl
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: sl @ 2023-03-26  3:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

>> Cinap needs to crack the whip. ☺
> 
> I talk through a lot of these with cinap. All of the
> things you have mentioned were discussed with multiple
> people on the grid and in #cat-v, including cinap.

i'm not an advocate of paperwork, and maybe people who
aren't on irc don't count, but more explanation in the
commit messages might alleviate confusion.

my problem was the normal file disappeared and it
wasn't really clear why.

sl

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26  2:33 ` [9front] " Anthony Martin
  2023-03-26  2:55   ` Jacob Moody
@ 2023-03-26  3:09   ` Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir
  2023-03-26  4:37     ` Kurt H Maier
  2023-03-26 14:52   ` cinap_lenrek
  2023-03-26 19:27   ` hiro
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir @ 2023-03-26  3:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front, Anthony Martin

You sound like a true 9fan alright.

On March 26, 2023 4:33:24 AM GMT+02:00, Anthony Martin <ality@pbrane.org> wrote:
>sl@stanleylieber.com once said:
>> there are still a lot of references in man pages to /lib/unicode.
>
>Lol. That was actually committed? This, _Noreturn, __func__,
>#pragma once, fondling the rio artwork, etc., etc. shows a
>lack of taste.
>
>I've been reverting a lot of changes lately in my tree after
>pulling from you guys.
>
>Cinap needs to crack the whip. ☺
>
>Cheers,
>  Anthony

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26  3:05     ` sl
@ 2023-03-26  3:25       ` Jacob Moody
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Jacob Moody @ 2023-03-26  3:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

On 3/25/23 21:05, sl@stanleylieber.com wrote:
>> /lib/unicode was removed in favor of just using the upstream data file
>> it was ripped from. I have updated the references in the man pages
>> to reflect this. I apologize for that mistake.
> 
> ah. no problem, i was just curious what was going on. i'll never
> remember the new file path off the top of my head, but on the other
> hand i guess i'm not manually checking /lib/unicode all that often
> anyway.
> 
> why didn't we just have the mkfile put the information in the original
> place?

Yes a couple reasons. /lib/unicode only included those in the 16bit BMP domain.
When extending this to include all the modern code points you need more hex digits.
Unless you went with using two different zero padded first columns. I could not
find a good way of updating these for things past the BMP and not breaking someone's
script.

Likewise /lib/unicode while derived from UnicodeData.txt does not include the data fields
that are needed to do the generation. So either way I was going to need to update each line
of the file anyway. I figured to instead just say 'we use the official txt file' is bit nicer
in my opinion.

Likewise other files were desired for the generation, so moving things to a directory seemed
to make more sense.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26  3:09   ` Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir
@ 2023-03-26  4:37     ` Kurt H Maier
  2023-03-26 13:26       ` qwx
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Kurt H Maier @ 2023-03-26  4:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 05:09:07AM +0200, Sigrid Solveig Hafl�nud�ttir wrote:
> You sound like a true 9fan alright.

The only acceptable change is the minimum needed to get 9legacy booted
on a Macbook in Virtualbox.

khm


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26  4:37     ` Kurt H Maier
@ 2023-03-26 13:26       ` qwx
  2023-03-26 14:27         ` ori
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: qwx @ 2023-03-26 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

On Sun Mar 26 06:38:48 +0200 2023, khm@sciops.net wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 05:09:07AM +0200, Sigrid Solveig Hafl�nud�ttir wrote:
> > You sound like a true 9fan alright.
> 
> The only acceptable change is the minimum needed to get 9legacy booted
> on a Macbook in Virtualbox.
> 
> khm

To be fair, some of these changes did not come with much explanation.
I know there has been discussions on #cat-v and on the grid, neither
of which I can follow nowadays.  moody did send a long mail about the
unicode stuff also mentioning /lib/unicode and including a patch
before commiting anything, but I did not see anything about the
noreturn or #pragma once stuff, I don't know what it's for or why it
should be included.  I do however know that there is actual discussion
and that none of the changes mentioned are baseless, both because
cinap and other main contributers are always part of the discussions,
and because I trust their judgment calls given all past contributions.

It's not lack of transparency, the discussions are just distributed
across meetings, #cat-v, the grid, etc.  and no one has the time/will
to try to recap and post them here for everyone.  At the same time,
since the last hackathon at least, large and important changes are
happening, at a much faster pace than before (or I guess, at all), and
touching things that have been avoided literally for decades so far.
I'm along for the ride and just reap the benefits from a ton of hard
and excellent work.  It's inspiring for me to see people not just
patching labs code but taking it one step further and exploring new
ideas and ways to make the system work better, as mycroftiv for
instance attempted to do in the past.  Plan 9 was a research operating
system, it's exciting to see actual research being done, and by people
who actually use the system daily.

Anthony's comments are extremely funny and ironic to me.  I challenge
anyone to show how any of these changes are a departure from the plan9
spirit or dogma or whatever, how exactly they are distasteful and most
importantly how the actual problems adressed they would solve better.
"fondling the rio artwork" is especially delicious.

Besides the 9frontlegacy don't touch the modern artwork'ing, I think
that there is a takeaway here, and it's the need to be as explicit as
possible with such changes.  Again to their credit, moody and others
have taken great pains to be as transparent as possible with larger
changes, and so far even just longer commit messages have worked well.
Mistakes, lapses can happen.  Or the changes are obvious and some are
like me just ignorant.  I can try to find the discussions in my
ever-growing backlog, or just ask here.  I therefore urge anyone this
perplexed before the commit log to show some courtesy and just ask.

And yeah, in the end, that's just like, my opinion man.  Apologies for
the long, perhaps unnecessary mail, and for anything obvious I might
have missed.

Thanks to all and cheers,
qwx

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26 13:26       ` qwx
@ 2023-03-26 14:27         ` ori
  2023-03-26 17:43           ` Jacob Moody
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2023-03-26 14:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

Quoth qwx@sciops.net:
> On Sun Mar 26 06:38:48 +0200 2023, khm@sciops.net wrote:
> > On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 05:09:07AM +0200, Sigrid Solveig Hafl�nud�ttir wrote:
> > > You sound like a true 9fan alright.
> > 
> > The only acceptable change is the minimum needed to get 9legacy booted
> > on a Macbook in Virtualbox.
> > 
> > khm
> 
> To be fair, some of these changes did not come with much explanation.
> I know there has been discussions on #cat-v and on the grid, neither
> of which I can follow nowadays.  moody did send a long mail about the
> unicode stuff also mentioning /lib/unicode and including a patch
> before commiting anything

Yes; the time to discuss alternative approaches was when
the mail about the future of unicode was sent. That was
a solicitation to find and resolve disagreement about it.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26  2:33 ` [9front] " Anthony Martin
  2023-03-26  2:55   ` Jacob Moody
  2023-03-26  3:09   ` Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir
@ 2023-03-26 14:52   ` cinap_lenrek
  2023-03-26 19:27   ` hiro
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: cinap_lenrek @ 2023-03-26 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

IIRC, __func__ and #pragma once are for helping
some ape ports only.

I'd agree that these are kind of anti features...
These should never be used in native plan9 code.

On the other hand, if it makes the life easier
for porting ape stuff and ideally keeping stuff
upstreamed with the original authors i was not
against it.

The _Noreturn stuff is motivated by practical
problems.

It comes up often in the kernel which uses the
waserror() and error()/nexterror() handling logic.

Right now, we squelch the "used but not set"
warnings that it causes by initializing stuff
always. But this hides real bugs. 

As an experiment, i changed the error()/nexterror()
into macros wrapped in a infinite loop and removed
all these dummy initializers and actually found bugs
in the scsi driver in the kernel.

--
cinap

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26 14:27         ` ori
@ 2023-03-26 17:43           ` Jacob Moody
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Jacob Moody @ 2023-03-26 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

On 3/26/23 08:27, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:
> Quoth qwx@sciops.net:
>> On Sun Mar 26 06:38:48 +0200 2023, khm@sciops.net wrote:
>>> On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 05:09:07AM +0200, Sigrid Solveig Hafl�nud�ttir wrote:
>>>> You sound like a true 9fan alright.
>>>
>>> The only acceptable change is the minimum needed to get 9legacy booted
>>> on a Macbook in Virtualbox.
>>>
>>> khm
>>
>> To be fair, some of these changes did not come with much explanation.
>> I know there has been discussions on #cat-v and on the grid, neither
>> of which I can follow nowadays.  moody did send a long mail about the
>> unicode stuff also mentioning /lib/unicode and including a patch
>> before commiting anything
> 
> Yes; the time to discuss alternative approaches was when
> the mail about the future of unicode was sent. That was
> a solicitation to find and resolve disagreement about it.
> 

I would just like to add that this included the whole patch
for review that was sent the other day. And the open solicitation
I had made in October of 2022 for someone else to take interest.
You will find it as '[PATCH] introduce code points above BMP to /lib/unicode'
in your records. Along with the patch I wrote some open ended brain dumps about
what to do in that thread. A lot of those thoughts are still seen in the implementation
today.

Thank you all,
Jacob Moody


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26  2:33 ` [9front] " Anthony Martin
                     ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2023-03-26 14:52   ` cinap_lenrek
@ 2023-03-26 19:27   ` hiro
  2023-03-26 19:42     ` [9front] " Michael Misch
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2023-03-26 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

as a recognized troll i am well qualified to detect my own kind.
so, well played, anthony martin.
great troll.
i'm in awe.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26 19:27   ` hiro
@ 2023-03-26 19:42     ` Michael Misch
  2023-03-26 20:46       ` hiro
                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Michael Misch @ 2023-03-26 19:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

I feel like we’re falling well beyond the scope of discourse. I feel that this has become, at absolute best, philosophical meandering; and at worst some wildly unhealthy conflation with some imagined sanctity within a piece of software, and ones own personality and self worth via using it. 

People in 9front clearly want to use this to meet their computing needs. It can’t also exist as a higher definition of truth or purity, especially one attached to so many toxic personalities.

I have too many demons of my own to also fight yours, just to be a part of a community.

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode
> Date: March 26, 2023 at 12:27:16 PDT
> To: 9front@9front.org
> Reply-To: 9front@9front.org
> 
> as a recognized troll i am well qualified to detect my own kind.
> so, well played, anthony martin.
> great troll.
> i'm in awe.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26 19:42     ` [9front] " Michael Misch
@ 2023-03-26 20:46       ` hiro
  2023-03-26 23:24       ` Kurt H Maier
  2023-03-27 21:40       ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2023-03-26 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

chill, people, don't waste so many words. it's just a troll.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26 19:42     ` [9front] " Michael Misch
  2023-03-26 20:46       ` hiro
@ 2023-03-26 23:24       ` Kurt H Maier
  2023-03-27 21:40       ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Kurt H Maier @ 2023-03-26 23:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 12:42:18PM -0700, Michael Misch wrote:
> I feel like we’re falling well beyond the scope of discourse.

Please provide the rest of us the parameters necessary to determine the
scope of discourse.  I don't want to fall out of compliance again.

Regards,
khm


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-26 19:42     ` [9front] " Michael Misch
  2023-03-26 20:46       ` hiro
  2023-03-26 23:24       ` Kurt H Maier
@ 2023-03-27 21:40       ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2023-03-27 22:15         ` hiro
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) @ 2023-03-27 21:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front, Michael Misch

Michael Misch writes:

> People in 9front clearly want to use this to meet their computing needs. =
> It can=E2=80=99t also exist as a higher definition of truth or purity, =

The nice thing about having all the source in git is that you can
create your own local branch and then cherry pick the changes you
want to adopt.  While these days I mostly run 9front, there are
parts of it that I disagree with, or where I want or need to do
things differently.  Git branches makes that a breeze.

So if you want back /lib/unicode, or anything else, create a branch,
revert the change, rebuild, and you're done.

Plan9 was never meant to be "one size fits all."  It's a base for
extension and customization.

And never forget namespaces.  Don't like something?  Map over it!

--lyndon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-27 21:40       ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
@ 2023-03-27 22:15         ` hiro
  2023-03-28  0:01           ` Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2023-03-27 22:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front

you people with your own customized branches: i hope you're sharing
your divergences, it might be helpful to others, educational, or at
least curious to some people here.

On 3/27/23, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
> Michael Misch writes:
>
>> People in 9front clearly want to use this to meet their computing needs.
>> =
>> It can=E2=80=99t also exist as a higher definition of truth or purity, =
>
> The nice thing about having all the source in git is that you can
> create your own local branch and then cherry pick the changes you
> want to adopt.  While these days I mostly run 9front, there are
> parts of it that I disagree with, or where I want or need to do
> things differently.  Git branches makes that a breeze.
>
> So if you want back /lib/unicode, or anything else, create a branch,
> revert the change, rebuild, and you're done.
>
> Plan9 was never meant to be "one size fits all."  It's a base for
> extension and customization.
>
> And never forget namespaces.  Don't like something?  Map over it!
>
> --lyndon
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [9front] removal of /lib/unicode
  2023-03-27 22:15         ` hiro
@ 2023-03-28  0:01           ` Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir @ 2023-03-28  0:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9front, hiro

*Real* 9fans don't provide technical reasons, nor any code. Secret super secret secret disagreement club is where it's at.

On March 28, 2023 12:15:10 AM GMT+02:00, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>you people with your own customized branches: i hope you're sharing
>your divergences, it might be helpful to others, educational, or at
>least curious to some people here.
>
>On 3/27/23, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
>> Michael Misch writes:
>>
>>> People in 9front clearly want to use this to meet their computing needs.
>>> =
>>> It can=E2=80=99t also exist as a higher definition of truth or purity, =
>>
>> The nice thing about having all the source in git is that you can
>> create your own local branch and then cherry pick the changes you
>> want to adopt.  While these days I mostly run 9front, there are
>> parts of it that I disagree with, or where I want or need to do
>> things differently.  Git branches makes that a breeze.
>>
>> So if you want back /lib/unicode, or anything else, create a branch,
>> revert the change, rebuild, and you're done.
>>
>> Plan9 was never meant to be "one size fits all."  It's a base for
>> extension and customization.
>>
>> And never forget namespaces.  Don't like something?  Map over it!
>>
>> --lyndon
>>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2023-03-28  0:09 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 19+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2023-03-26  2:23 [9front] removal of /lib/unicode sl
2023-03-26  2:33 ` [9front] " Anthony Martin
2023-03-26  2:55   ` Jacob Moody
2023-03-26  3:05     ` sl
2023-03-26  3:25       ` Jacob Moody
2023-03-26  3:08     ` sl
2023-03-26  3:09   ` Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir
2023-03-26  4:37     ` Kurt H Maier
2023-03-26 13:26       ` qwx
2023-03-26 14:27         ` ori
2023-03-26 17:43           ` Jacob Moody
2023-03-26 14:52   ` cinap_lenrek
2023-03-26 19:27   ` hiro
2023-03-26 19:42     ` [9front] " Michael Misch
2023-03-26 20:46       ` hiro
2023-03-26 23:24       ` Kurt H Maier
2023-03-27 21:40       ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
2023-03-27 22:15         ` hiro
2023-03-28  0:01           ` Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir

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