From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <9front-bounces@9front.inri.net> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from 9front.inri.net (9front.inri.net [168.235.81.73]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DFA228385 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2024 23:36:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mimir.eigenstate.org ([206.124.132.107]) by 9front; Sun Aug 4 17:34:13 -0400 2024 Received: from mimir.eigenstate.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mimir.eigenstate.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id bd8615da for <9front@9front.org>; Sun, 4 Aug 2024 14:34:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=eigenstate.org; h= message-id:to:subject:date:from:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mail; bh=kzsfiNKWYGjh L+K5tSb/S1KHY1Y=; b=kvlY3TJ5kY1LG8QkSQp18AKn7roY6bJV8f1aXbRXGxbE 71W5Sh+bctHsykzqjHL3hVqUm7N9TgwPaD5HSkpPkEHxw3c8HZ6NC5Ecj6Rb/Xb4 u6YDamuOrWqCHeoHo40Ray8xX0IXcaj2P91toon/yAObGROOSwL55BlBfA941tY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=eigenstate.org; h=message-id :to:subject:date:from:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=mail; b=XM29ukDfWEjQJFmV3i1 lmOHmYEpj/a1EXMrITRVLvgSfl7Qp3PvZkZfHHawNlR8hm1LXDgJlu3wo/2VlBNA Wjo5yDBgVSCjrXqhpta8fdGFPogfD4/3amG6AAdDkH91PMMySkbCGaOZY8FkSso8 wTBHoLuSwbUAU7ezNYAo/zs8= Received: from chainsaw ( [172.58.160.34]) by mimir.eigenstate.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 68800500 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256:NO) for <9front@9front.org>; Sun, 4 Aug 2024 14:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6FB99C7720140A4B3969EA601A4B3588@eigenstate.org> To: 9front@9front.org Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 17:31:29 -0400 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: RESTful SSL over SVG singleton reduce/map generator Subject: Re: [9front] Thoughts on Wayland? Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk Quoth Willow Liquorice : > Hello again 9front, > > (Warning: long email is long) > > I've been leafing through the Wayland protocol, comparing it to rio and > /dev/draw. To me, a system that could speak Wayland sounds much more > compatible with the wider software ecosystem. > A system that fully implements the posix APIs would also be more compatible with the wider software ecosystem, however it would not be more pleasant to program for or interact with; The appeal of Plan 9 is that it's simplified things to the essentials, and doesn't pull in a bunch of overengineered junk. So, as for Wayland specifically: The biggest problem with it is that it's not a protocol. It's got a core that's insufficient for actual use, and a set of mutually incompatible extensisons that forces each user to write programs that explicitly support wlroots, gnome, and KDE with separate hacks. To pick on an example, cursor warping in drawterm only works in some environments, because others fail to support those specific extensisons. On top of that, the protocol's model of resources is rather overengineered and painful to use. More or less, Wayland was misdesigned on different axes than X11; it's not clear which one is a worse approach. However, Wayland is clearly a worse fit for Plan 9 than devdraw; it's designed for the case where not only does the GPU live on the same machine as the compositor, it's designed for the case where every single piece of software doing drawing lives on the same machine as well.