From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <9front-bounces@9front.inri.net> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from 9front.inri.net (9front.inri.net [168.235.81.73]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0B72685C for ; Wed, 8 May 2024 01:20:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from butterfly.birch.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.209.27]) by 9front; Tue May 7 19:16:28 -0400 2024 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|lists@ecloud.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3E4760F8D for <9front@9front.org>; Tue, 7 May 2024 23:16:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a313.dreamhost.com (unknown [127.0.0.6]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BFD60760C93 for <9front@9front.org>; Tue, 7 May 2024 23:16:21 +0000 (UTC) ARC-Seal: i=1; s=arc-2022; d=mailchannels.net; t=1715123781; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=kHanZ/PzRHf+8UHO4lyEsXRmkuzz7+z35D1x4n0ooNZS4+zFvFTzCx8cI91ntZXdfceNi7 +UQrAHTtKb28H0NNMkwx7/lgMWOXT8CQc26U/k3UYdFM7Vd4ydQtqQ/wkrq9642QJ+cxt1 8WIuc/gqHJulIOgzW4L3X0GgRqSNyf4DB4t7pQx1MjDoEgWQBprImUvCvQ3XuEDjPq3pYv yT9PjxOsVs60iGDehffS8TVIonqGX4whPS4Z0mOW1j1KzCinBh56Qtvp3OX1ej6xPlUKXV X2wmYZw7ycAlkFgy7gXq4sgsZ9tJgpCZHXSkq6Nw7WeHMZgU70hWIt9Y/kT9Ww== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailchannels.net; s=arc-2022; t=1715123781; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:dkim-signature; bh=eSLCsHtGfZFSoMR/90nL40egfQHmZQfyh/zDr9iNIOs=; b=exuY2JCvgzATXN8jg1g4icfmEJ6JRBBctpvB/RhbRESsF94gIEK8It/DDCip9rdL2/ViSZ ek1eZYZJFx10aEjwFDj3OhL/alkg0nqmfjOFXtuH9qJt7xvmh5hpKr1W7X8K/zYztMU3k1 LRhRGHgbJ/XQ/dgEN7MfYK2Pp9QGmq+A3h/fWI6Y4KUqlX5B1UEozXp4n7qFB17nKZLWnb XerDy/Vdm2WKOWLWoaztCqi5RHAagVJRbun4nByXyWyM/nbTblzW0X0VUhwx20jcIe91hZ 9Dv9uZHIXy8U0HqGhbYO8AE9wV13V3GTT76o9aHhOD7GLXaRxZJHpw1OXGAmxA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; rspamd-68bbddc7f5-xrgdp; auth=pass smtp.auth=dreamhost smtp.mailfrom=lists@ecloud.org X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|lists@ecloud.org X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|lists@ecloud.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Plucky-Little: 0a4a40232fe5bcf6_1715123782011_1897878992 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1715123782011:1235466941 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1715123782011 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a313.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by 100.109.254.205 (trex/6.9.2); Tue, 07 May 2024 23:16:22 +0000 Received: from smtpclient.apple (ti0007a400-0241.bb.online.no [88.91.22.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: lists@ecloud.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a313.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4VYvKc6lv6z1x for <9front@9front.org>; Tue, 7 May 2024 16:16:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ecloud.org; s=dreamhost; t=1715123781; bh=eSLCsHtGfZFSoMR/90nL40egfQHmZQfyh/zDr9iNIOs=; h=From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Subject:Date:To; b=E4O3loqQZdXX4YJZpZOLhwb8oU0tyKhLyMwE+Ew9D+6B6CgnL/vnmEwwnuAJsvOpv 765c4+QM+Cm3rwbdrGEaMdx1JllwQf5XqszlIEo/2UfhJpb92jeuIeq48gyJHVHG28 +VqCwFasUBFvyzcB+nDbgRfgP363lLBtwIZ9dYCMyskqyrIrOn1VAe6hC3F3mFWfZN 4NPKMyG/i4bySDmUXFLafgE8z7sHtOJOc4CBNo77LQaz7iRw1c7CSGOKcA+VZd/BQ/ zCDT73a+X7+bh+4sqThcfW7+QJueuWN0FM0WehQ2jD0h7i4cnRH2KxqTyQJYj0qzTe Z1GurXuY/031g== From: Shawn Rutledge Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.500.171.1.1\)) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 16:16:05 -0700 References: To: 9front@9front.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <8557C94F-E6DF-42BA-B92E-6BBB0751116A@ecloud.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.500.171.1.1) List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: basic responsive core manager Subject: Re: [9front] Enabling a service Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk And yet, the FQA recommends laptops. Usually the assumption with a = laptop is you can take it on the subway or to the coffee shop and keep = working. That implies that you want to have some relevant files with = you. (So it=E2=80=99s good the default install has a local filesystem.) = Then later you get back to the home/office and maybe want to use a = machine with a bigger monitor and more files available, but some work in = progress is on the laptop so maybe you want to rcpu to it for a while. = Eventually files get synced up again (manually or automatically). Maybe = at home there is a file server, sure it=E2=80=99s good to have the = dumps. That=E2=80=99s probably how I=E2=80=99d use it as soon as I get = to the point of depending on Plan 9 for any particular task, not just = trying things. (It reminds me of learning how to use Linux, 30 years = ago. It was at a similar level of development back then.) So obviously there=E2=80=99s a tradeoff between 9front being usable by a = laptop user today vs. trying to preserve the labs experience, and having = to answer the same questions over and over (how do I start a service, = why do I have to reboot into a different mode to make that possible). I = won=E2=80=99t ask how to do that; but others will. As for "half-assed network services", I assume that means security = concerns; ok so not enough faith in how secure the services are by = default (well that ought to be fixable eventually?), and not enough = faith in users not to realize that they should try experiments on a = local LAN before connecting the services to the Internet (which usually = involves some router work anyway, assuming the machine is behind one)? = People who take excessive risks are mainly risking their own files; they = should know better, but they probably aren=E2=80=99t going to have a lot = of files on Plan 9 anyway. What=E2=80=99s the worst risk besides data = theft? A mail server getting used as a spam relay or something like = that? I agree that setting up a mail server should be more effort. > 9p vs latency is a losing battle. trying to run a diskless terminal > over the internet really, REALLY sucks. even drawterm is not great > in this context. I left a 9front machine running on my LAN in Norway while I=E2=80=99m in = Phoenix for a while, and set up a wireguard vpn on the openwrt router in = Norway so that I can connect to home. Latency in Phoenix is worse than = normal (Verizon wireless internet: it's only meant to be temporary). = Despite that, the performance I see connecting with rcpu or drawterm = halfway around the world is comparable to connecting to Linux over VNC: = not bad for an experiment (as long as wifi on 9front is not in the path! = ;-) I don=E2=80=99t expect to play video over that link. But I also = have qualms about letting the router connect 9p over the Internet to = that Plan 9 machine, since I don=E2=80=99t know yet all the varieties of = half-assedness to expect by default. I think I have to try the Plan 9 = network forwarding at some point though, see if the claim that it=E2=80=99= s as good as a VPN really holds up. But I have to learn enough about = security before even trying, it seems.