From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: by 10.236.108.44 with SMTP id p32cs75470yhg; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 06:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <9front+bncCL_WxeGXFBCumPzsBBoEx7YTxg@googlegroups.com> Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of 9front+bncCL_WxeGXFBCumPzsBBoEx7YTxg@googlegroups.com designates 10.223.161.151 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.223.161.151; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of 9front+bncCL_WxeGXFBCumPzsBBoEx7YTxg@googlegroups.com designates 10.223.161.151 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=9front+bncCL_WxeGXFBCumPzsBBoEx7YTxg@googlegroups.com; dkim=pass header.i=9front+bncCL_WxeGXFBCumPzsBBoEx7YTxg@googlegroups.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.223.161.151]) by 10.223.161.151 with SMTP id r23mr1532475fax.13.1302268974103 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:22:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=PFwq4WZ3JogNQdNR899ldCtj5mqx9gwWWNBT3buNt88=; b=YBlKA+lWfdlD3IHKj06/OtUTfkIrewf0Fy0Xv8B07ufm44Xuio8dZ8fm8wWgbE8urk Rs4IqCXn7UXuORbzUWB/thLSXJBnChVAtPIwoODa3LcJd/pBVPxkRj1Bws7wBqIU+6OM ZavPk+IMkpkaH0rkf+MdDy0h9L9h+hz7JmPqM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ot0zR9MOcCva/fm0T94sm/RsJ5en81pKFHspzALqOVfCjtbWbhtX3MW18giKrVxXlG 8slgW1eab8KM0dYLeFhIl9Ukt4bXbQPG8TE3c9JYmnr86vNtbTw76RYZlQGI4JaZ1BV5 DozPBI1hfBtUif6aLDPGlhnhYlV691J4bSKv0= Received: by 10.223.161.151 with SMTP id r23mr438061fax.13.1302268974036; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:22:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: 9front@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.138.67 with SMTP id z3ls1277234bkt.0.p; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.7.74 with SMTP id c10mr344832bkc.6.1302268973434; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.7.74 with SMTP id c10mr344831bkc.6.1302268973403; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f42.google.com (mail-fx0-f42.google.com [209.85.161.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o19si485107bkw.7.2011.04.08.06.22.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jaketodd422@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.42; Received: by fxm1 with SMTP id 1so3216751fxm.15 for <9front@googlegroups.com>; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:22:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.160.8 with SMTP id l8mr986390fax.114.1302268972879; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.120.73 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 06:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.120.73 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 06:22:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <41D312FB-F15E-4DC5-8B8F-2EDEA44460A2@fastmail.fm> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 13:22:52 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: package manager? seriously? From: Jacob Todd To: 9front@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jaketodd422@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jaketodd422@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jaketodd422@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: 9front@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list 9front@googlegroups.com; contact 9front+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: <9front.googlegroups.com> X-Google-Group-Id: 831096995978 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: 9front@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00235427500087d0c804a0681f20 --00235427500087d0c804a0681f20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 What stuff are you talking about? Ape ports? A package manager? It's unclear from your post. On Apr 8, 2011 9:16 AM, "cinap_lenrek" wrote: > i completly agree with this! > > i'm not a fan of package managers... compiling and installing native > stuff in plan9 is very easy... you untar a file somewhere, run mk > install > and its done... after this procedure, you know exactly what files > where > installed/changed and the process is transparent and not hidden in > replica logs and shell scripts... > > but the image changes when you consider ape ports... these *have* > dependencies and unfortunatly are not self contained :-( > > maybe we just add the stuff in the 9front distribution then? > > -- > cinap > > On Apr 4, 3:16 am, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: >> Ugh. I'm tired, I've been writing and doing stuff far too much this >> past week, and then people start bringing up "what's going to be >> 9front's package manager" as if it were some kind of fait accompli, >> and instantly talking about "how are we going to have the package >> manager deal with config files?" >> >> I think martian67 helped me organize my thoughts best when he said >> "packages enforce a certain structure on things." ... I don't if this >> will come across in text but what I really wanted to reply to that is >> "Oh! OH!! Ohhh yeeesss, let's ENFORCE STRUCTURE!!! STRUCTURE is >> GOOOOOOOD! Must have STRUCTURE!" >> >> Plan 9's design is extremely good at making structure work in good, >> useful, non-limiting ways. What's the system which makes the most use >> of package management today? Gnu/Linux. What's the one system which >> employs structure in the very worst way possible throughout? Gnu/Linux. >> >> Package managers are a big part of the disease. Dependency tracking >> helps create the longest and most brittle dependency chains. Config >> file management isn't management at all. Either you are managing the >> config files on your system or something else is, which way is it >> going to go? >> >> Another big argument is package managers somehow stop things making a >> mess all over your system. Er, no, they provide a way for people to >> patch random shit to fit an arbitrary structure... Is "random shit" >> even remotely relevant in the context of 9front? For fuck's sake how >> much bullshit are we going to pile on this OS anyway? Without, you >> know, making it fit the OS first? Good grief people, THINK already. >> >> Finally... "ohmigosh but the ONLY way you can possibly uninstall >> cleanly is with a package manager" argument, to which I will reply >> with two words: make uninstall. Plan 9 mkfiles already have all the >> files they install listed, it shouldn't be hard to put an uninstall >> target in the files every mkfile sources. This isn't random bullshit >> made to work with crappy implementations of make, this is something >> for which we can make an uninstall target work already. >> >> For those STILL in fucking lust with package managers, will you >> PLEASE stop thinking of 9front as a suitable platform for megalithic >> dinosaurian monstrosities? --00235427500087d0c804a0681f20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What stuff are you talking about? Ape ports? A package manager? It's= unclear from your post.

On Apr 8, 2011 9:16 AM, "cinap_lenrek"= <cinap_lenrek@gmx.de> wro= te:
> i completly agree with this!
>
&= gt; i'm not a fan of package managers... compiling and installing nativ= e
> stuff in plan9 is very easy... you untar a file somewhere, run mk
&= gt; install
> and its done... after this procedure, you know exactly = what files
> where
> installed/changed and the process is trans= parent and not hidden in
> replica logs and shell scripts...
>
> but the image chang= es when you consider ape ports... these *have*
> dependencies and unf= ortunatly are not self contained :-(
>
> maybe we just add the= stuff in the 9front distribution then?
>
> --
> cinap
>
> On Apr 4, 3:16=C2=A0am, Eth= an Grammatikidis <eeke...@fastmai= l.fm> wrote:
>> Ugh. I'm tired, I've been writing a= nd doing stuff far too much this =C2=A0
>> past week, and then people start bringing up "what's goin= g to be =C2=A0
>> 9front's package manager" as if it were= some kind of fait accompli, =C2=A0
>> and instantly talking about= "how are we going to have the package =C2=A0
>> manager deal with config files?"
>>
>> I th= ink martian67 helped me organize my thoughts best when he said =C2=A0
&g= t;> "packages enforce a certain structure on things." ... I do= n't if this =C2=A0
>> will come across in text but what I really wanted to reply to that= is =C2=A0
>> "Oh! OH!! Ohhh yeeesss, let's ENFORCE STRUC= TURE!!! STRUCTURE is =C2=A0
>> GOOOOOOOD! Must have STRUCTURE!&quo= t;
>>
>> Plan 9's design is extremely good at making struct= ure work in good, =C2=A0
>> useful, non-limiting ways. What's = the system which makes the most use =C2=A0
>> of package managemen= t today? Gnu/Linux. What's the one system which =C2=A0
>> employs structure in the very worst way possible throughout? Gnu/L= inux.
>>
>> Package managers are a big part of the diseas= e. Dependency tracking =C2=A0
>> helps create the longest and most= brittle dependency chains. Config =C2=A0
>> file management isn't management at all. Either you are managi= ng the =C2=A0
>> config files on your system or something else is,= which way is it =C2=A0
>> going to go?
>>
>> An= other big argument is package managers somehow stop things making a =C2=A0<= br> >> mess all over your system. Er, no, they provide a way for people t= o =C2=A0
>> patch random shit to fit an arbitrary structure... Is = "random shit" =C2=A0
>> even remotely relevant in the co= ntext of 9front? For fuck's sake how =C2=A0
>> much bullshit are we going to pile on this OS anyway? Without, you= =C2=A0
>> know, making it fit the OS first? Good grief people, TH= INK already.
>>
>> Finally... "ohmigosh but the ONLY= way you can possibly uninstall =C2=A0
>> cleanly is with a package manager" argument, to which I will = reply =C2=A0
>> with two words: make uninstall. Plan 9 mkfiles =C2= =A0already have all the =C2=A0
>> files they install listed, it sh= ouldn't be hard to put an uninstall =C2=A0
>> target in the files every mkfile sources. This isn't random bu= llshit =C2=A0
>> made to work with crappy implementations of make,= this is something =C2=A0
>> for which we can make an uninstall ta= rget work already.
>>
>> For those STILL in fucking lust with package managers,= will you =C2=A0
>> PLEASE stop thinking of 9front as a suitable p= latform for megalithic =C2=A0
>> dinosaurian monstrosities?
--00235427500087d0c804a0681f20--