From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21321 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2023 13:30:16 -0000 Received: from 9front.inri.net (168.235.81.73) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Mar 2023 13:30:16 -0000 Received: from wopr.sciops.net ([216.126.196.60]) by 9front; Sun Mar 26 09:26:59 -0400 2023 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sciops.net; s=20210706; t=1679837121; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to; bh=MVavzs6jNzEf28nRFjdwROoU80J52c0YP+RHAm3ozpE=; b=EJBnv+goD4ew9/R6LglQSi+L4rmKbekFy259+6I9LI0D6QGyfw5PzuFB90UBQaEF8rFGz/ cca//bDobucv/Nbap3Uwj/AcpL1Sw99H8m+X5tHxUOrhNiB4Um71l8z1o5QI3Hx3gvPjI3 sSV3lxCC8Muqkyr8bZUNhYSwnKTfugU= Received: by wopr.sciops.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 680907d4 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305:256:NO) for <9front@9front.org>; Sun, 26 Mar 2023 06:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 15:26:50 +0200 From: qwx@sciops.net To: 9front@9front.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: virtual realtime table map/reduce-oriented CSS optimizer Subject: Re: [9front] Re: removal of /lib/unicode Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk On Sun Mar 26 06:38:48 +0200 2023, khm@sciops.net wrote: > On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 05:09:07AM +0200, Sigrid Solveig Hafl�nud�ttir wrote: > > You sound like a true 9fan alright. > > The only acceptable change is the minimum needed to get 9legacy booted > on a Macbook in Virtualbox. > > khm To be fair, some of these changes did not come with much explanation. I know there has been discussions on #cat-v and on the grid, neither of which I can follow nowadays. moody did send a long mail about the unicode stuff also mentioning /lib/unicode and including a patch before commiting anything, but I did not see anything about the noreturn or #pragma once stuff, I don't know what it's for or why it should be included. I do however know that there is actual discussion and that none of the changes mentioned are baseless, both because cinap and other main contributers are always part of the discussions, and because I trust their judgment calls given all past contributions. It's not lack of transparency, the discussions are just distributed across meetings, #cat-v, the grid, etc. and no one has the time/will to try to recap and post them here for everyone. At the same time, since the last hackathon at least, large and important changes are happening, at a much faster pace than before (or I guess, at all), and touching things that have been avoided literally for decades so far. I'm along for the ride and just reap the benefits from a ton of hard and excellent work. It's inspiring for me to see people not just patching labs code but taking it one step further and exploring new ideas and ways to make the system work better, as mycroftiv for instance attempted to do in the past. Plan 9 was a research operating system, it's exciting to see actual research being done, and by people who actually use the system daily. Anthony's comments are extremely funny and ironic to me. I challenge anyone to show how any of these changes are a departure from the plan9 spirit or dogma or whatever, how exactly they are distasteful and most importantly how the actual problems adressed they would solve better. "fondling the rio artwork" is especially delicious. Besides the 9frontlegacy don't touch the modern artwork'ing, I think that there is a takeaway here, and it's the need to be as explicit as possible with such changes. Again to their credit, moody and others have taken great pains to be as transparent as possible with larger changes, and so far even just longer commit messages have worked well. Mistakes, lapses can happen. Or the changes are obvious and some are like me just ignorant. I can try to find the discussions in my ever-growing backlog, or just ask here. I therefore urge anyone this perplexed before the commit log to show some courtesy and just ask. And yeah, in the end, that's just like, my opinion man. Apologies for the long, perhaps unnecessary mail, and for anything obvious I might have missed. Thanks to all and cheers, qwx