From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16673 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2023 00:10:57 -0000 Received: from 9front.inri.net (168.235.81.73) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Aug 2023 00:10:57 -0000 Received: from mail-yw1-f179.google.com ([209.85.128.179]) by 9front; Thu Aug 10 20:07:27 -0400 2023 Received: by mail-yw1-f179.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-583ae4818c8so16438467b3.3 for <9front@9front.org>; Thu, 10 Aug 2023 17:07:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1691712445; x=1692317245; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kL1odqKbIiCdbHRu7plV+HaaWqN+trYgTxjIDzRz+28=; b=Qeq4xxAYQRDIFcJazcUEcsDFTS+SvOm2VlUpPPlHtX+TGuJWqm7lEvPvOzGlOxSIJh pB7Imvh1m2Oz3jtjgJUdZ5YolW5a7s9m1x407Kek4GZrq8AAGOJePPNglJsBeqQUP2QX cprdR3QCk1IpXIf+feqRsC+HQGSGq69qjnaOCRxpuup06aK1CHMnXZ4kd7ssYH8fhz8b In2XMmlM/bitrZp2vEpUdIZsSwCYXVDTXGhsOQmKgpNOVwyU33QfRgWhZE85FIE/HOVE zsalpB9iuAQAvGPBYSceyABwtjgufWTOQWBcaldjHY/U+dxUhdjk8vMBrzDFqih12Isg XwyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1691712445; x=1692317245; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kL1odqKbIiCdbHRu7plV+HaaWqN+trYgTxjIDzRz+28=; b=V/6rk0ZcIggi97lOzlh7ZE8PC14Kc0Ok2YsfQ3MoLckTUnNItl4gaz3yyU1QLMDt93 2gbTKMP3rL5aRAwGYUHkzfy9rN4ifSyFgsGh1pMg926wFIqxNUKrPQjzYPg0SIVGtKOb 850Z126ornfl8LyvzuUSh8VjXgCtb5DT7Oz2g/eiYnLnLv2H1vIAjnnZGyRUNKMW3Wyc 0JqDSt49pDT+dsiEYPjdtEgUu1bAHrfCpVBWXxN+6gZYDTiik/NWN3N0wvo4rIGDxweR zFy0gjGaF0dN9neZ3Wp7uXKtdI65U915lwUSjQDAFHS6ZNS5xAUkZTJwy1jbdeS235kR c6IA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxOvLOMG8/J7G4l1UOqvznXbj4wokkntI/B+nonYIwLtHs18ntQ NmG5GyJbbF8bICuUJuclCtGgPHddaTw/icwQsaIKdOe1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHlXTi2IsUnlWWO740GewpRwOD0Qctza4lqDzntcTkc4eLVgYSdzjLUCNwP43NVOHXUKdINXXLkXq8qpMh97WY= X-Received: by 2002:a81:c30a:0:b0:577:1a4e:51f with SMTP id r10-20020a81c30a000000b005771a4e051fmr326086ywk.39.1691712445335; Thu, 10 Aug 2023 17:07:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:7000:bb09:b0:4fb:7927:fc1a with HTTP; Thu, 10 Aug 2023 17:07:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Stuart Morrow Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2023 01:07:24 +0100 Message-ID: To: 9front@9front.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: CSS SVG hosting element descriptor Subject: Re: [9front] "Touching the Artwork" strikes again Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk > Right, except Exit was discussed back and forth on both channels I > mentioned, while being developed and after, with many opinions > considered. We arrived at where we are now based on the result of > those discussions. It wasn't just one person secretly git/push'ing. "There was discussion" and "the matter is settled" are clearly not the same thing. The first part of that inequation is disputed by nobody. That Exit and Delete are conflatable was not brought up at all back then to my knowledge, so the current solution doesn't take the whole problem into account. I offer a concept that would solve a number of problems with a single technology: 1. The question of how to Exit - and the fact that it was discussed shows there is a question. 2. People would like to be able to alt-tab and stuff (in this concept it would just be tab - you don't need alt when you're already in a quasimode), but how do you do keyboard control when nesting exists. On other systems nestable multiplexers use the logical but *plain bad* method of escaping keyboard commands. This sets the standard for what to avoid. 3. Keeping menus short. Window management that requires a manual is an absolute non-starter if you ask me, but if we're just talking "extra" commands it's fine. Not sure if this belongs to 2 or 3, but I wouldn't mind seeing what happens and what usage patterns emerge when undo/redo (for win. mgmt operations) exists. Thousands of window managers and nobody ever seems to think of this? >> Exit sounds like it could mean to close, plus it's easier to find in >> the menu than Delete is. > > That is a speculation, not a fact. Maybe for you personally this is > confusing? Quoting the author of the video you linked: > > < nzm_> hey, I just saw on ML someone mentioned my presentation > - happy you found it but my error was oddly trivial and I'm not sure > what the issue is Not seeing in big picture is common here. If you read this far I think I have cleared it up. But this is what you get when you're good implementers but don't have a Uriel, someone who sees and/or cares about more than just the code. You get Mothra as the default in the same system where plumbing is up and running by default, you get riow in the release *before* screenlock has been made a 9P server that runs ahead of Rio and interposes all input on all input devices. >> Exit is something nobody wants unless they're advanced enough to know >> about hidden menu commands. > > That is a speculation. Several people wanted an Exit and it was > enough "wants" to get it in. The sentence continues past the word "nobody". Nobody who doesn't know to just go for the nearest word to "Close" (you don't keep looking for something once you think you've found it) needs (let alone wants) Exit.