From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <9front-bounces@9front.inri.net> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from 9front.inri.net (9front.inri.net [168.235.81.73]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D038B23331 for ; Wed, 8 May 2024 17:00:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f54.google.com ([209.85.167.54]) by 9front; Wed May 8 10:58:07 -0400 2024 Received: by mail-lf1-f54.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-520f9d559f6so3207839e87.3 for <9front@9front.org>; Wed, 08 May 2024 07:58:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715180281; x=1715785081; darn=9front.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=2AFelhqH/IuDUkzHxd8Or3sqlyBPGpUjmtcuPk1mPwY=; b=RD1GPVRBxv/4K0EyPxHvblBZR07SbbEG1X4mraYEZ6Q2j6cdGg7H/mlqbo/SILif/G CNM8y9Zljyd/Cdsd0WIh5i+ISDJOmEAVrxascXmO7v2lgjhxJmjvyzNl1DN3281OjcnY 1U6v6zHUzL4avgEwT6GOCU4Pvl10SaGrJnEvZO6paAwPJe8cil9MIWqDiCHJgw/7kjbo 6x6nwTojjVDt43l5Oby3X+koYbP3ZmGDOZFfH6maXBEQz7ketyEBDDRHAY1Wea6Nr4Tx D6/W+umrUmiWar58Iv/sbQUvFUmXRK08+gV45MTqLX9hZ8nt0oewy2l+6cxzCfnMFYI+ gLTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715180281; x=1715785081; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=2AFelhqH/IuDUkzHxd8Or3sqlyBPGpUjmtcuPk1mPwY=; b=J0EAwI2kkN246M6ryFNDcsZzMVLz95xBkXBY/0bcpxS4xT7UwfuRhgS4x6F0gGHjL9 7fipSvWwhA0nJJKsQKIuQccfdYGolkNG0O1VWvMnMAYV7n1R5SonaIFFrY1KF8OPtkdG zOVMePdj6Q583hhf7Q+d+VciIxHC61HUhDtVS4Wb83UvySgILnYnk7NJ7RygJ0siF2Px iGOEv1pkZvfXwuYaPVPbZlmw7+ZAqjFHnORy7iYy6ja7gVMTOWJH2P5dPwONVxTuZCJu zLh9dtgZ52z2rjA34qK2uDrsx2JK8olZAvZcDIRK1fQKOvYF/vdC2CGGNG+NXEnQJSZ0 bWlQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyfThIQ+qvKuCe+dbyU0gVV5j46qEdQi8YE5g4g/aRavYPswrw+ gCYlCie9uwQD4jyHi3ULiDdREu8a2GIi2wuw0WcIHuYe6z4IeKj76sPX4mOQgtkSrLDrJRhCle5 qrZC6higz1b75H4joeMzO7pQu2L4xdjuvi80F5A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG8kEVV7oOKR524/Lz9mg1t1GiifqXRt1+Q47V+a2sWVkgttFP/l4BFfRDl2gDk9xNv7rPfNLZl89CShk6M8tk= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:52a9:0:b0:51f:fcaf:e932 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5217c566695mr1758269e87.17.1715180280820; Wed, 08 May 2024 07:58:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8557C94F-E6DF-42BA-B92E-6BBB0751116A@ecloud.org> In-Reply-To: <8557C94F-E6DF-42BA-B92E-6BBB0751116A@ecloud.org> From: Lucas Francesco Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 11:57:36 -0300 Message-ID: To: 9front@9front.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: information HTTP property-based proxy Subject: Re: [9front] Enabling a service Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk > As for "half-assed network services", I assume that means security concer= ns; ok so not enough faith in how secure the services are by default (well = that ought to be fixable eventually?), and not enough faith in users not to= realize that they should try experiments on a local LAN before connecting = the services to the Internet (which usually involves some router work anywa= y, assuming the machine is behind one)? People who take excessive risks ar= e mainly risking their own files; they should know better, but they probabl= y aren=E2=80=99t going to have a lot of files on Plan 9 anyway. What=E2=80= =99s the worst risk besides data theft? A mail server getting used as a sp= am relay or something like that? I agree that setting up a mail server sho= uld be more effort. Yes, we have NO faith in you or any other user whatsoever, making those services even more trivial to set up without understanding would be harmful since there are multiple risks involved and one of them is being a node for a DDoS reflection attack for example. On Wed, 8 May 2024 at 02:22, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > > And yet, the FQA recommends laptops. Usually the assumption with a lapto= p is you can take it on the subway or to the coffee shop and keep working. = That implies that you want to have some relevant files with you. (So it= =E2=80=99s good the default install has a local filesystem.) Then later yo= u get back to the home/office and maybe want to use a machine with a bigger= monitor and more files available, but some work in progress is on the lapt= op so maybe you want to rcpu to it for a while. Eventually files get synce= d up again (manually or automatically). Maybe at home there is a file serv= er, sure it=E2=80=99s good to have the dumps. That=E2=80=99s probably how = I=E2=80=99d use it as soon as I get to the point of depending on Plan 9 for= any particular task, not just trying things. (It reminds me of learning h= ow to use Linux, 30 years ago. It was at a similar level of development ba= ck then.) > > So obviously there=E2=80=99s a tradeoff between 9front being usable by a = laptop user today vs. trying to preserve the labs experience, and having to= answer the same questions over and over (how do I start a service, why do = I have to reboot into a different mode to make that possible). I won=E2=80= =99t ask how to do that; but others will. > > As for "half-assed network services", I assume that means security concer= ns; ok so not enough faith in how secure the services are by default (well = that ought to be fixable eventually?), and not enough faith in users not to= realize that they should try experiments on a local LAN before connecting = the services to the Internet (which usually involves some router work anywa= y, assuming the machine is behind one)? People who take excessive risks ar= e mainly risking their own files; they should know better, but they probabl= y aren=E2=80=99t going to have a lot of files on Plan 9 anyway. What=E2=80= =99s the worst risk besides data theft? A mail server getting used as a sp= am relay or something like that? I agree that setting up a mail server sho= uld be more effort. > > > 9p vs latency is a losing battle. trying to run a diskless terminal > > over the internet really, REALLY sucks. even drawterm is not great > > in this context. > > I left a 9front machine running on my LAN in Norway while I=E2=80=99m in = Phoenix for a while, and set up a wireguard vpn on the openwrt router in No= rway so that I can connect to home. Latency in Phoenix is worse than norma= l (Verizon wireless internet: it's only meant to be temporary). Despite th= at, the performance I see connecting with rcpu or drawterm halfway around t= he world is comparable to connecting to Linux over VNC: not bad for an expe= riment (as long as wifi on 9front is not in the path! ;-) I don=E2=80=99t= expect to play video over that link. But I also have qualms about letting= the router connect 9p over the Internet to that Plan 9 machine, since I do= n=E2=80=99t know yet all the varieties of half-assedness to expect by defau= lt. I think I have to try the Plan 9 network forwarding at some point thou= gh, see if the claim that it=E2=80=99s as good as a VPN really holds up. B= ut I have to learn enough about security before even trying, it seems. >