[9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[Tobias Heinicke]

Hi,

writing from one of my unix boxes hoping that this mail is delivered..

It seems that mails towards the ML now do get lost or maybe it is just 
me (out of order delivery is expected, but afaik no one has reported 
complete losses yet(?))

Anyhow I had send the following mail and it was never delivered (or at 
least I have not received it from the ML):

 From theinicke@bss-wf.de Mon, 21 Jun 2021 19:53:28 +0200
To: 9front@9front.org
Subject: Re: [9front] commit 1a09421f7db897e1d2e2a9210f79ca4389362c3a
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 19:53:28 +0200
From: theinicke@bss-wf.de
In-Reply-To: <YNBLzJoLBatVq6U6@alice>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Quoth Anthony Martin <ality@pbrane.org>:
 > > kencc: clarify warning for unused assignments
 > >
 > > [...]
 > >
 > > - warn(Z, "set and not used: %B", bit);
 > > + warn(Z, "assignment not used: %B", bit);
 >
 > What is unclear about "set and not used"?
 >
 > This looks to me like change for change's sake.
 > Now it's even more tedious to compare the various
 > compiler forks, the symmetry with "used and not
 > set" is gone, and the reference to this specific
 > warning in /sys/doc/comp.ms is stale.
 >
 > For what gain?
 >
 >   Anthony

I totally agree with what Anthony wrote;
also in addition to all of this the change is half-assed:

Just looking at the diff one can see that there is
still the line with the typo "set an not used".

s/set an not used/set and not used/ would have been a
better substitution!

--
Tobias Heinicke

Please feel free to correct me if my assumptions are wrong.

Cheers,
Tobias Heinicke

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 09:05:44PM +0200, Tobias Heinicke wrote:
> Anyhow I had send the following mail and it was never delivered (or at 
> least I have not received it from the ML):

I got this message.
Received: (qmail 75698 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2021 10:59:06 -0700


khm

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[Stanley Lieber]

On June 24, 2021 3:37:43 PM EDT, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 09:05:44PM +0200, Tobias Heinicke wrote:
>> Anyhow I had send the following mail and it was never delivered (or at 
>> least I have not received it from the ML):
>
>I got this message.
>Received: (qmail 75698 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2021 10:59:06 -0700
>
>
>khm
>

me too.

sl

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[ori]

Quoth Stanley Lieber <sl@stanleylieber.com>:
> On June 24, 2021 3:37:43 PM EDT, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
> >On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 09:05:44PM +0200, Tobias Heinicke wrote:
> >> Anyhow I had send the following mail and it was never delivered (or at 
> >> least I have not received it from the ML):
> >
> >I got this message.
> >Received: (qmail 75698 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2021 10:59:06 -0700
> >
> >
> >khm
> >
> 
> me too.
> 
> sl
> 

The mailing list archives are available over 9p.
if you're not sure that a message arrived, you
can check.

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[igor]

Quoth ori@eigenstate.org:
> Quoth Stanley Lieber <sl@stanleylieber.com>:
> > On June 24, 2021 3:37:43 PM EDT, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
> > >On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 09:05:44PM +0200, Tobias Heinicke wrote:
> > >> Anyhow I had send the following mail and it was never delivered (or at 
> > >> least I have not received it from the ML):
> > >
> > >I got this message.
> > >Received: (qmail 75698 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2021 10:59:06 -0700
> > >
> > >
> > >khm
> > >
> > 
> > me too.
> > 
> > sl
> 
> The mailing list archives are available over 9p.
> if you're not sure that a message arrived, you
> can check.

There is also the following web based mailing list
archive:

 • https://inbox.vuxu.org/9front/

…mainly useful if you are on a non Plan9 system
without access to 9p or you want to link to posts
from a web page.

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[Stanley Lieber]

On June 24, 2021 6:46:07 PM EDT, igor@9lab.org wrote:
>Quoth ori@eigenstate.org:
>> Quoth Stanley Lieber <sl@stanleylieber.com>:
>> > On June 24, 2021 3:37:43 PM EDT, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>> > >On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 09:05:44PM +0200, Tobias Heinicke wrote:
>> > >> Anyhow I had send the following mail and it was never delivered (or at 
>> > >> least I have not received it from the ML):
>> > >
>> > >I got this message.
>> > >Received: (qmail 75698 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2021 10:59:06 -0700
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >khm
>> > >
>> > 
>> > me too.
>> > 
>> > sl
>> 
>> The mailing list archives are available over 9p.
>> if you're not sure that a message arrived, you
>> can check.
>
>There is also the following web based mailing list
>archive:
>
> • https://inbox.vuxu.org/9front/
>
>…mainly useful if you are on a non Plan9 system
>without access to 9p or you want to link to posts
>from a web page.
>
>
>
>

I was not aware this existed.

sl

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[theinicke]

Quoth Stanley Lieber <sl@stanleylieber.com>:
> On June 24, 2021 6:46:07 PM EDT, igor@9lab.org wrote:
> >Quoth ori@eigenstate.org:
> >> Quoth Stanley Lieber <sl@stanleylieber.com>:
> >> > On June 24, 2021 3:37:43 PM EDT, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
> >> > >On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 09:05:44PM +0200, Tobias Heinicke wrote:
> >> > >> Anyhow I had send the following mail and it was never delivered (or at 
> >> > >> least I have not received it from the ML):
> >> > >
> >> > >I got this message.
> >> > >Received: (qmail 75698 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2021 10:59:06 -0700
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >khm
> >> > >
> >> > 
> >> > me too.
> >> > 
> >> > sl
> >> 
> >> The mailing list archives are available over 9p.
> >> if you're not sure that a message arrived, you
> >> can check.
> >
> >There is also the following web based mailing list
> >archive:
> >
> > • https://inbox.vuxu.org/9front/
> >
> >…mainly useful if you are on a non Plan9 system
> >without access to 9p or you want to link to posts
> >from a web page.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> I was not aware this existed.
> 
> sl

Thanks for the replies
and sorry for not having looked into the archives.

Then it seems to be the case of mails being delivered
*to* the ml but never *from* it, as I have not received
the mail from Igor you are quoting..

The ones about the vt patch where the last from
igor@9lab.org I got in my inbox.

I always thought out of order delivery was the only
problem, but it seems that at least for me some mails
never get delivered.

Anyone else experiencing those problems?

--
Tobias Heinicke

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[Tobias Heinicke]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1916 bytes --]

Interestingly enough my last mail was not delivered to me (sent with 
acmemail(1)) while the former was - this made me think that my mail 
server may not like something in the header, but comparing
1624575618.00 (which I have not received)
1624544584.00 (which I have received) with each other this does not seem 
to be the case as those mail headers are almost identical..

Anyway this mail is mostly for testing but also if someone experiences 
something similar and has not yet got a better way to find something in 
the archive, I have wrote the attached script for dealing with the archive.

Ex:
Out of the 5 mails the following provided me the only one that I have 
not received is 1624575618.00:

cpu% 9fs 9front.org
cpu% cd /n/9front.org/lists/9front
cpu% mails/find -ds `{seconds '20 Jun 2021'} -de `{seconds '27 Jun 
2021'} 'From: igor@9lab.org'

--
Tobias Heinicke

On 6/25/21 1:29 AM, Stanley Lieber wrote:
> On June 24, 2021 6:46:07 PM EDT, igor@9lab.org wrote:
>> Quoth ori@eigenstate.org:
>>> Quoth Stanley Lieber <sl@stanleylieber.com>:
>>>> On June 24, 2021 3:37:43 PM EDT, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 09:05:44PM +0200, Tobias Heinicke wrote:
>>>>>> Anyhow I had send the following mail and it was never delivered (or at
>>>>>> least I have not received it from the ML):
>>>>>
>>>>> I got this message.
>>>>> Received: (qmail 75698 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2021 10:59:06 -0700
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> khm
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> me too.
>>>>
>>>> sl
>>>
>>> The mailing list archives are available over 9p.
>>> if you're not sure that a message arrived, you
>>> can check.
>>
>> There is also the following web based mailing list
>> archive:
>>
>> • https://inbox.vuxu.org/9front/
>>
>> …mainly useful if you are on a non Plan9 system
>> without access to 9p or you want to link to posts
>>from a web page.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> I was not aware this existed.
> 
> sl
> 

[-- Attachment #2: find --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 639 bytes --]

#!/bin/rc

argv0=$0
fn usage {
	echo usage: $argv0 '[-ds datestart] [-de dateend] searchstr' >[1=2]
	exit 'usage'
}
datestart=()
dateend=()
while(~ $1 -*){
	switch($1){
	case -ds
		datestart=$2
		shift
	case -de
		dateend=$2
		shift
	case * 
		usage
	}
	shift
}
if(! ~ $#* 1)
	usage

searchstr=$"1

ramfs
mkdir /tmp/mails
for(f in `{ls | sort -rn}) {
	date = `{echo $f | sed 's/\.00$//'}
	if(~ $#datestart 0 || test $date -ge $datestart >/dev/null >[2=1]) {
		if(~ $#dateend 0 || test $date -le $dateend >/dev/null >[2=1]) {
			if(grep -i $"searchstr <$"f >/dev/null) {
				aux/stub /tmp/mails/^$f
				bind $f /tmp/mails/^$f
			}
		}
	}
}

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[Stanley Lieber]

On June 25, 2021 1:11:07 AM EDT, theinicke@bss-wf.de wrote:

>I always thought out of order delivery was the only
>problem, but it seems that at least for me some mails
>never get delivered.
>
>Anyone else experiencing those problems?

even though I now preface tcp25 and tcp587 with:

bind /net /net.alt

I still see a lot of:

1ess Jun 25 10:15:09 delivery '/net.alt/dns' does not exist (net!bss-wf.de)

in the logs. this is not just you; many, many delivery attempts end up as similar entries in /sys/log/smtp.fail. I still don't know why this is happening. I'll try to rig some extra logging to see once and for all what is going on.

sl

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 10:22:26AM -0400, Stanley Lieber wrote:
> I still see a lot of:
> 
> 1ess Jun 25 10:15:09 delivery '/net.alt/dns' does not exist (net!bss-wf.de)
> 
> in the logs. this is not just you; many, many delivery attempts end up as similar entries in /sys/log/smtp.fail. I still don't know why this is happening. I'll try to rig some extra logging to see once and for all what is going on.

Which DNS resolver are you querying?  I presume not 9cloud, but I used
to have problems with assholes returning AAAA records that were useless.

khm

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[theinicke]

Just as an update, going to be quite now:

In the meantime both my last mails got delivered to my mailbox
(the aforementioned mails are still in limbo).

Also if someone likes the script, I have changed it to take all
the mail files into account:

#!/bin/rc

argv0=$0
fn usage {
	echo usage: $argv0 '[-ds datestart] [-de dateend] searchstr' >[1=2]
	exit 'usage'
}
datestart=()
dateend=()
while(~ $1 -*){
	switch($1){
	case -ds
		datestart=$2
		shift
	case -de
		dateend=$2
		shift
	case * 
		usage
	}
	shift
}
if(! ~ $#* 1)
	usage

searchstr=$"1

ramfs
mkdir /tmp/mails
for(f in `{ls | sed -n '/^[0-9]+\.[0-9][0-9](\.tmp)?$/p' | sort -rn}) {
	date = `{echo $f | sed 's/\.[0-9][0-9](\.tmp)?$//'}
	if(~ $#datestart 0 || test $date -ge $datestart) {
		if(~ $#dateend 0 || test $date -le $dateend) {
			if(grep -i $"searchstr <$"f >/dev/null) {
				aux/stub /tmp/mails/^$f
				bind $f /tmp/mails/^$f
			}
		}
	}
}

--
Tobias Heinicke

Quoth Tobias Heinicke <theinicke@bss-wf.de>:
> Interestingly enough my last mail was not delivered to me (sent with 
> acmemail(1)) while the former was - this made me think that my mail 
> server may not like something in the header, but comparing
> 1624575618.00 (which I have not received)
> 1624544584.00 (which I have received) with each other this does not seem 
> to be the case as those mail headers are almost identical..
> 
> Anyway this mail is mostly for testing but also if someone experiences 
> something similar and has not yet got a better way to find something in 
> the archive, I have wrote the attached script for dealing with the archive.
> 
> Ex:
> Out of the 5 mails the following provided me the only one that I have 
> not received is 1624575618.00:
> 
> cpu% 9fs 9front.org
> cpu% cd /n/9front.org/lists/9front
> cpu% mails/find -ds `{seconds '20 Jun 2021'} -de `{seconds '27 Jun 
> 2021'} 'From: igor@9lab.org'
> 
> --
> Tobias Heinicke
> 
> On 6/25/21 1:29 AM, Stanley Lieber wrote:
> > On June 24, 2021 6:46:07 PM EDT, igor@9lab.org wrote:
> >> Quoth ori@eigenstate.org:
> >>> Quoth Stanley Lieber <sl@stanleylieber.com>:
> >>>> On June 24, 2021 3:37:43 PM EDT, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 09:05:44PM +0200, Tobias Heinicke wrote:
> >>>>>> Anyhow I had send the following mail and it was never delivered (or at
> >>>>>> least I have not received it from the ML):
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I got this message.
> >>>>> Received: (qmail 75698 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2021 10:59:06 -0700
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> khm
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> me too.
> >>>>
> >>>> sl
> >>>
> >>> The mailing list archives are available over 9p.
> >>> if you're not sure that a message arrived, you
> >>> can check.
> >>
> >> There is also the following web based mailing list
> >> archive:
> >>
> >> • https://inbox.vuxu.org/9front/
> >>
> >> …mainly useful if you are on a non Plan9 system
> >> without access to 9p or you want to link to posts
> >>from a web page.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > 
> > I was not aware this existed.
> > 
> > sl
> > 
> 

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[Stanley Lieber]

On June 25, 2021 2:02:11 PM EDT, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 10:22:26AM -0400, Stanley Lieber wrote:
>> I still see a lot of:
>> 
>> 1ess Jun 25 10:15:09 delivery '/net.alt/dns' does not exist (net!bss-wf.de)
>> 
>> in the logs. this is not just you; many, many delivery attempts end up as similar entries in /sys/log/smtp.fail. I still don't know why this is happening. I'll try to rig some extra logging to see once and for all what is going on.
>
>Which DNS resolver are you querying?  I presume not 9cloud, but I used
>to have problems with assholes returning AAAA records that were useless.
>
>khm
>

we've been seeing similar behavior for a long time. that "'/net.alt/dns' does not exist" error shows up *a lot* in the logs, frequently for hosts that do exist and whose hostnames do resolve on the command line.

a month or so ago, as an experiment, I switched from opendns.org servers to running a local resolver. it goes like this:

# should work with only -n, but doing so breaks domain resolution for the local system
ndb/dns -nrs

and in /lib/ndb/local:

sys=1ess dom=1ess.inri.net
ether=525400099935 ip=216.126.196.35                                                      
ipmask=255.255.255.0                                
ipgw=216.126.196.33                                    
auth=216.126.196.35                                    authdom=yoyodyne                               
#       dns=208.67.222.222                             
#       dns=208.67.220.220                                     
dns=216.126.196.35                                     
mx=1ess.inri.net pref=5                                
txtrr="v=spf1 mx -all"

that said, I'm not entirely sure what goes on between all the little programs involved in mail delivery that access dns, or how to track same.

I also don't understand why /net.alt isn't found, since /net is mounted over /net.alt each time in tcp25 and tcp587 *before* running any mail commands (btw, the listener that runs tcp25 and tcp587 runs as user upas, not as user none).

sl

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[kvik]

The /net.alt error is bogus, it's just the last fail in the fallback list which is why it appears in the error message. That code, IIRC, is in ndb/cs.

25 Jun 2021 22:57:38 Stanley Lieber <sl@stanleylieber.com>:

> On June 25, 2021 1:11:07 AM EDT, theinicke@bss-wf.de wrote:
> 
>> I always thought out of order delivery was the only
>> problem, but it seems that at least for me some mails
>> never get delivered.
>> 
>> Anyone else experiencing those problems?
> 
> even though I now preface tcp25 and tcp587 with:
> 
> bind /net /net.alt
> 
> I still see a lot of:
> 
> 1ess Jun 25 10:15:09 delivery '/net.alt/dns' does not exist (net!bss-wf.de)
> 
> in the logs. this is not just you; many, many delivery attempts end up as similar entries in /sys/log/smtp.fail. I still don't know why this is happening. I'll try to rig some extra logging to see once and for all what is going on.
> 
> sl

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Stanley Lieber wrote in
 <75418F19-3615-43AF-8BBF-532350ED207E@stanleylieber.com>:
 |On June 25, 2021 2:02:11 PM EDT, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
 |>On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 10:22:26AM -0400, Stanley Lieber wrote:
 |>> I still see a lot of:
 |>> 
 |>> 1ess Jun 25 10:15:09 delivery '/net.alt/dns' does not exist (net!bss-wf.\
 |>> de)
 ...
 |>Which DNS resolver are you querying?  I presume not 9cloud, but I used
 |>to have problems with assholes returning AAAA records that were useless.
 ...
 |we've been seeing similar behavior for a long time. that "'/net.alt/dns' \
 |does not exist" error shows up *a lot* in the logs, frequently for \
 |hosts that do exist and whose hostnames do resolve on the command line.

Mind you i have had exactly this problem with my VM hoster's DNS
server that i used exclusively (two of them), ever since i enabled
DNSSEC.  Especially with FreeBSD MX (where using dig goes
"Truncated, retrying in TCP mode").  I first minimized negative
caching, then had to add a reassurance to the blocklist logic
using 8.8.8.8 as an upstream as a hotfix, and i did not understand
because doing a local dig on all the addresses succeeded.  Ie

            # Could be local resolver error, try this first
            if(DEBUG)
               es = 1
            else
               es = system("{ command -v host && \
                     host " j " 8.8.8.8 || \
                     nslookup " j " 8.8.8.8; } >/dev/null 2>&1")
            if(es == 0){
               unign[j] = 1

After logging for weeks they said some query flag combinations
seem to trigger bind bugs, and gave me an additional powerdns
based upstream server (which, funnily, results in errors with
dnsbl.sorbs.net rbl's, but not spamhaus).  However, with these two
different upstream servers (for local dnsmasq cache) i now run
smooth again.  (I still have FreeBSD MX in /etc/hosts on the VM
thougħ.)

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[cinap_lenrek]

i just reverted it also fixing the typos for "set an not used".

i didnt realize that this change was already commited and
i never saw the initial submission on the mailinglist for it.

--
cinap

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[Stanley Lieber]

quite mysteriously, queue pressure is much reduced the past few days.

sl

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[ori]

Quoth Stanley Lieber <sl@stanleylieber.com>:
> quite mysteriously, queue pressure is much reduced the past few days.
> 
> sl
> 

Yeah. I was going to mention that the list seemed to be
doing better.

Re: [9front] Mailing list mails completely lost?

[hiro]

On 7/25/21, Stanley Lieber <sl@stanleylieber.com> wrote:
> quite mysteriously, queue pressure is much reduced the past few days.
>
> sl
>
>

uhu?
"Delivered after 8789 seconds"