From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <9front-bounces@9front.inri.net> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from 9front.inri.net (9front.inri.net [168.235.81.73]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15333217B6 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2024 13:49:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-oa1-f43.google.com ([209.85.160.43]) by 9front; Wed Aug 7 07:47:50 -0400 2024 Received: by mail-oa1-f43.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2610c095ea1so264908fac.3 for <9front@9front.org>; Wed, 07 Aug 2024 04:47:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1723031269; x=1723636069; darn=9front.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cOos9anIWxq9PGLfZTjlqGs2QC9jZxAM5nvJkB3vXfY=; b=mV937q5sP6uaE/pHFr4ArYvl3YwecWqHL+l5DqCfPnJJsrTVG4fj5BUha9WLeGKVI5 1fdMZ3MYIuJZU9/w3lgKtY7TXL3IUyzp1XpltTxGzeW7Q8puhT5jBvR3xwlhMQHxsvDD qLB6xFO/oUZb8p1R5BiAxA4FrPsCU0Qd2dZB+asGvaC/rmbRRH0cY0VGXYRyHdSDpKtz xEwhrro9I89uAHxJldGzHuPIwk3pTGu+cvUv8dQIG3oVJMr3G4BFuFRrhwIP8m48TyPC R2eirUFd5wjwPvJ+bfEYbodxXnszDx6EQ3u+RrkoBZ6SerJ4cnIbW26QiIvHK6o3gGup O0vw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1723031269; x=1723636069; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cOos9anIWxq9PGLfZTjlqGs2QC9jZxAM5nvJkB3vXfY=; b=QtgiDkgAEQafoMpf1vKzKCTAW1nyibyyFLpu9dxAwNCDaQuJoIM8yim4AcDFgRetLw gVKq7hWRw+qTDm32trtQmqlv909nBdTuMKsnH+p5Lvyy1P8BXHxzjU+N0cIIEPsOQFd5 1eA1wfClQzmVJw4tbLAxOeapsXzgCqKdX1RZSdoDxlj1wKYjNMGBKssx1WkXTs5g8syc 71gccPGZNLX57T1UqqoTGSUCKb5LL+uwjyr/EyhK7EuAvJbmPVdNECwEN1HYxPZEzWFD EpXi9TLAesRoGo1BVXolAOpsgg3nNb4pr3K1JYpjZnLMBdeQyu+IG66fcmOZccSlrVSA TIJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwIxxraQ3logjZ5mkkZY938zT622OiOU0PeD4gPz6/63cZB8Eg4 tCToBdRJgMA3P7L7xvv5dhp1/xkrzPs8iVjgRbHsTsE/Mi3Q1yKO12gGtd4EP6bD6bQKVgM+wLa rPFVQso1zJDSYRnsjGCamr9V35tWI/hgGo1B3OQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHLijS6xjvdsAlA/FfXaue0MdCU1GxMXF92Khb9JgISVv3EZTPBYJRtjh85z9hnolH4ZQ6xyAofEeOcnyQTOrQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:eca8:b0:258:476d:a781 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-26891b1d3d7mr11195938fac.3.1723031268891; Wed, 07 Aug 2024 04:47:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6FB99C7720140A4B3969EA601A4B3588@eigenstate.org> <20240805115126.rm47l4ifx7rrwgtx@black> In-Reply-To: From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 13:47:39 +0200 Message-ID: To: 9front@9front.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: content-addressed package-based event-oriented control Subject: Re: [9front] Thoughts on Wayland? Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk > However if you resize the resulting image, e.g. using a scaling monitor, > or resizing a screen-grab the result will most probably look vile; covered > in extra fringes or echos around letters (spacial alias) It will still look like vile whether you antialiased once at the beginning or not. Because every time you resample you have to do it again. And it only gets worse each time. Personally I found I have to turn off scaling in my monitor and use it's native resolution, anything else is unusable. If displayport cables had infinite bandwidth, i'd be like you and render everything at a *higher* than native resolution and make the monitor downsample. that would also be the day i start using antialiasing even on fonts and start scaling each viewport (separately) up and down as I please. Sadly that is not possible, so I'm saving bandwidth which happens to also increase link reliability: i continue to let my gpu output my monitor's native resolution. it's a good sweet spot. The goal should always be to avoid resampling, or to only downsample once, with Lanczos, as near to the monitor as possible. Sadly this means we have to render at the correct DPI already on the application layer, and demand that nothing else afterwards resamples our outputs. This makes the application more complicated. But I see no valid way around it. And don't think I don't regret the many downsides: For example, on the UI side what also would help is to make it easy to snap back to the original resolution and make it easy to pan the image with a very low end-user delay. Hard with the current designs, you'd need to first make your own devdraw scaling monitor for this, and then offload zooming from page (our image/pdf viewer) into devdraw itself. that's a slippery slope though, cause next you'll ask for html and pdf rendering inside devdraw, else you'd have to render at a very high and wasteful resolution bec. for quality results you want to only downsample, never upsample. Harder to find the sweet spot here, but I'm sure there's one, if you care enough ;) with modern systems the assumption seems to be that everything needs to be resampled 5 times. the result hurts my brain. And they still require GPUs for the other parts of the programs regardless, they are just not used for anything useful but animations, video codecs, website ads with crypto-miners, and 3D games. If we can make a devdraw scaling monitor, it should support Lanczos resampling which includes anti-aliasing, and support for common lossy image codecs (instead of lz77). Then we can avoid the worst-case scenario where we decode a lossy image and then upsample it to various wasteful resolutions as we keep zooming in, which only gets slower and slower at each iteration, infuriating the user. Tried zooming in on a screenshare in a modern mainstream app? It also feels like that. about interlacing: thankfully that's not a common VGA mode. bec. all modern software sucks, my favourite resolution remains 1600x1200 and 60Hz is enough for my light mousing around. i never need to upsample cause of my superior low resolution. and i'm quite sure that my eyesight will degrade faster than software development efforts are bearing fruits.