[9front] Re: Need help explaining mouse gone crazy: HP DY651A/M-U0013-O

[9front] Re: Need help explaining mouse gone crazy: HP DY651A/M-U0013-O

[magma698hfsp273p9f]

I have a couple of HP M-U0013-O USB optical mice which have recently
began generating phantom mouse clicks.  I'm at a complete loss for
figuring out what's going on, here.

Based on the recommended hardware list on the Plan 9 Wiki (back when it
was still live), I bought a Hewlett Packard DY651A USB optical mouse.
Knowing that everything eventually breaks, I actually ordered two of
them, so I would have one as a "critical spare" to swap-in when/if the
first mouse ever failed.  The mice which I received were actually model
M-U0013-O, not DY651A, but they appeared the same as the DY651A.  I had
been using the M-U0013-O regularly, for about 13 years, without any
problems, since I bought the pair of mice in 2011.

Then, just a couple of months ago, one of the M-U0013-O began generating
spurious button-1 clicks.  When I pressed down button-1, the mouse would
behave as if I was pressing and releasing button-1 in rapid succession.
It was kind of like the mouse somehow switched from semi-automatic to
full automatic fire.  :) But it didn't happen with buttons 2 or 3, just
button 1.  Since the mouse was more than a decade old, and button 1 is
used more than buttons 2 or 3, I figured some metal part (maybe a spring
or switch) had fatigued.  The malfunction appeared to be classic switch
bouncing, so I swapped out the first M-U0013-O for the "critical spare"
M-U0013-O.  To my amazement, the second M-U0013-O exhibited the same
exact behavior (phantom rapid-fire button-1 clicks) despite the fact
that it had been sitting, unused, in a box for 13 years.

The strange thing is how intermittent the malfunctions are.  Sometimes
button-1 works fine.  Other times, it acts like someone secretly slipped
an autosear into the mouse.  It happens whether the mouse is connected
to a desktop or to a laptop.  It happens at home, and away from home.
It also happens when I use the laptop in a completely different town.
When there is RFI on a USB cable, the Linux kernel's USB driver will
often generate errors, but I wasn't receiving any of those error
messages.  There aren't any cell towers near my house.  There is a cell
site hidden in the steeple of a nearby church, but that's been there for
decades, and there's no way it could possibly affect my mouse when I'm
two towns away.  Although they are easily hidden, I'm not aware of any
5G antennae in the area which have gone up in the past couple of months.
Both my next-door neighbor and I are ham radio operators.  But, like the
cell site, that couldn't cause these problems when I'm out of town.  I
never carry a cell phone, smartwatch, or even any devices that use
Bluetooth.  The only wireless charger I use (for my toothbrush) sits at
home, next to the sink.  I've even checked the "spaceweather."  These
phantom clicks occur even when the spaceweather is clear: no solar
flares or geomagnetic storms.

Yes, I'm sure I'm using the mouse correctly, just the same as I have for
the past decade.  This is not user error!  I don't have parkinsons,
seizures, or a pacemaker.  I'm not sneezing while I click.  I'm not
shivering from cold or trembling in fear.  I'm quite certain I'm not
hallucinating the spurious clicks, either.  I'm just completely baffled.

The thought of "planned obsolesence" came to mind... both mice might
have been designed to fail after a certain period of time after their
manufacture.  But one of them went completely unused (and, thus, unworn)
that whole time.  Even if the failure were pre-programmed in firmware,
there's no way the spare mouse could possibly know what year it is,
because the USB HID protocol doesn't report that information to mice.
It's also highly unlikely that anyone could have sabotaged the mice.  I
keep tight physical control over my hardware and... more realistically,
why would anyone pull such a BIZARRE prank?  I have made no changes to
either hardware or software during the past couple of months, when the
strange behavior began.

NOTE: This is a hardware issue, not a software issue.  The mice in
question are Plan 9 mice being used on Linux.  This has nothing to do
with Acme, nusb, etc.  I'm posting here (on the 9front list) because
these mice were on the Plan 9 recommended hardware list:

  https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html

As recommended Plan 9 hardware, it's likely that others on this list
will have the same mouse, and may be experiencing (or have experienced)
the same bizarre behavior.

Has anyone here experienced this problem with the HP DY651A or M-U0013-O
mice?  Any idea what could be causing these mice to hallucinate mouse
clicks?

Re: [9front] Re: Need help explaining mouse gone crazy: HP DY651A/M-U0013-O

[qwx]

On Mon Mar 10 20:49:01 +0100 2025, magma698hfsp273p9f@icebubble.org wrote:
> I have a couple of HP M-U0013-O USB optical mice which have recently
> began generating phantom mouse clicks.  I'm at a complete loss for
> figuring out what's going on, here.

Have you tried thoroughly cleaning the mice?

qwx

> Based on the recommended hardware list on the Plan 9 Wiki (back when it
> was still live), I bought a Hewlett Packard DY651A USB optical mouse.
> Knowing that everything eventually breaks, I actually ordered two of
> them, so I would have one as a "critical spare" to swap-in when/if the
> first mouse ever failed.  The mice which I received were actually model
> M-U0013-O, not DY651A, but they appeared the same as the DY651A.  I had
> been using the M-U0013-O regularly, for about 13 years, without any
> problems, since I bought the pair of mice in 2011.
> 
> Then, just a couple of months ago, one of the M-U0013-O began generating
> spurious button-1 clicks.  When I pressed down button-1, the mouse would
> behave as if I was pressing and releasing button-1 in rapid succession.
> It was kind of like the mouse somehow switched from semi-automatic to
> full automatic fire.  :) But it didn't happen with buttons 2 or 3, just
> button 1.  Since the mouse was more than a decade old, and button 1 is
> used more than buttons 2 or 3, I figured some metal part (maybe a spring
> or switch) had fatigued.  The malfunction appeared to be classic switch
> bouncing, so I swapped out the first M-U0013-O for the "critical spare"
> M-U0013-O.  To my amazement, the second M-U0013-O exhibited the same
> exact behavior (phantom rapid-fire button-1 clicks) despite the fact
> that it had been sitting, unused, in a box for 13 years.
> 
> The strange thing is how intermittent the malfunctions are.  Sometimes
> button-1 works fine.  Other times, it acts like someone secretly slipped
> an autosear into the mouse.  It happens whether the mouse is connected
> to a desktop or to a laptop.  It happens at home, and away from home.
> It also happens when I use the laptop in a completely different town.
> When there is RFI on a USB cable, the Linux kernel's USB driver will
> often generate errors, but I wasn't receiving any of those error
> messages.  There aren't any cell towers near my house.  There is a cell
> site hidden in the steeple of a nearby church, but that's been there for
> decades, and there's no way it could possibly affect my mouse when I'm
> two towns away.  Although they are easily hidden, I'm not aware of any
> 5G antennae in the area which have gone up in the past couple of months.
> Both my next-door neighbor and I are ham radio operators.  But, like the
> cell site, that couldn't cause these problems when I'm out of town.  I
> never carry a cell phone, smartwatch, or even any devices that use
> Bluetooth.  The only wireless charger I use (for my toothbrush) sits at
> home, next to the sink.  I've even checked the "spaceweather."  These
> phantom clicks occur even when the spaceweather is clear: no solar
> flares or geomagnetic storms.
> 
> Yes, I'm sure I'm using the mouse correctly, just the same as I have for
> the past decade.  This is not user error!  I don't have parkinsons,
> seizures, or a pacemaker.  I'm not sneezing while I click.  I'm not
> shivering from cold or trembling in fear.  I'm quite certain I'm not
> hallucinating the spurious clicks, either.  I'm just completely baffled.
> 
> The thought of "planned obsolesence" came to mind... both mice might
> have been designed to fail after a certain period of time after their
> manufacture.  But one of them went completely unused (and, thus, unworn)
> that whole time.  Even if the failure were pre-programmed in firmware,
> there's no way the spare mouse could possibly know what year it is,
> because the USB HID protocol doesn't report that information to mice.
> It's also highly unlikely that anyone could have sabotaged the mice.  I
> keep tight physical control over my hardware and... more realistically,
> why would anyone pull such a BIZARRE prank?  I have made no changes to
> either hardware or software during the past couple of months, when the
> strange behavior began.
> 
> NOTE: This is a hardware issue, not a software issue.  The mice in
> question are Plan 9 mice being used on Linux.  This has nothing to do
> with Acme, nusb, etc.  I'm posting here (on the 9front list) because
> these mice were on the Plan 9 recommended hardware list:
> 
>   https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html
> 
> As recommended Plan 9 hardware, it's likely that others on this list
> will have the same mouse, and may be experiencing (or have experienced)
> the same bizarre behavior.
> 
> Has anyone here experienced this problem with the HP DY651A or M-U0013-O
> mice?  Any idea what could be causing these mice to hallucinate mouse
> clicks?

Re: [9front] Re: Need help explaining mouse gone crazy: HP DY651A/M-U0013-O

[ori]

What does your protocol analyzer say when you monitor the bus?

Quoth magma698hfsp273p9f@icebubble.org:
> I have a couple of HP M-U0013-O USB optical mice which have recently
> began generating phantom mouse clicks.  I'm at a complete loss for
> figuring out what's going on, here.
> 
> Based on the recommended hardware list on the Plan 9 Wiki (back when it
> was still live), I bought a Hewlett Packard DY651A USB optical mouse.
> Knowing that everything eventually breaks, I actually ordered two of
> them, so I would have one as a "critical spare" to swap-in when/if the
> first mouse ever failed.  The mice which I received were actually model
> M-U0013-O, not DY651A, but they appeared the same as the DY651A.  I had
> been using the M-U0013-O regularly, for about 13 years, without any
> problems, since I bought the pair of mice in 2011.
> 
> Then, just a couple of months ago, one of the M-U0013-O began generating
> spurious button-1 clicks.  When I pressed down button-1, the mouse would
> behave as if I was pressing and releasing button-1 in rapid succession.
> It was kind of like the mouse somehow switched from semi-automatic to
> full automatic fire.  :) But it didn't happen with buttons 2 or 3, just
> button 1.  Since the mouse was more than a decade old, and button 1 is
> used more than buttons 2 or 3, I figured some metal part (maybe a spring
> or switch) had fatigued.  The malfunction appeared to be classic switch
> bouncing, so I swapped out the first M-U0013-O for the "critical spare"
> M-U0013-O.  To my amazement, the second M-U0013-O exhibited the same
> exact behavior (phantom rapid-fire button-1 clicks) despite the fact
> that it had been sitting, unused, in a box for 13 years.
> 
> The strange thing is how intermittent the malfunctions are.  Sometimes
> button-1 works fine.  Other times, it acts like someone secretly slipped
> an autosear into the mouse.  It happens whether the mouse is connected
> to a desktop or to a laptop.  It happens at home, and away from home.
> It also happens when I use the laptop in a completely different town.
> When there is RFI on a USB cable, the Linux kernel's USB driver will
> often generate errors, but I wasn't receiving any of those error
> messages.  There aren't any cell towers near my house.  There is a cell
> site hidden in the steeple of a nearby church, but that's been there for
> decades, and there's no way it could possibly affect my mouse when I'm
> two towns away.  Although they are easily hidden, I'm not aware of any
> 5G antennae in the area which have gone up in the past couple of months.
> Both my next-door neighbor and I are ham radio operators.  But, like the
> cell site, that couldn't cause these problems when I'm out of town.  I
> never carry a cell phone, smartwatch, or even any devices that use
> Bluetooth.  The only wireless charger I use (for my toothbrush) sits at
> home, next to the sink.  I've even checked the "spaceweather."  These
> phantom clicks occur even when the spaceweather is clear: no solar
> flares or geomagnetic storms.
> 
> Yes, I'm sure I'm using the mouse correctly, just the same as I have for
> the past decade.  This is not user error!  I don't have parkinsons,
> seizures, or a pacemaker.  I'm not sneezing while I click.  I'm not
> shivering from cold or trembling in fear.  I'm quite certain I'm not
> hallucinating the spurious clicks, either.  I'm just completely baffled.
> 
> The thought of "planned obsolesence" came to mind... both mice might
> have been designed to fail after a certain period of time after their
> manufacture.  But one of them went completely unused (and, thus, unworn)
> that whole time.  Even if the failure were pre-programmed in firmware,
> there's no way the spare mouse could possibly know what year it is,
> because the USB HID protocol doesn't report that information to mice.
> It's also highly unlikely that anyone could have sabotaged the mice.  I
> keep tight physical control over my hardware and... more realistically,
> why would anyone pull such a BIZARRE prank?  I have made no changes to
> either hardware or software during the past couple of months, when the
> strange behavior began.
> 
> NOTE: This is a hardware issue, not a software issue.  The mice in
> question are Plan 9 mice being used on Linux.  This has nothing to do
> with Acme, nusb, etc.  I'm posting here (on the 9front list) because
> these mice were on the Plan 9 recommended hardware list:
> 
>   https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html
> 
> As recommended Plan 9 hardware, it's likely that others on this list
> will have the same mouse, and may be experiencing (or have experienced)
> the same bizarre behavior.
> 
> Has anyone here experienced this problem with the HP DY651A or M-U0013-O
> mice?  Any idea what could be causing these mice to hallucinate mouse
> clicks?

Re: [9front] Re: Need help explaining mouse gone crazy: HP DY651A/M-U0013-O

[Dan Cross]

On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 3:51 PM <magma698hfsp273p9f@icebubble.org> wrote:
> I have a couple of HP M-U0013-O USB optical mice which have recently
> began generating phantom mouse clicks.  I'm at a complete loss for
> figuring out what's going on, here.

Based on what you describe, my guess is that, internally, the mouse
uses an RC circuit with an electrolytic capacitor for debouncing, and
the cap is hitting the end of its service lifetime. That would explain
why both are exhibiting similar symptoms despite only one having been
used.

        - Dan C.

[9front] Re: Need help explaining mouse gone crazy: HP DY651A/M-U0013-O

[magma698hfsp273p9f]

qwx@sciops.net writes:

> Have you tried thoroughly cleaning the mice?

Hm.  I suppose something inside could be growing mold.  It's worth a
try.

From: ori@eigenstate.org

> What does your protocol analyzer say when you monitor the bus?

I would LOVE if I had a protocol analyzer.  Any idea where I can get
one?  (Or how to build one?)

Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> writes:

> Based on what you describe, my guess is that, internally, the mouse
> uses an RC circuit with an electrolytic capacitor for debouncing, and
> the cap is hitting the end of its service lifetime. That would explain
> why both are exhibiting similar symptoms despite only one having been
> used.

Brilliant!  That's the most plausible explanation I've seen, so far.
That's something I can test and, if necessary, fix.  (And, while I have
the mouse open, qwx, I can check if any mushrooms are growing inside.)

Re: [9front] Re: Need help explaining mouse gone crazy: HP DY651A/M-U0013-O

[Thaddeus Woskowiak]

I would also suspect a debounce cap. Though I would also check for
cracked solder joints given a mouse sees a lot of movement and
possibly abuse. Cap could be fine but solder cracked and lead is
floating. Seen that on a DC coupler cap in an audio EQ I have after
the left channel went dead.

You'd be surprised how many counts a counter circuit will register
from a little PCB mounted button with no debounce. Ive seen tens of
presses, 20-30+,  from what felt like a few millisecond tap.

On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 9:31 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 3:51 PM <magma698hfsp273p9f@icebubble.org> wrote:
> > I have a couple of HP M-U0013-O USB optical mice which have recently
> > began generating phantom mouse clicks.  I'm at a complete loss for
> > figuring out what's going on, here.
>
> Based on what you describe, my guess is that, internally, the mouse
> uses an RC circuit with an electrolytic capacitor for debouncing, and
> the cap is hitting the end of its service lifetime. That would explain
> why both are exhibiting similar symptoms despite only one having been
> used.
>
>         - Dan C.