From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <9front-bounces@9front.inri.net> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from 9front.inri.net (9front.inri.net [168.235.81.73]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E9121376 for ; Wed, 8 May 2024 02:36:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wopr.sciops.net ([216.126.196.60]) by 9front; Tue May 7 20:34:42 -0400 2024 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sciops.net; s=20210706; t=1715128451; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Tz75rPfEmvX94WlChybK0kROeL4xJMyRmPeBiPkHzLg=; b=bcH2zHLqdUDs9725Wy4DDYnL12QqUU6W1PmCAciwHhuAoIkyXmenhsgUFBf5NxEDlVNj9J YlAxyYcuPx/78bgVh7OyjBcRKW4kknLIOYPPftAr45x8GU1fcttqvysqT0GwDJLNFk19s3 1qcLU5FrsyArftfVCIzSNoyc7hWMlUU= Received: from localhost (wopr.sciops.net [local]) by wopr.sciops.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id f887009d for <9front@9front.org>; Tue, 7 May 2024 17:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 17:34:11 -0700 From: Kurt H Maier To: 9front@9front.org Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: 9front@9front.org References: <8557C94F-E6DF-42BA-B92E-6BBB0751116A@ecloud.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <8557C94F-E6DF-42BA-B92E-6BBB0751116A@ecloud.org> List-ID: <9front.9front.org> List-Help: X-Glyph: ➈ X-Bullshit: NoSQL DOM storage-oriented frontend Subject: Re: [9front] Enabling a service Reply-To: 9front@9front.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, May 07, 2024 at 04:16:05PM -0700, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > And yet, the FQA recommends laptops. Laptops work great diskless. We recommend them because they're readily available and cheap, not because we're implying a fucking deployment scenario involving mass transit. > As for "half-assed network services", I assume that means security > concerns; ok so not enough faith in how secure the services are by > default (well that ought to be fixable eventually?), and not enough > faith in users not to realize that they should try experiments on a > local LAN before connecting the services to the Internet (which > usually involves some router work anyway, assuming the machine is > behind one)? People who take excessive risks are mainly risking > their own files; they should know better, but they probably aren’t > going to have a lot of files on Plan 9 anyway. What’s the worst > risk besides data theft? A mail server getting used as a spam > relay or something like that? I agree that setting up a mail server > should be more effort. I have NO faith in users WHATSOEVER. If users were worth having faith in, my entire job category would not exist. And a popped box anywhere is a hazard everywhere. It doesn't matter whether you set it up as a mail service; it will become one despite your wishes shortly after whoever breaks into it feels it worthwhile. This "I'm only risking my computer" shit went out the window in the 1980s. Anyone who thinks that hasn't been on the wrong end of a DDoS. And as for faith in the services: there is no software that is so good it is secure in the hands of an incompetent. > But I have to learn enough about security before even trying, it seems. Not just you. I don't want people putting 9front systems online without understanding them. If that means you never get around to putting 9front systems online, it is no great loss, to you or anyone else. The barriers to what you want to do are extremely low, and instead of learning to overcome them you are asking other people to change the default installation of the entire distribution. This is the kind of shit that leads to "do not eat" warnings on silica packets. Meanwhile, we start lowering the bar, and we get people in here mad that their 9front doesn't act exactly like their ubuntu, or mad that someone put a 9front on their hypervisor and it started bogarting cycles from the other clients with the furious rate it was posting dick pill advertisements on similarly low-barrier Wordpress installations someone installed and forgot about. I just don't think "do it for me" is the clientele we should be pursuing at this time. That's Cloudron's target market. khm