* [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary @ 2022-07-08 17:49 Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 19:24 ` michael.grunditz 2022-07-08 20:28 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Larkin Nickle @ 2022-07-08 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front I'd like to be able to disconnect from drawterm session and pick up where I left off. In an ideal world, I'd be able to switch between graphical sessions on the fly and have sessions running in the background like one can on unix ttys with tmux and with a simple enough interface. I'm pledging 200 USD for this. Thanks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 17:49 [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary Larkin Nickle @ 2022-07-08 19:24 ` michael.grunditz 2022-07-08 19:33 ` Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 20:28 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: michael.grunditz @ 2022-07-08 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front Quoth Larkin Nickle <me@larbob.org>: > I'd like to be able to disconnect from drawterm session and pick up > where I left off. In an ideal world, I'd be able to switch between > graphical sessions on the fly and have sessions running in the > background like one can on unix ttys with tmux and with a simple enough > interface. I'm pledging 200 USD for this. Thanks. I use multiple vncs sessions for this. It works quite well and I don't need to port drawterm to all niche platforms I use. Michael ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 19:24 ` michael.grunditz @ 2022-07-08 19:33 ` Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 19:40 ` Stanley Lieber 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Larkin Nickle @ 2022-07-08 19:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front On 7/8/22 15:24, michael.grunditz@gmail.com wrote: > Quoth Larkin Nickle <me@larbob.org>: >> I'd like to be able to disconnect from drawterm session and pick up >> where I left off. In an ideal world, I'd be able to switch between >> graphical sessions on the fly and have sessions running in the >> background like one can on unix ttys with tmux and with a simple enough >> interface. I'm pledging 200 USD for this. Thanks. > > I use multiple vncs sessions for this. It works quite > well and I don't need to port drawterm to all niche > platforms I use. > > Michael Yep, things like Xpra or VNC or whatever to another machine work for now, but a native solution would be much nicer in my opinion. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 19:33 ` Larkin Nickle @ 2022-07-08 19:40 ` Stanley Lieber 2022-07-08 19:46 ` Kurt H Maier 2022-07-08 19:51 ` mkf9 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Stanley Lieber @ 2022-07-08 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front On July 8, 2022 3:33:24 PM EDT, Larkin Nickle <me@larbob.org> wrote: >On 7/8/22 15:24, michael.grunditz@gmail.com wrote: >> Quoth Larkin Nickle <me@larbob.org>: >>> I'd like to be able to disconnect from drawterm session and pick up >>> where I left off. In an ideal world, I'd be able to switch between >>> graphical sessions on the fly and have sessions running in the >>> background like one can on unix ttys with tmux and with a simple enough >>> interface. I'm pledging 200 USD for this. Thanks. >> >> I use multiple vncs sessions for this. It works quite >> well and I don't need to port drawterm to all niche >> platforms I use. >> >> Michael > >Yep, things like Xpra or VNC or whatever to another machine work for now, but a native solution would be much nicer in my opinion. > why? vnc gives you everything but /mnt/term/, even shared snarf buffer. sl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 19:40 ` Stanley Lieber @ 2022-07-08 19:46 ` Kurt H Maier 2022-07-08 19:51 ` mkf9 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Kurt H Maier @ 2022-07-08 19:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 03:40:59PM -0400, Stanley Lieber wrote: > why? Well, > vnc gives you everything but /mnt/term/, even shared snarf buffer. and I want /mnt/term. khm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 19:40 ` Stanley Lieber 2022-07-08 19:46 ` Kurt H Maier @ 2022-07-08 19:51 ` mkf9 2022-07-08 20:05 ` Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 20:11 ` Stanley Lieber 1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: mkf9 @ 2022-07-08 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front > > why? > > vnc gives you everything but /mnt/term/, even shared snarf buffer. > > sl > also no audio, os command, ann and worse performance compered to drawterm in poor connections. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 19:51 ` mkf9 @ 2022-07-08 20:05 ` Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 20:11 ` Stanley Lieber 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Larkin Nickle @ 2022-07-08 20:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front Audio, performance, /mnt/term, convenience. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 19:51 ` mkf9 2022-07-08 20:05 ` Larkin Nickle @ 2022-07-08 20:11 ` Stanley Lieber 2022-07-08 20:15 ` mkf9 2022-07-08 20:24 ` Larkin Nickle 1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Stanley Lieber @ 2022-07-08 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front On July 8, 2022 3:51:09 PM EDT, mkf9 <mkf9@riseup.net> wrote: >> >> why? >> >> vnc gives you everything but /mnt/term/, even shared snarf buffer. >> >> sl >> > >also no audio, os command, ann and worse performance compered to drawterm in poor connections. > my experience with poor connections has been the opposite, especially with stuff like webfs and mothra. for some reason I thought our vnc supported audio (obviously, I've never tried to use it). /mnt/term is a sticking point, I guess. sl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 20:11 ` Stanley Lieber @ 2022-07-08 20:15 ` mkf9 2022-07-08 20:24 ` Larkin Nickle 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: mkf9 @ 2022-07-08 20:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front > my experience with poor connections has been the opposite, especially with stuff like webfs and mothra. > how it's affects drawterm's performance? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 20:11 ` Stanley Lieber 2022-07-08 20:15 ` mkf9 @ 2022-07-08 20:24 ` Larkin Nickle 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Larkin Nickle @ 2022-07-08 20:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front > my experience with poor connections has been the opposite, especially with stuff like webfs and mothra. Fair enough, but from my experience I prefer drawterm. > > for some reason I thought our vnc supported audio (obviously, I've never tried to use it). Don't see anything about it in the man page, but maybe. Regardless, /mnt/term would be very nice as well. > > /mnt/term is a sticking point, I guess. Yep. Also, if I'm using someone else's box, it might be bad etiquette to start spawning vnc servers (for example sdf 9 bootcamp server, which is genuinely multiuser). And less seriously, I just think this would be cool. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 17:49 [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 19:24 ` michael.grunditz @ 2022-07-08 20:28 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak 2022-07-08 20:51 ` hiro ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Thaddeus Woskowiak @ 2022-07-08 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front How would open fd's to files and binds to things in /mnt/term be handled on reconnect on a different machine with a different /mnt/term? Maybe fixing vnc audio is a better bounty for now. On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 1:50 PM Larkin Nickle <me@larbob.org> wrote: > > I'd like to be able to disconnect from drawterm session and pick up > where I left off. In an ideal world, I'd be able to switch between > graphical sessions on the fly and have sessions running in the > background like one can on unix ttys with tmux and with a simple enough > interface. I'm pledging 200 USD for this. Thanks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 20:28 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak @ 2022-07-08 20:51 ` hiro 2022-07-10 10:46 ` Philip Silva 2022-07-08 21:04 ` Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 21:11 ` mkf9 2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2022-07-08 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front On 7/8/22, Thaddeus Woskowiak <tswoskowiak@gmail.com> wrote: > How would open fd's to files and binds to things in /mnt/term be > handled on reconnect on a different machine with a different > /mnt/term? that's a great question. i never noticed this problem. the things that are always required from /mnt/term/dev (kbd, mouse, draw) have to be handled specifically. i made a prototype for that once. most of the work went to draw as the OP seems to also be aware of :) about the performance discussion: i agree that mothra sucks over drawterm, that's because huge uncompressed images are being transferred over 9p in relatively small chunks without any form of streaming/pre-fetching, so it becomes latency-bottlenecked. otoh: if you mostly have text rio/sam windows open and no modern multimedia stuff (no pdf, no images/mothra), drawterm saves a lot of *bandwidth*. i've been using it on 64kbit and 128kbit connections and as long as your latency is alright (over LTE i had 30ms to my 9front vps in france), it's super snappy. if you do all the work required for the draw detach, then you can kick out draw clients that cannot keep up with the draw updates, effectively limiting their outstanding draw RPCs, and then batch everything like in the reconnect-attach process, effectively removing latency-bottlenecks, in other words, the clients become asynchronous and thus the main draw can continue much faster (being local, network delay wouldn't effect draw anymore). you could also micro-manage this, compress all uncompressed Dimages before syncing to the clients, and even more involved: only transmit differences after re-attach. also, i'd prefer if mothra and page didn't decode jpegs and instead devdraw got support for that compression format. i have a prototype that's super hacky, i didn't really want to go on before we have a good generalized streaming solution e.g. for something simple like distributed pipes. and the compression part is too hard for me, too :D also thought burnzez would report back his findings after he tested my prototype. but i guess it was too hacky :D now that there's clear interest expressed in true currency values i might think about cleaning it up and finding other non-9p-layer workarounds for speeding up streaming for my few specific cases. i'll not do the compression or other crazy ideas i described above though. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 20:51 ` hiro @ 2022-07-10 10:46 ` Philip Silva 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Philip Silva @ 2022-07-10 10:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front > also, i'd prefer if mothra and page didn't decode jpegs and instead > devdraw got support for that compression format. > > i have a prototype that's super hacky, i didn't really want to go on > before we have a good generalized streaming solution e.g. for > something simple like distributed pipes. > and the compression part is too hard for me, too :D Can I try the prototype? :D I've already been trying to get a VPS as close as possible for lower latency but it's still not as fast like on a local network ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 20:28 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak 2022-07-08 20:51 ` hiro @ 2022-07-08 21:04 ` Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 21:11 ` mkf9 2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Larkin Nickle @ 2022-07-08 21:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front On 2022-07-08 16:28, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote: > How would open fd's to files and binds to things in /mnt/term be > handled on reconnect on a different machine with a different > /mnt/term? > > Maybe fixing vnc audio is a better bounty for now. > Maybe fair, but I'll stick to my bounty as I'd have more of a use for it. In terms of the filesystem, for my own uses, I'd be fine with just expecting the user to not have anything open from the terminal's fs when disconnecting and putting the onus on them as much as possible. As hiro said, /mnt/term/dev is a different story. On 2022-07-08 16:51, hiro wrote: > now that there's clear interest expressed in true currency values i > might think about cleaning it up and finding other non-9p-layer > workarounds for speeding up streaming for my few specific cases. Would be great! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary 2022-07-08 20:28 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak 2022-07-08 20:51 ` hiro 2022-07-08 21:04 ` Larkin Nickle @ 2022-07-08 21:11 ` mkf9 2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: mkf9 @ 2022-07-08 21:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9front Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote: > How would open fd's to files and binds to things in /mnt/term be > handled on reconnect on a different machine with a different > /mnt/term? > > Maybe fixing vnc audio is a better bounty for now. I don't think vnc supports any form audio at all. some vnc clients/servers use hacks with pulseaudio and things like that. maybe having a sndio server could work in our case? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-07-10 10:48 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2022-07-08 17:49 [9front] Bounty: tmux-esque /dev/draw intermediary Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 19:24 ` michael.grunditz 2022-07-08 19:33 ` Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 19:40 ` Stanley Lieber 2022-07-08 19:46 ` Kurt H Maier 2022-07-08 19:51 ` mkf9 2022-07-08 20:05 ` Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 20:11 ` Stanley Lieber 2022-07-08 20:15 ` mkf9 2022-07-08 20:24 ` Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 20:28 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak 2022-07-08 20:51 ` hiro 2022-07-10 10:46 ` Philip Silva 2022-07-08 21:04 ` Larkin Nickle 2022-07-08 21:11 ` mkf9
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