From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: by 10.236.108.44 with SMTP id p32cs75308yhg; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 06:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <9front+bncCPTY2Ox2ELaV_OwEGgS3L-7o@googlegroups.com> Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of 9front+bncCPTY2Ox2ELaV_OwEGgS3L-7o@googlegroups.com designates 10.229.32.17 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.229.32.17; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of 9front+bncCPTY2Ox2ELaV_OwEGgS3L-7o@googlegroups.com designates 10.229.32.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=9front+bncCPTY2Ox2ELaV_OwEGgS3L-7o@googlegroups.com; dkim=pass header.i=9front+bncCPTY2Ox2ELaV_OwEGgS3L-7o@googlegroups.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.229.32.17]) by 10.229.32.17 with SMTP id a17mr904788qcd.42.1302268598549 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:16:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FlQwGxhF+17f77XlQ0L9zWf4aScsw2nYC7E1dcE2dV4=; b=NV+EdPkZss0gLmGljtMNWKcsGZLj2mXTSPOrQQlKgl7TH/64awc9iDK9tXz6DmIMHE 5oV0gIo3+6GKHDHSumFWEREv8CnVRASAVpST+JKMHpYDXupyHnkS3xB5VpCux2FTrg/F xDuBEJ7diYtJIdKi+OSpkwRuIew0bP0xfH9Qg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=UAB1BIoXHOqQ8tFwlaA4VI0NW7wwTsQ2dI2uJUrYM9t42CXG2PTCxLeMGaY7vAicrx uMYTSLklWGbQKTlOzbj/G15pmKSHIs7pH/1+3x89wqOwjRbz3gidPF196fTgy3eNS4Gx VVD+GlhNgZ51Wf7HPVoioswhrulW+cKV//HPk= Received: by 10.229.32.17 with SMTP id a17mr234430qcd.42.1302268598503; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:16:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: 9front@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.207.201 with SMTP id fz9ls474137qab.3.p; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:16:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.181.1 with SMTP id bw1mr115662qab.16.1302268597003; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 06:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by r6g2000vbo.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 06:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 06:16:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <41D312FB-F15E-4DC5-8B8F-2EDEA44460A2@fastmail.fm> X-IP: 92.78.29.20 References: <41D312FB-F15E-4DC5-8B8F-2EDEA44460A2@fastmail.fm> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 5.1; U; en) Presto/2.6.30 Version/10.61,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: Re: package manager? seriously? From: cinap_lenrek To: 9front <9front@googlegroups.com> X-Original-Sender: cinap_lenrek@gmx.de Reply-To: 9front@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list 9front@googlegroups.com; contact 9front+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: <9front.googlegroups.com> X-Google-Group-Id: 831096995978 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: 9front@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i completly agree with this! i'm not a fan of package managers... compiling and installing native stuff in plan9 is very easy... you untar a file somewhere, run mk install and its done... after this procedure, you know exactly what files where installed/changed and the process is transparent and not hidden in replica logs and shell scripts... but the image changes when you consider ape ports... these *have* dependencies and unfortunatly are not self contained :-( maybe we just add the stuff in the 9front distribution then? -- cinap On Apr 4, 3:16=A0am, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > Ugh. I'm tired, I've been writing and doing stuff far too much this =A0 > past week, and then people start bringing up "what's going to be =A0 > 9front's package manager" as if it were some kind of fait accompli, =A0 > and instantly talking about "how are we going to have the package =A0 > manager deal with config files?" > > I think martian67 helped me organize my thoughts best when he said =A0 > "packages enforce a certain structure on things." ... I don't if this =A0 > will come across in text but what I really wanted to reply to that is =A0 > "Oh! OH!! Ohhh yeeesss, let's ENFORCE STRUCTURE!!! STRUCTURE is =A0 > GOOOOOOOD! Must have STRUCTURE!" > > Plan 9's design is extremely good at making structure work in good, =A0 > useful, non-limiting ways. What's the system which makes the most use =A0 > of package management today? Gnu/Linux. What's the one system which =A0 > employs structure in the very worst way possible throughout? Gnu/Linux. > > Package managers are a big part of the disease. Dependency tracking =A0 > helps create the longest and most brittle dependency chains. Config =A0 > file management isn't management at all. Either you are managing the =A0 > config files on your system or something else is, which way is it =A0 > going to go? > > Another big argument is package managers somehow stop things making a =A0 > mess all over your system. Er, no, they provide a way for people to =A0 > patch random shit to fit an arbitrary structure... Is "random shit" =A0 > even remotely relevant in the context of 9front? For fuck's sake how =A0 > much bullshit are we going to pile on this OS anyway? Without, you =A0 > know, making it fit the OS first? Good grief people, THINK already. > > Finally... "ohmigosh but the ONLY way you can possibly uninstall =A0 > cleanly is with a package manager" argument, to which I will reply =A0 > with two words: make uninstall. Plan 9 mkfiles =A0already have all the = =A0 > files they install listed, it shouldn't be hard to put an uninstall =A0 > target in the files every mkfile sources. This isn't random bullshit =A0 > made to work with crappy implementations of make, this is something =A0 > for which we can make an uninstall target work already. > > For those STILL in fucking lust with package managers, will you =A0 > PLEASE stop thinking of 9front as a suitable platform for megalithic =A0 > dinosaurian monstrosities?