Installing libraries ?

Installing libraries ?

[David Teller]

    Hi,

 I'd like to know what is the standard way of installing libraries
during "make install" ? I have the feeling that godi, findlib and Debian
don't agree on directory structures, so I guess I should ask here. Can
OCamlBuild install libraries, btw ?

Thanks,
 David

-- 
David Teller
 Security of Distributed Systems
  http://www.univ-orleans.fr/lifo/Members/David.Teller
 Angry researcher: French Universities need reforms, but the LRU act brings liquidations. 

Re: [Caml-list] Installing libraries ?

[Nicolas Pouillard]

Excerpts from david.teller's message of Mon Dec 17 00:40:27 +0100 2007:
>     Hi,
Hi,

[...]

> Can OCamlBuild install libraries, btw ?

Not yet. I think that ocamlbuild will treat installation one day.
-- 
Nicolas Pouillard aka Ertai

RE: [Caml-list] Installing libraries ?

[David Allsopp]

Nicolas Pouillard wrote:

>Excerpts from david.teller's message of Mon Dec 17 00:40:27 +0100 2007:
>>     Hi,
>Hi,
>
> [...]
>
>> Can OCamlBuild install libraries, btw ?
>
>Not yet. I think that ocamlbuild will treat installation one day.

	Hang on a sec, if installation of libraries is on the ocamlbuild
roadmap, surely when that time comes your time will be vastly better spent
incorporating ocamlfind into the official OCaml distro instead?

	I'm aware that this sort of thing has been asked for before (and
Xavier and others have given very good support-based reasons for why
contributions to the OCaml codebase are kept to a minimum which I fully
respect) but why waste your time reinventing a very well-constructed wheel?
Do you have some amazing new installation features in mind (you may, of
course!)?

Just my 2p...


David

Re: Installing libraries ?

[Sylvain Le Gall]

On 17-12-2007, David Allsopp <dra-news@metastack.com> wrote:
> Nicolas Pouillard wrote:
>
>>Excerpts from david.teller's message of Mon Dec 17 00:40:27 +0100 2007:
>>>     Hi,
>>Hi,
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Can OCamlBuild install libraries, btw ?
>>
>>Not yet. I think that ocamlbuild will treat installation one day.
>
> 	Hang on a sec, if installation of libraries is on the ocamlbuild
> roadmap, surely when that time comes your time will be vastly better spent
> incorporating ocamlfind into the official OCaml distro instead?
>
> 	I'm aware that this sort of thing has been asked for before (and
> Xavier and others have given very good support-based reasons for why
> contributions to the OCaml codebase are kept to a minimum which I fully
> respect) but why waste your time reinventing a very well-constructed wheel?
> Do you have some amazing new installation features in mind (you may, of
> course!)?
>
> Just my 2p...

Just to give my 2 cents also, i fully agree with the view above. If
ocamlbuild could integrate with ocamlfind (for library installation and
for library use) this would be a great step.

The only thing I disagree with the above message, is that ocamlfind
should not be integrated into ocaml (i also think integrating ocamlbuild
is not the best move -- but that a VERY personnal point of view). I
think ocamlbuild should allow to very easily integrate with ocamlfind
(i.e. build something that as a semantic near the one provided by
ocamlfind for -package et al, and only provide a plugin to integrate
with ocamlfind). 

OCamlfind is the best tool around for managing libraries in ocaml.
OCaml distributions, like debian or godi, already provide a support for
it. Most of the time missing META file are even provided by these
distributions. Allowing an easy use of it could be a very good point for
all (and the continuation of an implicit policy).

I know there is already a piece of ocamlbuild plugin to integrate
ocamlfind, the BEST way to continue this work is to allow to fully
integrate ocamlfind and ocamlbuild through this work.

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall

Re: [Caml-list] Re: Installing libraries ?

[Berke Durak]

Sylvain Le Gall a écrit :
> OCamlfind is the best tool around for managing libraries in ocaml.
> OCaml distributions, like debian or godi, already provide a support for
> it. Most of the time missing META file are even provided by these
> distributions. Allowing an easy use of it could be a very good point for
> all (and the continuation of an implicit policy).
> 
> I know there is already a piece of ocamlbuild plugin to integrate
> ocamlfind, the BEST way to continue this work is to allow to fully
> integrate ocamlfind and ocamlbuild through this work.

Hello,

I agree.  I think Ocamlfind and Godi are nice pieces of work, and it 
certainly would be better if we could integrate existing systems.

We all love Ocaml, but there seems to be an important problem with it.

Unlike most programming languages of similar magnitude, Ocaml doesn't 
have a developer conference where its users could meet face-to-face and 
discuss these kind of things...  (or did I miss something?)  If not, we 
should organize one.

Ocaml users span half a dozen continents but we could start with a small 
gathering in Paris.  I'd suggest late January.

We could then discuss distribution, building, packaging and other 
issues;  and publish guidelines for a "request for implementation" -- 
things we would like to see in an integrated compilation and package 
manager.

People would then implement different solutions and we could gather two 
months later to evaluate the proposals.

Does anyone have a proposal for a gathering place?
-- 
Berke DURAK

Re: [Caml-list] Re: Installing libraries ?

[Richard Jones]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 03:13:42PM +0100, Berke Durak wrote:
> Unlike most programming languages of similar magnitude, Ocaml doesn't 
> have a developer conference where its users could meet face-to-face and 
> discuss these kind of things...  (or did I miss something?)  If not, we 
> should organize one.
> 
> Ocaml users span half a dozen continents but we could start with a small 
> gathering in Paris.  I'd suggest late January.
> 
> We could then discuss distribution, building, packaging and other 
> issues;  and publish guidelines for a "request for implementation" -- 
> things we would like to see in an integrated compilation and package 
> manager.
> 
> People would then implement different solutions and we could gather two 
> months later to evaluate the proposals.

+1 ...

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

[was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Sylvain Le Gall]

On 17-12-2007, Berke Durak <berke.durak@exalead.com> wrote:
> Sylvain Le Gall a écrit :
>> OCamlfind is the best tool around for managing libraries in ocaml.
>> OCaml distributions, like debian or godi, already provide a support for
>> it. Most of the time missing META file are even provided by these
>> distributions. Allowing an easy use of it could be a very good point for
>> all (and the continuation of an implicit policy).
>> 
>> I know there is already a piece of ocamlbuild plugin to integrate
>> ocamlfind, the BEST way to continue this work is to allow to fully
>> integrate ocamlfind and ocamlbuild through this work.
>
> Hello,
>
> I agree.  I think Ocamlfind and Godi are nice pieces of work, and it 
> certainly would be better if we could integrate existing systems.
>
> We all love Ocaml, but there seems to be an important problem with it.
>
> Unlike most programming languages of similar magnitude, Ocaml doesn't 
> have a developer conference where its users could meet face-to-face and 
> discuss these kind of things...  (or did I miss something?)  If not, we 
> should organize one.
>
> Ocaml users span half a dozen continents but we could start with a small 
> gathering in Paris.  I'd suggest late January.
>
> We could then discuss distribution, building, packaging and other 
> issues;  and publish guidelines for a "request for implementation" -- 
> things we would like to see in an integrated compilation and package 
> manager.
>
> People would then implement different solutions and we could gather two 
> months later to evaluate the proposals.
>
> Does anyone have a proposal for a gathering place?

+1

I agree with the date.

The gathering place will depend on the number of people coming and the
time (1h - 1 week end?) 

I tend to think that it is better to meet longer when trying to
implement something (setup a build environment take at least 1 hour, so
the meeting should last a lot longer than this...).

If the meeting is informal (2-3 hours), we could meet in a bar in Paris
(i have several proposition concerning this). If we want something
longer, we should contact people that have access to some better place
(ENST, ENS, Paris VI... Exalead?)

Maybe doing this during a week end should be a good solution.

I will be there anyway ;-)

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall

Re: [Caml-list] [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Berke Durak]

Sylvain Le Gall a écrit :
>> Does anyone have a proposal for a gathering place?
> 
> +1
> 
> I agree with the date.
> 
> The gathering place will depend on the number of people coming and the
> time (1h - 1 week end?) 
> 
> I tend to think that it is better to meet longer when trying to
> implement something (setup a build environment take at least 1 hour, so
> the meeting should last a lot longer than this...).
> 
> If the meeting is informal (2-3 hours), we could meet in a bar in Paris
> (i have several proposition concerning this). If we want something
> longer, we should contact people that have access to some better place
> (ENST, ENS, Paris VI... Exalead?)
> 
> Maybe doing this during a week end should be a good solution.
> 
> I will be there anyway ;-)

What about Saturday the 19th or Saturday the 26th in January?  Something 
like 14:00-18:00 should be fine I guess.

I think we could simply gather in a café -- I was not thinking of a 
"coding party" but more of a "what should we do to integrate building 
and packaging?"-like discussion.

We just need a quiet place with a bit of space.
-- 
Berke DURAK

Re: [Caml-list] [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Richard Jones]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 05:13:02PM +0100, Berke Durak wrote:
> What about Saturday the 19th or Saturday the 26th in January?  Something 
> like 14:00-18:00 should be fine I guess.
> 
> I think we could simply gather in a café -- I was not thinking of a 
> "coding party" but more of a "what should we do to integrate building 
> and packaging?"-like discussion.
> 
> We just need a quiet place with a bit of space.

While I'm not guaranteeing that I could come, I checked for Eurostar
prices to Paris from London and they range around the GBP 150 - 180
region, including one night in a hotel (Saturday).  Can probably do it
a little cheaper if I look around further.

I think for people coming from outside Paris, realistic options would
be:

(1) Try to do it all in one long day: leave wherever you live early on
a Saturday or Sunday morning, meeting in the afternoon of that same
day, leave on a late train.  This is the cheapest option because no
hotel stay needed, but probably gives us not very much time together.

(2) Do a weekend: leave on Saturday and arrive in Paris.  Short
meeting and/or social on Saturday evening.  Main meeting on Sunday,
leave Sunday late afternoon or evening.

Either way I don't think it will be very productive to have a meeting
in a cafe.  We'd need to book some sort of a conference room or ask a
caml-friendly company in Paris if we can take a room for the day.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

Re: [Caml-list] [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Yitzhak Mandelbaum]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2156 bytes --]

For those of us who can't make it, any chance you could produce an  
informal summary/overview of the results?


On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:30 AM, Richard Jones wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 05:13:02PM +0100, Berke Durak wrote:
>> What about Saturday the 19th or Saturday the 26th in January?   
>> Something
>> like 14:00-18:00 should be fine I guess.
>>
>> I think we could simply gather in a café -- I was not thinking of a
>> "coding party" but more of a "what should we do to integrate building
>> and packaging?"-like discussion.
>>
>> We just need a quiet place with a bit of space.
>
> While I'm not guaranteeing that I could come, I checked for Eurostar
> prices to Paris from London and they range around the GBP 150 - 180
> region, including one night in a hotel (Saturday).  Can probably do it
> a little cheaper if I look around further.
>
> I think for people coming from outside Paris, realistic options would
> be:
>
> (1) Try to do it all in one long day: leave wherever you live early on
> a Saturday or Sunday morning, meeting in the afternoon of that same
> day, leave on a late train.  This is the cheapest option because no
> hotel stay needed, but probably gives us not very much time together.
>
> (2) Do a weekend: leave on Saturday and arrive in Paris.  Short
> meeting and/or social on Saturday evening.  Main meeting on Sunday,
> leave Sunday late afternoon or evening.
>
> Either way I don't think it will be very productive to have a meeting
> in a cafe.  We'd need to book some sort of a conference room or ask a
> caml-friendly company in Paris if we can take a room for the day.
>
> Rich.
>
> -- 
> Richard Jones
> Red Hat
>
> _______________________________________________
> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management:
> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list
> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs

--------------------------------------------------
Yitzhak Mandelbaum
AT&T Labs - Research

http://www.research.att.com/~yitzhak



[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 9239 bytes --]

Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Sylvain Le Gall]

On 17-12-2007, Yitzhak Mandelbaum <yitzhak@research.att.com> wrote:
>
> For those of us who can't make it, any chance you could produce an =20
> informal summary/overview of the results?
>

Ping me, when it will happen. I will make public the result.

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall

Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Sylvain Le Gall]

On 17-12-2007, Berke Durak <berke.durak@exalead.com> wrote:
> Sylvain Le Gall a écrit :
>>> Does anyone have a proposal for a gathering place?
>> 
>> +1
>> 
>> I agree with the date.
>> 
>> The gathering place will depend on the number of people coming and the
>> time (1h - 1 week end?) 
>> 
>> I tend to think that it is better to meet longer when trying to
>> implement something (setup a build environment take at least 1 hour, so
>> the meeting should last a lot longer than this...).
>> 
>> If the meeting is informal (2-3 hours), we could meet in a bar in Paris
>> (i have several proposition concerning this). If we want something
>> longer, we should contact people that have access to some better place
>> (ENST, ENS, Paris VI... Exalead?)
>> 
>> Maybe doing this during a week end should be a good solution.
>> 
>> I will be there anyway ;-)
>
> What about Saturday the 19th or Saturday the 26th in January?  Something 
> like 14:00-18:00 should be fine I guess.
>

I vote for January the 26th (need time to organize something).

> I think we could simply gather in a café -- I was not thinking of a 
> "coding party" but more of a "what should we do to integrate building 
> and packaging?"-like discussion.
>
> We just need a quiet place with a bit of space.
>

Regarding people coming from outside, i think it should last longer... I
don't think people will move only for 4-hours meeting.

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall

Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Sylvain Le Gall]

On 17-12-2007, Richard Jones <rich@annexia.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 05:13:02PM +0100, Berke Durak wrote:
>> What about Saturday the 19th or Saturday the 26th in January?  Something 
>> like 14:00-18:00 should be fine I guess.
>> 
>> I think we could simply gather in a café -- I was not thinking of a 
>> "coding party" but more of a "what should we do to integrate building 
>> and packaging?"-like discussion.
>> 
>> We just need a quiet place with a bit of space.
>
> While I'm not guaranteeing that I could come, I checked for Eurostar
> prices to Paris from London and they range around the GBP 150 - 180
> region, including one night in a hotel (Saturday).  Can probably do it
> a little cheaper if I look around further.
>
> I think for people coming from outside Paris, realistic options would
> be:
>
> (1) Try to do it all in one long day: leave wherever you live early on
> a Saturday or Sunday morning, meeting in the afternoon of that same
> day, leave on a late train.  This is the cheapest option because no
> hotel stay needed, but probably gives us not very much time together.
>
> (2) Do a weekend: leave on Saturday and arrive in Paris.  Short
> meeting and/or social on Saturday evening.  Main meeting on Sunday,
> leave Sunday late afternoon or evening.
>

I vote for (2), with this modified planning:
* begin at 10AM on saturday
* meeting all day
* diner in paris 
* organize some guided tour in Paris on Sunday...

FYI, i think it will be hard to find some meeting room on sunday. So
letting people visit Paris on Sunday is the best option (because it is
possible to visit paris on sunday). 

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall

Re: [Caml-list] Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[David Teller]

On Mon, 2007-12-17 at 17:05 +0000, Sylvain Le Gall wrote:
> > What about Saturday the 19th or Saturday the 26th in January?  Something 
> > like 14:00-18:00 should be fine I guess.
> I vote for January the 26th (need time to organize something).

+1 for a Saturday
Personally, I'd prefer February 2th, but I can survive with January
26th.

> > I think we could simply gather in a café -- I was not thinking of a 
> > "coding party" but more of a "what should we do to integrate building 
> > and packaging?"-like discussion.
> >
> > We just need a quiet place with a bit of space.
> >
> 
> Regarding people coming from outside, i think it should last longer... I
> don't think people will move only for 4-hours meeting.

Yeah, but what about a meeting and a good restaurant ? :)

Cheers,
 David

-- 
David Teller
 Security of Distributed Systems
  http://www.univ-orleans.fr/lifo/Members/David.Teller
 Angry researcher: French Universities need reforms, but the LRU act brings liquidations. 

Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Sylvain Le Gall]

On 17-12-2007, David Teller <David.Teller@univ-orleans.fr> wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-12-17 at 17:05 +0000, Sylvain Le Gall wrote:
>> > What about Saturday the 19th or Saturday the 26th in January?  Something 
>> > like 14:00-18:00 should be fine I guess.
>> I vote for January the 26th (need time to organize something).
>
> +1 for a Saturday
> Personally, I'd prefer February 2th, but I can survive with January
> 26th.
>
>> > I think we could simply gather in a café -- I was not thinking of a 
>> > "coding party" but more of a "what should we do to integrate building 
>> > and packaging?"-like discussion.
>> >
>> > We just need a quiet place with a bit of space.
>> >
>> 
>> Regarding people coming from outside, i think it should last longer... I
>> don't think people will move only for 4-hours meeting.
>
> Yeah, but what about a meeting and a good restaurant ? :)
>

Being french, doing a meeting in Paris and going to Mc Do ? Are you
kidding ;-)

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall

Re: [Caml-list] Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Vincent Hanquez]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 07:50:32PM +0000, Sylvain Le Gall wrote:
> On 17-12-2007, David Teller <David.Teller@univ-orleans.fr> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2007-12-17 at 17:05 +0000, Sylvain Le Gall wrote:
> >> > What about Saturday the 19th or Saturday the 26th in January?  Something 
> >> > like 14:00-18:00 should be fine I guess.
> >> I vote for January the 26th (need time to organize something).
> >
> > +1 for a Saturday
> > Personally, I'd prefer February 2th, but I can survive with January
> > 26th.
> >
> >> > I think we could simply gather in a café -- I was not thinking of a 
> >> > "coding party" but more of a "what should we do to integrate building 
> >> > and packaging?"-like discussion.
> >> >
> >> > We just need a quiet place with a bit of space.
> >> >
> >> 
> >> Regarding people coming from outside, i think it should last longer... I
> >> don't think people will move only for 4-hours meeting.
> >
> > Yeah, but what about a meeting and a good restaurant ? :)
> >
> 
> Being french, doing a meeting in Paris and going to Mc Do ? Are you
> kidding ;-)

Not that i think a meeting is a bad idea, but without INRIA's caml team
commiting to something (so far noone answered the question about ocamlfind)
or at least beeing there, the meeting will get nothing done.

-- 
Vincent Hanquez

Re: [Caml-list] Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Berke Durak]

Vincent Hanquez a écrit :
> 
> Not that i think a meeting is a bad idea, but without INRIA's caml team
> commiting to something (so far noone answered the question about ocamlfind)
> or at least beeing there, the meeting will get nothing done.

Don't worry.  There should be one or two insiders at the meeting.
-- 
Berke DURAK

Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Sylvain Le Gall]

On 18-12-2007, Vincent Hanquez <tab@snarc.org> wrote:
>
> Not that i think a meeting is a bad idea, but without INRIA's caml team
> commiting to something (so far noone answered the question about ocamlfind)
> or at least beeing there, the meeting will get nothing done.
>

I agree on the fact that it should be better that some one from the
gallium team come (i think this is the project that take care of ocaml today).

But, i also think that there is no reason that good idea NEED someone
from INRIA. There is a lot of good idea that can just make their way,
even with no official support from INRIA...

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall

Re: [Caml-list] Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Nicolas Pouillard]

Excerpts from Berke Durak's message of Tue Dec 18 10:57:13 +0100 2007:
> Vincent Hanquez a écrit :
> > 
> > Not that i think a meeting is a bad idea, but without INRIA's caml team
> > commiting to something (so far noone answered the question about ocamlfind)
> > or at least beeing there, the meeting will get nothing done.
> 
> Don't worry.  There should be one or two insiders at the meeting.

Yes, I confirm that I will be there!
-- 
Nicolas Pouillard aka Ertai

Re: [Caml-list] Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Vincent Hanquez]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 09:57:13AM +0000, Sylvain Le Gall wrote:
> On 18-12-2007, Vincent Hanquez <tab@snarc.org> wrote:
> >
> > Not that i think a meeting is a bad idea, but without INRIA's caml team
> > commiting to something (so far noone answered the question about ocamlfind)
> > or at least beeing there, the meeting will get nothing done.
> >
> 
> I agree on the fact that it should be better that some one from the
> gallium team come (i think this is the project that take care of ocaml today).
> 
> But, i also think that there is no reason that good idea NEED someone
> from INRIA. There is a lot of good idea that can just make their way,
> even with no official support from INRIA...

I'm not saying you guys can't have good ideas, it's just, it will have
100x more productivity if the caml team is there to hear those good
ideas.

-- 
Vincent Hanquez

Re: [Caml-list] Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Vincent Hanquez]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 10:59:03AM +0100, Nicolas Pouillard wrote:
> Yes, I confirm that I will be there!

That's really good to hear !

-- 
Vincent Hanquez

Re: [Caml-list] Re: [was: Installing libraries ?] OCaml meeting in Paris

[Xavier Leroy]

>> Not that i think a meeting is a bad idea, but without INRIA's caml team
>> commiting to something (so far noone answered the question about
ocamlfind)
>> or at least beeing there, the meeting will get nothing done.
>>
>
> I agree on the fact that it should be better that some one from the
> gallium team come (i think this is the project that take care of
> ocaml today).

Correct.  You can rest assured that some of us will attend.  I'd be
very happy to if the dates work out: it's always a pleasure for me to
meet OCaml users and contributors in person.  I'm also thinking how we
could help with organizing such an event, including through financial
support.  It's too bad INRIA doesn't have facilities in downtown Paris
to host the event.

> But, i also think that there is no reason that good idea NEED someone
> from INRIA. There is a lot of good idea that can just make their way,
> even with no official support from INRIA...

Indeed.  There's plenty of initiatives that this community can take,
and we're more than willing to support them if we can.

- Xavier Leroy