From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30021BBAF for ; Wed, 19 May 2010 02:18:12 +0200 (CEST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApIBABfL8ktKfVI0mGdsb2JhbACTEIpwCBUBAQEBAQgJDAcRIogppXgBBY4sAQSFEA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.53,258,1272837600"; d="scan'208";a="59608339" Received: from mail-ww0-f52.google.com ([74.125.82.52]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 19 May 2010 02:18:11 +0200 Received: by wwb22 with SMTP id 22so224323wwb.39 for ; Tue, 18 May 2010 17:18:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:references :in-reply-to:subject:date:organization:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:thread-index :content-language; bh=2gCFfrCK+kPyZM4wX236zl7q63dkf+6yqaQZ9F3swd0=; b=mp1n4gwN5ttCyWGa4f5+XOIHCa2R8yf8ODRSouGZFdnW1fcwU27MxvMbswUKQ9cNC4 VfuYfVMeKwRBxQi6v6sjwrWD/lt+GmRK5mQ7w/0fT7E+0nnRx/4ZiuE4SHRvKiFwKwX+ 4jiLZtiXxxOAHD4qFIYK3tkHdyDvrVNprKir0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:organization:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :thread-index:content-language; b=xCGidNsL6U3toOIqyzFm8L0qOgPGLuqidha8eZzuhEIdXDUcBKgpXLJAbDWZU+1ZeV 3SSoVksjz72LInxswteYDZXwlLQykFRg2aRamz2+8WqdbRVo/rQS0k2qdfW9Rjw1HXyI iRm0OtOZr/Awebd85XsankADxrB6Sh0zAaW3I= Received: by 10.227.155.71 with SMTP id r7mr7050180wbw.102.1274228290278; Tue, 18 May 2010 17:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WinEight (87.114.183.77.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net [87.114.183.77]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l23sm52102000wbb.20.2010.05.18.17.18.06 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 18 May 2010 17:18:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Harrop To: References: <951508.20587.qm@web58708.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <201005061233.07551.peng.zang@gmail.com> <07b101caf08b$3e5022c0$baf06840$@com> <088201caf1ce$b5060cb0$1f122610$@com> <20100512151137.26894ywcpv71ixvk@imp.ovh.net> <012601caf351$e9a362e0$bcea28a0$@com> <44A730DD-54EB-4A1C-BD1A-6E9EFB31B5A2@x9c.fr> <01f001caf536$c923b4c0$5b6b1e40$@com> <20100517095327.14271x0lnao43sao@imp.ovh.net> In-Reply-To: <20100517095327.14271x0lnao43sao@imp.ovh.net> Subject: RE: [Caml-list] about OcamIL Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 01:17:42 +0100 Organization: Flying Frog Consultancy Message-ID: <002001caf6e8$b408ed90$1c1ac8b0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acr1lh8mm/Lz7Yf2SHaD9aUA/rOXCgBS2fnA Content-Language: en-gb X-Spam: no; 0.00; bigloo:01 bigloo:01 afaict:01 afaict:01 gcc:01 low-level:01 ffi:01 haskell:01 hash:01 trade-offs:01 cheers:01 2.0:98 insult:98 insult:98 2009:98 Xavier Clerc wrote: > Jon Harrop a =E9crit=A0: > > Xavier Clerc: > >> Le 14 mai 2010 =E0 12:40, Jon Harrop a =E9crit : > >> > Xavier Clerc wrote: > >> >> Limiting myself to the JVM... > >> >> Moreover, at least Scala and Bigloo deliver excellent > performances. > >> > > >> > I have benchmarks where the JVM is well over 10x slower than = .NET. > So > >> > I do not regard any JVM-based language as "high performance". > >> > >> Quite ironically, by scratching the surface, one would discover = that > >> both quoted projects can also target .NET (not tested that though). > > > > Does Bigloo.NET support value types? Does Scala.NET use .NET (2.0) > > generics? > > Not AFAICT. Name dropping them in the context of "high performance" > > language > > implementations is more than a little bit silly... >=20 > First off, public insult seems quite superfluous. I was not trying to insult you. Your examples are silly because they are incomplete and untested. Do you even have either of them working right = now? AFAICT, Scala.NET is known not to work and Bigloo.NET is still have = dozens of core bugs fixed. > We should be able to handle a heated debate without resorting to that. I don't think this is heated at all. We were talking about "high performance" languages and you cited a bunch of languages that get = whipped by Python on this benchmark: =20 http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/f-vs-ocaml-vs-haskell-hash-tab= le. html > And I still wait for a clear statement of your level for "high > performance", Within 2x of ANSI C compiled with gcc on all practically-relevant = benchmarks without dropping to low-level code, e.g. GHC's FFI in Haskell. > and references to benchmarks that back up your claims in this thread. http://fsharpnews.blogspot.com/2010/05/java-vs-f.html > As you seem to come from an academic background, I expect facts > and references, and not ad hominem attacks and fuzzy unbacked claims. An ad-hominem attack is an attack against a person. I attacked your examples, not you. > Unless you show that neither Bigloo nor Scala meet your (to be = defined) > criteria for "high performance", my counterexamples still stand. Are you talking about Bigloo.NET and Scala.NET or have you gone back to = the original discussion about JVM-based languages? Scala on the JVM is 7x slower than C++ on this benchmark: =20 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=3Dall&lang=3Dsc= ala&lan g2=3Dgpp The JVM's hash table is 17x slower than .NET's on this benchmark: http://fsharpnews.blogspot.com/2010/05/java-vs-f.html I think that is not "high performance" by any reasonable definition and = this reflects fundamental deficiencies in the VM itself, so there is no hope = of working around it in general. I have not been able to get Bigloo to run: it was deleted from Debian = and Ubuntu (and the shootout) and the source distribution barfs during configuration with " ./install-gc-7.1: 39: patch: not found". > It may just end up that we have different perceptions of "high > performance", and of the trade-offs we are going to make in our > language / platform choices. Probably. What languages do not you not consider to be high performance? Cheers, Jon.