From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA12706; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:48:02 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12473 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:48:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from host3.tech.netcracker.com ([212.119.253.3]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id h2CAlwX13275 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:47:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from ramodinov (h167 [212.119.253.167]) by host3.tech.netcracker.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11886; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:56:11 +0300 (MSK) From: "Alex Romadinoff" To: "'Nicolas Cannasse'" , "'Guillaume Marceau'" , Subject: RE: [Caml-list] OCaml popularity Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:51:47 +0300 Message-ID: <002501c2e885$633aaf80$a7fd77d4@ramodinov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C2E89E.8887E780" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 In-Reply-To: <01a001c2e83f$95230880$2713f9ca@WARP> X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 tuareg:01 ocaml-mode:01 ides:01 jde:99 implemented:01 cannasse:01 warplayer:01 guillaume:01 matured:01 coders:01 usages:01 developpers:01 debugger:01 gui:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C2E89E.8887E780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nicolas, =20 Why should we switch? In fact, Tuareg or ocaml-mode provides reasonable IDE based on emacs.=20 And those IDEs are much betters then those broken VC++. Really.=20 In fact, I=92m industry Java programmer and use emacs JDE mode with ClearCase integration to develop out OSS product. This IDE is better integrated into our development process than so called industry-strength IDEs, such as IDEA and Together/J.=20 =20 I think, emacs provides good framework for building such standard IDE, and all things, you mentioned, could be easily implemented in it. =20 Alex =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Cannasse [mailto:warplayer@free.fr]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:32 AM To: Guillaume Marceau; caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: [Caml-list] OCaml popularity =20 > One other unrelated observation on language acceptance:=20 >=20 > In the the industry, they accept new languages as their IDE become=20 > usable. Somehow, a solid IDE has become the sign that the language=20 > matured and is now stable enough for industrial usage. Also, by their=20 > own account, industrial coders spent so much time in VC++, they are now=20 > IDE-dependent. IDE in this context means one-key compilation, hypertext=20 > jumps between name usages and definitions, and a tree overview of the=20 > components of the project, context sensitive work completion and context=20 > sensitive help, etc. Ocaml would gain at having an official IDE project=20 > which implement these features.=20 You're raising here a remanent subject :)=20 This had been in my mind (and also in the mind of several other people of=20 this list I think) since I started with OCaml. Right now, as one of the few=20 ocaml-windows developpers, I'm editing and compiling Ocaml under Visual=20 Studio 6. The language is not fully integrated since VC6 does not enable it=20 ( while .Net can do it, but is far more expensive and more difficult to=20 deploy for a single basic user ). There is the workspace, syntax=20 highlightning, automatic compilation, one-key compilation start and=20 compilation-error-jump-to-file+line. So it is right now quite convenient to=20 work with.=20 An IDE will require a far more level of integration such as the possibility=20 to "debug" types visualy when having an error ( e.g. just put your mouse /=20 cursor on a variable to see its type ) , perhaps an integrated debugger ,=20 and of course a multiplatform (unix+windows) GUI since doing it from=20 unix-only won't help people from the industry and doing it for windows only=20 won't help the large part of the ocaml community.=20 The problem here is that such kind of editor is more or less a personnal choice, and if you want the current OCaml+Emacs users to switch to such an=20 IDE, you'll have to make it fully customizable and add key features that will make the difference. Quite a challenge.=20 Nicolas Cannasse=20 -------------------=20 To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr=20 Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/=20 Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C2E89E.8887E780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Caml-list] OCaml popularity

Nicolas,

 

Why should we switch? In fact, Tuareg or ocaml-mode provides reasonable IDE based on emacs.

And those IDEs are much betters then those = broken VC++. Really.

In fact, I’m industry Java programmer and use emacs JDE mode with ClearCase integration to = develop out OSS product. This IDE = is better integrated into our development process than so called industry-strength = IDEs, such as IDEA and Together/J. =

 

I think, emacs = provides good framework for building such standard IDE, and all things, you mentioned, could be = easily implemented in it.

=A0

Alex

 

 

---= --Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Cannasse = [mailto:warplayer@free.fr]
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, = 2003 5:32 AM
To: Guillaume Marceau; caml-list@inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] = OCaml popularity

 

> One other unrelated observation on = language acceptance:
>
> In the the = industry, they accept new languages as their IDE become
> usable. Somehow, a = solid IDE has become the sign that the language
> matured and is now = stable enough for industrial usage. Also, by their
> own account, = industrial coders spent so much time in VC++, they are now
> IDE-dependent. IDE = in this context means one-key compilation, hypertext
> jumps between name = usages and definitions, and a tree overview of the
> components of the = project, context sensitive work completion and context
> sensitive help, = etc. Ocaml would gain at having an official IDE project
> which implement = these features.

You're raising here a remanent subject = :)

This had been in my mind (and also in the = mind of several other people of
this list I think) since = I started with OCaml. Right now, as one of the few
ocaml-windows = developpers, I'm editing and compiling Ocaml under Visual
Studio 6. The language = is not fully integrated since VC6 does not enable it
( while .Net can do it, = but is far more expensive and more difficult to
deploy for a single = basic user ). There is the workspace, syntax
highlightning, automatic compilation, one-key compilation start and
compilation-error-jump-to-file+line. So it is right now quite convenient to
work with. =

An IDE will require a far more level of = integration such as the possibility
to "debug" = types visualy when having an error ( e.g. just put your mouse /
cursor on a variable to = see its type ) , perhaps an integrated debugger ,
and of course a = multiplatform (unix+windows) GUI since doing it from
unix-only won't help = people from the industry and doing it for windows only
won't help the large = part of the ocaml community.

The problem here is that such kind of editor = is more or less a personnal
choice, and if you want = the current OCaml+Emacs users to switch to such an
IDE, you'll have to make = it fully customizable and add key features that
will make the = difference. Quite a challenge.

Nicolas Cannasse =

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Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml= -bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/
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