From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3 X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DFEBC69 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:28:28 +0200 (CEST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAL1qBEfAXQInemdsb2JhbACOOAEBCQo X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.21,229,1188770400"; d="scan'208";a="3742780" Received: from concorde.inria.fr ([192.93.2.39]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 04 Oct 2007 13:28:28 +0200 Received: from mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.105]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l94BSR8P008394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:28:27 +0200 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAL1qBEfC2fJZn2dsb2JhbACOOAEBAgcEBgcg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.21,229,1188770400"; d="scan'208";a="17282849" Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.89]) by mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 04 Oct 2007 13:28:27 +0200 Received: from orion.metastack.com ([80.177.38.218]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.67) id 1IdOsQ-0000Zl-3Q for caml-list@inria.fr; Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:28:23 +0000 Received: from countertenor (mobileweb02.london.02.net [193.113.235.168]) (authenticated bits=0) by orion.metastack.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l94BPYmp005005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:25:47 +0100 From: "David Allsopp" To: References: <20071003083529.40DA2A99F@Adric.metnet.fnmoc.navy.mil><4703FDEF.7030900@univ-savoie.fr><1191451810.7218.86.camel@rosella.wigram><47042202.4070906@mcmaster.ca> <1191461066.7542.48.camel@rosella.wigram> Subject: RE: [Caml-list] Unsoundness is essential Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:26:53 +0100 Organization: MetaStack Solutions Ltd. Message-ID: <018201c80679$86a2ba00$017ca8c0@countertenor> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 Thread-Index: AcgGJTTVhm2Se4dkSHit817erpgETwAPWnsw In-Reply-To: <1191461066.7542.48.camel@rosella.wigram> X-Miltered: at concorde with ID 4704CE5B.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail . ensmp . fr)! X-Spam: no; 0.00; vastly:01 ocaml:01 pointer:01 python's:01 ocaml:01 worn:98 richards:98 typing:01 typing:01 exception:01 caml-list:01 python:03 strong:96 languages:03 programming:03 > Ah, but that is what I *am* arguing for. The 'reasoning' is simply > that 'the programmer knows best' -- when the type system doesn't. "the programmer knows best" is one of the founding principles of BCPL!! I'm not sure I agree, though - IMO Vincent is correct that being forced to express things "properly" results in better code in the long run. Try writing any substantial amount of BCPL[*]... > The evidence is: programming languages with dynamic or unsound > typing eg Python, C, are vastly more popular than those with > strong typing. I'm not at all convinced that dynamic/unsound typing is the reason for the popularity of C, etc - I've never met a C programmer whose eyes didn't pop out on stalks when you explain that Ocaml cannot reference a null pointer (not that that has ever caused a Damascene-road conversion to the language, either!). C and Python's popularity is more down to needing ever more programmers to debug the work of the previous programmers, right? :o) Personally, whenever I go back to C, the novelty of the relaxed type system is instantly worn away on the first tricky-to-repeat core dump... at least an Ocaml exception has a cat in hell's chance of being found systematically! David * With apologies and due deference to Martin Richards if he reads this list!