[Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Luc Mazardo]

The goal of OCamlSDL is to provide access the multimedia hardware
in the ML programming language with the help of the SDL library.
The Simple DirectMedia Layer is a generic API that provides low
level access to audio, keyboard, mouse, and display framebuffer across
multiple platforms. 

here is a part of HISTORY file:

Release 0.5:
        * Ocamlplayer has been added, it provides to play audio file 
          (ogg,xm, s3m, wav) on the commande line. 

        * Applying many patches. 

You can look at the website for retreving infos, documentations and downloading
the new release.

        http://ocamlsdl.sourceforge.net/

We always need some feedback.


-- 
Luc.Mazardo@cvf.fr
	
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Warp]

> The goal of OCamlSDL is to provide access the multimedia hardware
> in the ML programming language with the help of the SDL library.
> The Simple DirectMedia Layer is a generic API that provides low
> level access to audio, keyboard, mouse, and display framebuffer across
> multiple platforms.

Félicitations !
( The logo is quite cool :o)

I'm currently working at using OCaml as a script top-level for Direct3D. For
now it works just fine, and this summer our team will work on a big game
project almost entirely written in OCaml. Altough "game" things are perhaps
not the kind of projects for which OCaml was actually designed, I think we
can get some big payoff by using such a nice langage.

Nicolas Cannasse
Motion-Twin : http://www.motion-twin.com

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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[John Max Skaller]

Warp wrote:

>
>I'm currently working at using OCaml as a script top-level for Direct3D. For
>now it works just fine, and this summer our team will work on a big game
>project almost entirely written in OCaml. Altough "game" things are perhaps
>not the kind of projects for which OCaml was actually designed, I think we
>can get some big payoff by using such a nice langage.
>
No. Yes.:-)

Games are the ultimate application.
You need a very good language to write a decent game
and have it work. Ocaml is a superb choice.
It is well suited to it. Have a look at the complete
and utter rubbish the commercial sector generally offers:
most of them can't even get basic game logic right.

Oh yes, they have superb graphics ... elaborate scenarios ..

Please. Write a decent game. There isn't one.

-- 
John Max Skaller, mailto:skaller@ozemail.com.au
snail:10/1 Toxteth Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
voice:61-2-9660-0850




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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Warp]

> >I'm currently working at using OCaml as a script top-level for Direct3D.
For
> >now it works just fine, and this summer our team will work on a big game
> >project almost entirely written in OCaml. Altough "game" things are
perhaps
> >not the kind of projects for which OCaml was actually designed, I think
we
> >can get some big payoff by using such a nice langage.
> >
> No. Yes.:-)
>
> Games are the ultimate application.
> You need a very good language to write a decent game
> and have it work. Ocaml is a superb choice.
> It is well suited to it. Have a look at the complete
> and utter rubbish the commercial sector generally offers:
> most of them can't even get basic game logic right.
>
> Oh yes, they have superb graphics ... elaborate scenarios ..
>
> Please. Write a decent game. There isn't one.

I think also that Ocaml is a good choice. When you're looking what's
happening in the industry, most of the companies are relying on home-made
script langages, with few features and lots of bugs. Some game scripting
langage have evolved and are now available for OpenSource, but most of the
time the design choice is to be "easier" than C ( no types ! ), which of
course reduce the potential range of application of such a langage.

That's why ocaml is good : you only need to have a slim C/C++ library to
work with and then you can code ALL your game - including tools - in OCaml.

Nicolas Cannasse




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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Will Benton]

Nicolas--

Why are you using D3D and not OpenGL?  OpenGL is not only better, but
it's portable.




wb

Will Benton      | "Die richtige Methode der Philosophie wäre eigentlich 
willb@acm.org    |  die: Nichts zu sagen, als was sich sagen läßt...."
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RE: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Stefano Lanzavecchia]

> Why are you using D3D and not OpenGL?  OpenGL is not only better, but 
> it's portable.

It's really hard to define "better"... Beauty is in the eye of the
beholder...
-- 
WildHeart'2k2 - mailto:stf@apl.it
Homepage: currently offline

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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Will Benton]

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 06:13:37PM +0200, Stefano Lanzavecchia wrote:
> 
> 
> > Why are you using D3D and not OpenGL?  OpenGL is not only better, but 
> > it's portable.
> 
> It's really hard to define "better"... Beauty is in the eye of the
> beholder...

Sure.

However, OpenGL has two major advantages over Direct3D even if you
don't consider how easy it is to use or how efficient it is:
  1.  It is not controlled by a single company (especially not a
      convicted predatory monopolist).  A sub-point of this is that
      many implementations are available for many different platforms.
  2.  O'Caml bindings are already available for OpenGL.




wb

-- 
Will Benton      | "Die richtige Methode der Philosophie wäre eigentlich 
willb@acm.org    |  die: Nichts zu sagen, als was sich sagen läßt...."
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Warp]

> > It's really hard to define "better"... Beauty is in the eye of the
> > beholder...
>
> Sure.
>
> However, OpenGL has two major advantages over Direct3D even if you
> don't consider how easy it is to use or how efficient it is:
>   1.  It is not controlled by a single company (especially not a
>       convicted predatory monopolist).  A sub-point of this is that
>       many implementations are available for many different platforms.
>   2.  O'Caml bindings are already available for OpenGL.

For the 1st point , I do agree, but actually Microsoft is really well
supporting DirectX , and sometimes it's better to have only one company
behind a product, because you don't have to care about driver compatibility
and all MCD/ICD/etc.... stuff of OpenGL which isn't very nice :)

For the 2nd point, I didn't want such a low-level interface.

Nicolas Cannasse



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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[John Max Skaller]

Will Benton wrote:

>
>  2.  O'Caml bindings are already available for OpenGL.
>
In that case, why are we sticking with Tk?

-- 
John Max Skaller, mailto:skaller@ozemail.com.au
snail:10/1 Toxteth Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
voice:61-2-9660-0850




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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Tim Freeman]

Will Benton allegedly wrote:
>  2.  O'Caml bindings are already available for OpenGL.

From: John Max Skaller <skaller@ozemail.com.au>
>In that case, why are we sticking with Tk?

I don't get it.  Tk is about 2D graphics, and OpenGL is about
accelerated 3d graphics.  Your question presupposes that we have a
choice between one and the other, but I can't think of any
applications for which that is true.

-- 
Tim Freeman       
tim@fungible.com
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Sven]

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 05:22:16AM -0700, Tim Freeman wrote:
> 
> Will Benton allegedly wrote:
> >  2.  O'Caml bindings are already available for OpenGL.
> 
> From: John Max Skaller <skaller@ozemail.com.au>
> >In that case, why are we sticking with Tk?
> 
> I don't get it.  Tk is about 2D graphics, and OpenGL is about
> accelerated 3d graphics.  Your question presupposes that we have a
> choice between one and the other, but I can't think of any
> applications for which that is true.

Well, there is nothing stopping you from using OpenGL to do 2D. For instance,
SGI used OpenGL to code a word processor back then, but then, they were SGI.

Friendly,

Sven Luther
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Tom]

Sooner or later, 2D UIs based on 3D APIs and accelerators
are going to become widespread.

However, for a good 2D UI, you need pixel-accurate rendering
and some other features.  I think generic OpenGL doesn't 
quite offer all the necessary features.  Also, people like UIs 
that "scale down" to low-end devices; not every handheld can
run OpenGL well (yet).  

Tom

--- Sven <luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 05:22:16AM -0700, Tim Freeman wrote:
> > 
> > Will Benton allegedly wrote:
> > >  2.  O'Caml bindings are already available for OpenGL.
> > 
> > From: John Max Skaller <skaller@ozemail.com.au>
> > >In that case, why are we sticking with Tk?
> > 
> > I don't get it.  Tk is about 2D graphics, and OpenGL is about
> > accelerated 3d graphics.  Your question presupposes that we have a
> > choice between one and the other, but I can't think of any
> > applications for which that is true.
> 
> Well, there is nothing stopping you from using OpenGL to do 2D. For instance,
> SGI used OpenGL to code a word processor back then, but then, they were SGI.
 
> Friendly,
> 
> Sven Luther
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[John Max Skaller]

Tom wrote:

>Sooner or later, 2D UIs based on 3D APIs and accelerators
>are going to become widespread.
>
>However, for a good 2D UI, you need pixel-accurate rendering
>and some other features.  I think generic OpenGL doesn't 
>quite offer all the necessary features.  Also, people like UIs 
>that "scale down" to low-end devices; not every handheld can
>run OpenGL well (yet).  
>
Or Tk. Or Ocaml...

 Perhaps I'm confused, but I though at least OpenGL was a Standard
produced by XOpen .. but the Linux version is called Mesa ..
is OpenGL interface really SGI proprietary?

-- 
John Max Skaller, mailto:skaller@ozemail.com.au
snail:10/1 Toxteth Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
voice:61-2-9660-0850




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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[John Max Skaller]

Tim Freeman wrote:

>Will Benton allegedly wrote:
>
>> 2.  O'Caml bindings are already available for OpenGL.
>>
>
>From: John Max Skaller <skaller@ozemail.com.au>
>
>>In that case, why are we sticking with Tk?
>>
>
>I don't get it.  Tk is about 2D graphics, and OpenGL is about
>accelerated 3d graphics.  Your question presupposes that we have a
>choice between one and the other, but I can't think of any
>applications for which that is true.
>
Gee, I always though 2D was a subspace of 3D...

-- 
John Max Skaller, mailto:skaller@ozemail.com.au
snail:10/1 Toxteth Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
voice:61-2-9660-0850




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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[William Chesters]

John Max Skaller writes:
 > Tim Freeman wrote:
 > >I don't get it.  Tk is about 2D graphics, and OpenGL is about
 > >accelerated 3d graphics.  Your question presupposes that we have a
 > >choice between one and the other, but I can't think of any
 > >applications for which that is true.
 >
 > Gee, I always though 2D was a subspace of 3D...

Yes, at work we use OpenGL also for 2D stuff, because it's just nicer
to work with than X/Motif.  In principle it works fine.  In practice
it took the people working on it (not me, thankfully) a very long time
to iron out the stability problems---our s/w would completely take out
not only Linux but also Solaris (on stock Sun hardware!), apparently
because of raciness if the user had a lot of OGL windows open.
Basically the implementations appeared to be fully mature only in the
common, single-3D-window usage ... however things do appear to have
settled down now.
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Oliver Bandel]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John Max Skaller wrote:

> Tim Freeman wrote:
> 
> >Will Benton allegedly wrote:
> >
> >> 2.  O'Caml bindings are already available for OpenGL.
> >>
> >
> >From: John Max Skaller <skaller@ozemail.com.au>
> >
> >>In that case, why are we sticking with Tk?
> >>
> >
> >I don't get it.  Tk is about 2D graphics, and OpenGL is about
> >accelerated 3d graphics.  Your question presupposes that we have a
> >choice between one and the other, but I can't think of any
> >applications for which that is true.
> >
> Gee, I always though 2D was a subspace of 3D...

Tk is designed for interactive GUI-Applications. And, yes,
it provides graphical output with the canvas-widget.

But I think that OpenGL is designed for having 3D-animations
and similar stuff, and not to put buttons on the screen,
on which the user can click.
And I think you have to reinvent the "button-wheel" in OpenGL.

Maybe it would be a good idea to marriage OpenGL and Tk,
so that Tk provides easy GUI-design and OpenGL provides
powerful 3D-capabilities.

Maybe there should be a GUI-Lib for OpenGL, or a 3D-canvas-
widget for Tk (OpenGL-canvas for Tk).

Ciao,
   Oliver

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RE: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Stefano Lanzavecchia]

> Maybe there should be a GUI-Lib for OpenGL, or a 3D-canvas- widget for

> Tk (OpenGL-canvas for Tk).

Google says:
http://togl.sourceforge.net/

-- 
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Homepage: currently offline

<<<YAPPAPPAA YAPPAPPAA RYAN-SHAN-TEN ---
   YAPPAPPAA YAPPAPPAA RYAN-SHAN-TEN>>>

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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Jacques Garrigue]

From: Oliver Bandel <oliver@first.in-berlin.de>

> Tk is designed for interactive GUI-Applications. And, yes,
> it provides graphical output with the canvas-widget.
> 
> But I think that OpenGL is designed for having 3D-animations
> and similar stuff, and not to put buttons on the screen,
> on which the user can click.
> And I think you have to reinvent the "button-wheel" in OpenGL.
> 
> Maybe it would be a good idea to marriage OpenGL and Tk,
> so that Tk provides easy GUI-design and OpenGL provides
> powerful 3D-capabilities.
> 
> Maybe there should be a GUI-Lib for OpenGL, or a 3D-canvas-
> widget for Tk (OpenGL-canvas for Tk).

As somebody pointed out, there is a Tk extension called Togl to do
that.
And, you know what? LablGL includes Togl, so that you can
transparently mix your OpenGL and LablTk code.
And since LablGTK also support LablGL, you can even choose between Tk
and GTK+.

Cheers,

Jacques Garrigue
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[John Max Skaller]

Oliver Bandel wrote:

>
>Tk is designed for interactive GUI-Applications. And, yes,
>it provides graphical output with the canvas-widget.
>
But there is no tree widget, and that is a mandatory widget.
So Tk is broken, and not worth fixing. Of course, there is a tree
widget in TiX. Then again, Tk isn't thread safe... the current
version of Tcl is thread safe, but Oustermann has said Tk
is beyond hope. He're right. It is a very bad toolkit by
modern standards.

Tk has to go. Its rubbish. There are several
alternatives.

	1. wxWindows -- C++ based
but can be bound into other languages.
It is also somewhat archaic, but probably the best
C/C++ level portable GUI around.

	2. GTK. Isn't mature or well
ported yet. I'm using a GTK based mailer
now .. and believe me, the text editing
is very bad still.

	3. Swing. Portable but Java based.

	4. OpenGL. Designed for 3D, not
really having 2D widget toolkit, Standardised,
originally produced by the top graphics company
for high performance motion.

The simple fact is the kind of static 2D GUI
we're using now is already archaic. Something
designed for 3D and for motion is a clear
winner, because that is how interfaces are going.

If you don't know about that, you should play
more computer games. Checkout animated cursors
drag and drop fading windows and sliding panels features
added to Windows and even Linux GUI systems.

Wake up. 3D motion is where it is at.
The lack of buttons is not an obstacle.
They can be BUILT from the right portable
3d motion primitives and given a rich
variety of behaviours, not constrained
by stupid special cases of existing GUI tool kits.

If you want to find some data in a modern system,
you're NOT going to find it by clicking thru
some stupid menu. Nope. You're going to 
WALK thru a scene to a place the information
is stored.

Sure, such interfaces are premature.
But Ocaml can get a head start by making
3D motion standard. That way
people might start writing stuff that uses it.

Right now, I will not write any gui stuff
simply because there are no interfaces
available worth using. I'd love to see
that change.

-- 
John Max Skaller, mailto:skaller@ozemail.com.au
snail:10/1 Toxteth Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
voice:61-2-9660-0850




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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Sven]

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:50:40PM +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John Max Skaller wrote:
> 
> > Tim Freeman wrote:
> > 
> > >Will Benton allegedly wrote:
> > >
> > >> 2.  O'Caml bindings are already available for OpenGL.
> > >>
> > >
> > >From: John Max Skaller <skaller@ozemail.com.au>
> > >
> > >>In that case, why are we sticking with Tk?
> > >>
> > >
> > >I don't get it.  Tk is about 2D graphics, and OpenGL is about
> > >accelerated 3d graphics.  Your question presupposes that we have a
> > >choice between one and the other, but I can't think of any
> > >applications for which that is true.
> > >
> > Gee, I always though 2D was a subspace of 3D...
> 
> Tk is designed for interactive GUI-Applications. And, yes,
> it provides graphical output with the canvas-widget.
> 
> But I think that OpenGL is designed for having 3D-animations
> and similar stuff, and not to put buttons on the screen,
> on which the user can click.

Well, you can use OpenGL to draw bytemaps (mostly used to draw fonts) or other
such kind of stuff to use as bottoms, and it is then easy to get the mouse
click coordinates back in order to check if the button was pressed. Sure it
would be nicer if all this was done in a library, but it can be done. After
allm the berlin projects uses mesa for writing a X windows replacement, if you
want a proof of this conecpt.

> And I think you have to reinvent the "button-wheel" in OpenGL.

Yes, that is true, but it can be done one time in a lib if you want it, and be
reused afterward.

> Maybe it would be a good idea to marriage OpenGL and Tk,
> so that Tk provides easy GUI-design and OpenGL provides
> powerful 3D-capabilities.
> 
> Maybe there should be a GUI-Lib for OpenGL, or a 3D-canvas-
> widget for Tk (OpenGL-canvas for Tk).

Wellm maybe i don't understand you, but the lablgl binding already provide a
way to do OpenGL in Tk (using the togl widget) and the lablgtk bindings
provide a way to do OpenGL in gtk+ using the gtkglarea widget.

What do you want more ?

Friendlym

Sven Luther
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[John Max Skaller]

>
>
>Wellm maybe i don't understand you, but the lablgl binding already provide a
>way to do OpenGL in Tk (using the togl widget) and the lablgtk bindings
>provide a way to do OpenGL in gtk+ using the gtkglarea widget.
>
>What do you want more ?
>

Nothing. I want LESS. I do NOT want Tk there, nor Gtk.
And for a game, not even the window manager.

I have a friend committed to using OpenGL to do a game.
He's NOT interested in widgets or window managers
from some toolkit. He'll program the buttons to behave
exactly as he want them too directly with the low
level graphics interfaces.

I want to implement a new kind of window manager
called HWM. I can't even host it on X (except at low level)
since X's idea of a WM is archaic and precisely what
I'm trying to replace.

So neither of us is remotely interested in hosting
OpenGL inside a widget of some brain dead toolkit
living inside some brain dead window manager.
We want to use Open GL to REPLACE these
components.

Ideally, Ocaml would have an OpenGL interface
with a binding which works inside the native
window manager (in a window -- for testing) but
which could be replaced by another binding (transparently)
which took over the whole screen, either
directly (for performance) or via low level primitives
of the native system (X windows etc) for hosting
within an existing environment.

So for example, on Linux, I'd want a Mesa binding.

-- 
John Max Skaller, mailto:skaller@ozemail.com.au
snail:10/1 Toxteth Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
voice:61-2-9660-0850



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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Sven]

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 07:04:23PM +1000, John Max Skaller wrote:
> >
> >
> >Wellm maybe i don't understand you, but the lablgl binding already provide a
> >way to do OpenGL in Tk (using the togl widget) and the lablgtk bindings
> >provide a way to do OpenGL in gtk+ using the gtkglarea widget.
> >
> >What do you want more ?
> >
> 
> Nothing. I want LESS. I do NOT want Tk there, nor Gtk.
> And for a game, not even the window manager.

Mmm, i understand, ...

But yyou need a widget to hold the OpenGL area or something.

You could also try doing GLU/GLX whatever directly with appropriate C stubs,
it should not be to heavy.

That said, another way would be to run OpenGL on top of fbdev, this way, you
don't even have X running, which would be nice, you could even imagine a CD
with a kernel, some  drivers, and running your game directly, a bit like a
console, nice, not ?

The problem is that DRI is rather dependant on X right now, and doesn't make
provisions for someone wanting to run accelerated mesa in something which is
not X. You would need your own windows and such stuff though.

> I have a friend committed to using OpenGL to do a game.
> He's NOT interested in widgets or window managers
> from some toolkit. He'll program the buttons to behave
> exactly as he want them too directly with the low
> level graphics interfaces.

Ok, 

> I want to implement a new kind of window manager
> called HWM. I can't even host it on X (except at low level)
> since X's idea of a WM is archaic and precisely what
> I'm trying to replace.

Then have a look at the people working with fbdev, it should give you what
you want. This idea has been discussed various time on the linux-fbdev mailing
list (on sourceforge i think) and there are people who want things like that
there, have a look at the archive.

> So neither of us is remotely interested in hosting
> OpenGL inside a widget of some brain dead toolkit
> living inside some brain dead window manager.
> We want to use Open GL to REPLACE these
> components.
> 
> Ideally, Ocaml would have an OpenGL interface
> with a binding which works inside the native
> window manager (in a window -- for testing) but
> which could be replaced by another binding (transparently)
> which took over the whole screen, either
> directly (for performance) or via low level primitives
> of the native system (X windows etc) for hosting
> within an existing environment.
> 
> So for example, on Linux, I'd want a Mesa binding.

A native fbdev binding would be nice also, i have proposed such a project to
my student, but nobody was interested and i lack the time to do so myself,
but then, maybe i will.

(reverting advi to use again the graphics module and having a fbdev
implementation of the graphics module would go a long step in the way of
having an easy to show without linux and advi installed presenter.

Friendly,

Sven Luther
> 
> -- 
> John Max Skaller, mailto:skaller@ozemail.com.au
> snail:10/1 Toxteth Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
> voice:61-2-9660-0850
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Jérôme Marant]

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:31:45AM +0200, Sven wrote:
 
> A native fbdev binding would be nice also, i have proposed such a project to
> my student, but nobody was interested and i lack the time to do so myself,
> but then, maybe i will.

  There is a new "Project Proposal" entry in the Humps.

-- 
Jérôme Marant
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Jérôme Marant]

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:42:55AM +0200, Jérôme Marant wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:31:45AM +0200, Sven wrote:
>  
> > A native fbdev binding would be nice also, i have proposed such a project to
> > my student, but nobody was interested and i lack the time to do so myself,
> > but then, maybe i will.
> 
>   There is a new "Project Proposal" entry in the Humps.

  I mean, you could ask for it to be added to "Project Proposal" ;-)


-- 
Jérôme Marant
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Sven]

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:42:55AM +0200, Jérôme Marant wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:31:45AM +0200, Sven wrote:
>  
> > A native fbdev binding would be nice also, i have proposed such a project to
> > my student, but nobody was interested and i lack the time to do so myself,
> > but then, maybe i will.
> 
>   There is a new "Project Proposal" entry in the Humps.

Ok, i will have a look.

Friendly,

Sven Luther
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Oliver Bandel]

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Sven wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:50:40PM +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote:
[...]
> Wellm maybe i don't understand you, but the lablgl binding already provide a
> way to do OpenGL in Tk (using the togl widget) and the lablgtk bindings
> provide a way to do OpenGL in gtk+ using the gtkglarea widget.

I didn't know this.


> 
> What do you want more ?

Time to explore and use it. ;-)

 
Ciao,
   Oliver

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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Warp]

> Nicolas--
>
> Why are you using D3D and not OpenGL?  OpenGL is not only better, but
> it's portable.

Our main target are Windows users, we have no plan on porting the game under
Unix/Linux.
It's true that OpenGL is portable, but Direct3D enable a better control of
the video card, and the latest features such as shaders are easily
accessible, it's also fully supported by most of the video cards, and
drivers for D3D are frequently updated.

But after all, a game is a game, and if it is well designed (hope it is :)
then you always can modify your low level calls to switch from D3D to OGL
and vice-versa.

Nicolas Cannasse

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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Sven]

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 07:16:27PM +0200, Warp wrote:
> > Nicolas--
> >
> > Why are you using D3D and not OpenGL?  OpenGL is not only better, but
> > it's portable.
> 
> Our main target are Windows users, we have no plan on porting the game under
> Unix/Linux.

This makes it a lot less interresting :(((

I think, not porting, but writing games directly to be multi-plateform is the
way of the future. This is the way that ID took with quake III, altough that
didn't go too well for the linux sales i hear (but then maybe more for
marketing reasons than for other things, you could play the linux game by
buying the windows version which was much more widely available, so counting
were not fair. A better test will be the forthcoming neverwinter nights
though, which is supposed to release on Windows, MacOSX, Linux and Be at the
same time. I think there will still be availability issues though.

> It's true that OpenGL is portable, but Direct3D enable a better control of
> the video card, and the latest features such as shaders are easily
> accessible, it's also fully supported by most of the video cards, and
> drivers for D3D are frequently updated.

Well, the new OpenGL 2.0 initiative should solve most of this in a
satisfactory fashion i think, but then, it still needs a little time.

> But after all, a game is a game, and if it is well designed (hope it is :)
> then you always can modify your low level calls to switch from D3D to OGL
> and vice-versa.

Yes, if they are clearly isolated, which is something that ocaml makes easier,
then this could be done easily.

That said, i am curious of the use of the _you_ here, since you have no
intention of porting the games to Unix/Linux, does this imply that other
persons willing to do that may get access to the source code ?
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Warp]

> That said, i am curious of the use of the _you_ here, since you have no
> intention of porting the games to Unix/Linux, does this imply that other
> persons willing to do that may get access to the source code ?

Altough the game itself won't be open source, some piece of it will fall
into the GPL (especialy all C++ lines). Thus, if some people are working on
porting the 3D Engine on Linux and have some success, a Linux release will
be done.

Of course theses active people will get a better support from the team.

Nicolas Cannasse.

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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Vincent Foley]

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 08:01:30PM +0200, Warp wrote:
> Altough the game itself won't be open source, some piece of it will fall
> into the GPL (especialy all C++ lines). Thus, if some people are working on
> porting the 3D Engine on Linux and have some success, a Linux release will
> be done.
---end quoted text---

Why not make the O'Caml part GPL instead?  There are plenty of C++ code
to look at in the gaming world, but almost none in O'Caml.

-- 

Vincent Foley-Bourgon
Email: vinfoley@iquebec.com
Homepage: http://darkhost.mine.nu:81
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Alan Schmitt]

* Sven (luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) wrote:
> > Our main target are Windows users, we have no plan on porting the game under
> > Unix/Linux.
> 
> This makes it a lot less interresting :(((

Well, we can always use wineX (and please no license flames about this
;-)

> 
> I think, not porting, but writing games directly to be multi-plateform is the
> way of the future. This is the way that ID took with quake III, altough that
> didn't go too well for the linux sales i hear (but then maybe more for
> marketing reasons than for other things, you could play the linux game by
> buying the windows version which was much more widely available, so counting
> were not fair. A better test will be the forthcoming neverwinter nights
> though, which is supposed to release on Windows, MacOSX, Linux and Be at the
> same time. I think there will still be availability issues though.
> 

If I remember correctly, all versions will be released simultaneously in
a single box, so it will also be hard to count ...

I quote their faq:

8.04 Will there be a Mac/Linux/BeOs version?

The BeOS version of Neverwinter Nights will not be completed. However,
we are planning a simultaneous PC/Macintosh/Linux release for
Neverwinter Nights, with all three versions to be included in a single
box. On the PC, Neverwinter Nights will run under Windows 98, Windows
ME, Windows 2000 Service Pack 2, and Windows XP.

Sorry for the OT ;-)

ALan

--
The hacker: someone who figured things out and made something cool happen.
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Sven]

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 08:33:19AM +0200, Alan Schmitt wrote:
> * Sven (luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) wrote:
> > > Our main target are Windows users, we have no plan on porting the game under
> > > Unix/Linux.
> > 
> > This makes it a lot less interresting :(((
> 
> Well, we can always use wineX (and please no license flames about this
> ;-)

Sure, unless you happen to have an alpha box, or maybe a sparc one ?

WineX is no solution (and it don't work well for all games anyway).

> > I think, not porting, but writing games directly to be multi-plateform is the
> > way of the future. This is the way that ID took with quake III, altough that
> > didn't go too well for the linux sales i hear (but then maybe more for
> > marketing reasons than for other things, you could play the linux game by
> > buying the windows version which was much more widely available, so counting
> > were not fair. A better test will be the forthcoming neverwinter nights
> > though, which is supposed to release on Windows, MacOSX, Linux and Be at the
> > same time. I think there will still be availability issues though.
> > 
> 
> If I remember correctly, all versions will be released simultaneously in
> a single box, so it will also be hard to count ...

But it will be easy to get.

> I quote their faq:
> 
> 8.04 Will there be a Mac/Linux/BeOs version?
> 
> The BeOS version of Neverwinter Nights will not be completed. However,

Normal, there is no more BeOS.

> we are planning a simultaneous PC/Macintosh/Linux release for
> Neverwinter Nights, with all three versions to be included in a single
> box. On the PC, Neverwinter Nights will run under Windows 98, Windows
> ME, Windows 2000 Service Pack 2, and Windows XP.
> 
> Sorry for the OT ;-)

Yes, sorry also.

Friendly,

Sven LUther
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[John Max Skaller]

Sven wrote:

>
>Yes, if they are clearly isolated, which is something that ocaml makes easier,
>then this could be done easily.
>
This is actually very hard to do.  In general, there is a tight
integration between graphics and game-play engine.
Mainly, this is because realtime behaviour demand it:
even abstraction layers like D3D etc cause serious problems
due to to inadequate coupling .. Diablo II is a pefect example
of extremely bad interactive design precisely because
it didn't lock the frame rate down, or phase lock the
NPCs properly...the graphics were absolutely superb ..
but they had no idea what to do about non-constant rendering
times or how to synch the client and server properly in the presence
of internet lag .. Blizzard sold heaps .. but their reputation is
in tatters now ..

-- 
John Max Skaller, mailto:skaller@ozemail.com.au
snail:10/1 Toxteth Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
voice:61-2-9660-0850




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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Sven]

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:19:23PM +1000, John Max Skaller wrote:
> Sven wrote:
> 
> >
> >Yes, if they are clearly isolated, which is something that ocaml makes easier,
> >then this could be done easily.
> >
> This is actually very hard to do.  In general, there is a tight
> integration between graphics and game-play engine.
> Mainly, this is because realtime behaviour demand it:
> even abstraction layers like D3D etc cause serious problems
> due to to inadequate coupling .. Diablo II is a pefect example
> of extremely bad interactive design precisely because
> it didn't lock the frame rate down, or phase lock the
> NPCs properly...the graphics were absolutely superb ..
> but they had no idea what to do about non-constant rendering
> times or how to synch the client and server properly in the presence
> of internet lag .. Blizzard sold heaps .. but their reputation is
> in tatters now ..

Mmm, yes but :

you could move all the graphic access stuff into a module, and have your
rendering code becomes a functor of such a module. True you loose a bit of
speed because of functor application and such, but i don't think it will be
that significant if you don't go down to the real low level.

That is one of the things that you can easily do in ocaml and which are not
possible in existing commercial games.

Friendly,

Sven Luther
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Vitaly Lugovsky]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Warp wrote:

> > Nicolas--
> >
> > Why are you using D3D and not OpenGL?  OpenGL is not only better, but
> > it's portable.
> 
> Our main target are Windows users, we have no plan on porting the game under
> Unix/Linux.
> It's true that OpenGL is portable, but Direct3D enable a better control of
> the video card,

 What is a "better control"? OpenGL and DirectX have the same 
functionality, and I don't know any popular 3D-cards without OpenGL
drivers. And, some cards, like very popular NVidia, have much better
OpenGL then Direct3D.

> But after all, a game is a game, and if it is well designed (hope it is :)
> then you always can modify your low level calls to switch from D3D to OGL
> and vice-versa.

 Sure. And I noticed, that many games works much better with OpenGL then 
with D3D (on my NVidia card).


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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[John Max Skaller]

Warp wrote:

>
>That's why ocaml is good : you only need to have a slim C/C++ library to
>work with and then you can code ALL your game - including tools - in OCaml.
>
Well .. I think you may find that the requisite graphics interfaces are 
non trivial
and not so "slim" as you might want. Nevertheless, in my view, the graphics
and user interface, while important, are secondary: if you have a solid 
game engine,
you can always improve the pictures and UI later.

Actually, the best language for games is Felix .. since it generates
event driven code and has strong static typing like ocaml .. but
a slicker interface to C/C++... heh .. but its still experimental :-)

--
John Max Skaller, mailto:skaller@ozemail.com.au
snail:10/1 Toxteth Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
voice:61-2-9660-0850




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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Oliver Bandel]

Hello,

On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, John Max Skaller wrote:

> Warp wrote:
> 
> >
> >That's why ocaml is good : you only need to have a slim C/C++ library to
> >work with and then you can code ALL your game - including tools - in OCaml.
> >
> Well .. I think you may find that the requisite graphics interfaces are 
> non trivial
> and not so "slim" as you might want. Nevertheless, in my view, the graphics
> and user interface, while important, are secondary: if you have a solid 
> game engine,
> you can always improve the pictures and UI later.

What's about the doome(?)-engine?
I heard abvout it and that it is now open-source (don't know
it GPL or what else).

Ciao,
   Oliver

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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Oliver Bandel]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Warp wrote:

> > The goal of OCamlSDL is to provide access the multimedia hardware
> > in the ML programming language with the help of the SDL library.
> > The Simple DirectMedia Layer is a generic API that provides low
> > level access to audio, keyboard, mouse, and display framebuffer across
> > multiple platforms.
> 
> Félicitations !
> ( The logo is quite cool :o)
> 
> I'm currently working at using OCaml as a script top-level for Direct3D. For
> now it works just fine, and this summer our team will work on a big game
> project almost entirely written in OCaml. Altough "game" things are perhaps
> not the kind of projects for which OCaml was actually designed, I think we
> can get some big payoff by using such a nice langage.

My next project (I think it will take some months; if it takes
3 years, that is ok) will be
a program for using the computer for labannotation (dance-
notation) and have a 3D-animation of dancers.
It's not necessary to have detailed faces and such
human details, but it should be good enough to see the
movements of peoples. And I think about parallell animation
of many dancers.

And the language I choosed to use to realize that program
is Ocaml.

The reason is, that it's possible to have functional, imperative
and OO-features and the high-level language features.
For example IMHO the datatypes (especially the Sum-types)
are a very powerful facility. Why to write parsers in low-level-
languages, when Ocaml provides high-level features?

My first little experiments with OCaml's Graphics-Library
on X11 were very astouning.
That easy handling of graphics I have looked for a very long time.

Maybe the program will be written directly in Ocaml, or
I implement a Domain Specific Language, writing it
in Ocaml.

I'm a beginner in Ocaml, but even these first steps
are very exciting. And I think I have not seen all the
features of that language in detail.

If it is possible to use 3D-Libraries (realtime 3D :)) from
Ocaml directly, I'm interested in any informations.

I have not worked intensively in the graphics-area, but
I'm very interested in it. I don't know OpenGL in detail;
I once read an article about Mesa (OpenGL-clnoe under Linux)
and it's C-API. But as i saw, how complicated it is
(annoying C-programming), I decided not to use it.

If there is an Ocaml-API, that would be *very* nice. :)

So, please if you have more informations on 3D-animations in generall
(I need a postscript-output of 3D too and therefore
have to implement some graphics-stuff by myself (PostScript
does only provide 2D, like Xlib)) 
or especially in using OCaml for 3D-graphic-applications,
let me know.

Ciao,
   Oliver

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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Damien Doligez]

>From: John Max Skaller <skaller@ozemail.com.au>

>But there is no tree widget, and that is a mandatory widget.
>So Tk is broken, and not worth fixing.

[...]

>	4. OpenGL. Designed for 3D, not
>really having 2D widget toolkit, Standardised,
>originally produced by the top graphics company
>for high performance motion.

But there is no tree widget, and that is a mandatory widget.
So OpenGL is broken, and not worth fixing.

-- Damien
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Re: [Caml-list] OCamlSDL

[Christophe Raffalli]

If I got it right, GLUI (with an I not a T) is a (nice looking) set of
widgets written in openGL ... So an OCaml GLUI binding could be nice ...

-- 
Christophe Raffalli
Université de Savoie
Batiment Le Chablais, bureau 21
73376 Le Bourget-du-Lac Cedex

tél: (33) 4 79 75 81 03
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mail: Christophe.Raffalli@univ-savoie.fr
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