RE: AW: AW: [Caml-list] geany as an ocaml ide

["Jon Harrop" <jon@ffconsultancy.com>]

> I think the major point we raised here, that we all want the same from the
> editor: syntax highlighting, parsing in the background, invoking tools, editing
> over the network etc.

FWIW I'd put color syntax highlighting and autocompletion (like Intellisense) above all else.

Cheers,
Jon.

-----Original Message-----
From: caml-list-request@inria.fr [mailto:caml-list-request@inria.fr] On Behalf Of Wojciech Meyer
Sent: 13 February 2013 21:17
To: Gerd Stolpmann
Cc: Louis Gesbert; Martin DeMello; caml-list@inria.fr
Subject: Re: AW: AW: [Caml-list] geany as an ocaml ide

Gerd Stolpmann <info@gerd-stolpmann.de> writes:

> I can well imagine such a toolkit - basically an editor without user 
> interface. It would just consist of the underlying modules, and would 
> solve all difficult tasks - like incremental indentation, or 
> transparent network file access. Other developers can then pick things 
> up - only parts, or everything - and I'm sure we'll see then a couple 
> of GUIs on top of this, some expressive, some minimalistic, some 
> specializing on certain domains (web, GUI, etc.), some cloning emacs.
> And, as you write, existing editors can be "upgraded" by providing 
> bindings.

I think the major point we raised here, that we all want the same from the
editor: syntax highlighting, parsing in the background, invoking tools, editing over the network etc. However, each of us, have a completely different taste of how we interact with the editor and how we use the GUI. For one person this might be Emacs which wins, other prefer Code::Blocks. What matters here is not to focus on GUI but the features that would be accessible from the different frontends. (which seem to be a little hard, given diversity of the solutions on the market, but perhaps possible)

> Let's call this "editor" ModelOnly (following the common 
> model/view/controller abstraction).

Certainly one does not exclude the other option!

I just drew the border of the simple editor, and design requriments for the "ModelOnly".

> I completely agree that there are totally different requirements if 
> you compare the needs of beginners and professionals. However, this is 
> mostly a matter of presentation, and implementation-wise, there is a 
> lot of overlap, and also an editor for beginners would profit from a 
> good model library.

One could think about different incarnations of the same editor, did anybody think about Emacs, beginner mode, with CUA bindings and limited access to the functionality just so to make it easily accessible for the beginners?

>
> Gerd
>
>>
>> --
>> Wojciech Meyer
>> http://danmey.org
>>
>> PS: tramp is also one of the must have features to me in Emacs.
>>
>> Gerd Stolpmann <info@gerd-stolpmann.de> writes:
>>
>>
>> > Just to make an example: Personally, I'm still sticking to emacs 
>> > (although latest tuareg-mode is error-prone), mainly because it has
>> one
>> > killer feature: Tramp. You need to know that I'm often not building
>> my
>> > programs on the machine I'm sitting at, but I'm remotely logging in
>> to
>> > another machine (often over continents). Tramp is an emacs module 
>> > to edit files remotely via ssh/sftp.
>> Yes, I also require tramp.
>> >
>> > My guess is that there are many other users who would profit from
>> such
>> > a feature. Nevertheless, it is not popping up anywhere else -
>> strange
>> > enough, since we left the "PC" era long ago where everything had to 
>> > happen locally on your own computer. The IDEs seem not to have left 
>> > this era, and in a time where everything moves to the cloud this is 
>> > really anachronistic.
>> >
>> > It is clear to me that many features of IDEs are more difficult to 
>> > implement with such a requirement, as the latency to open files is
>> way
>> > higher. But on my side there is nothing to discuss, as remotely
>> editing
>> > files is more important than anything else.
>> >
>> > Another point from the perspective of a professional: There is 
>> > absolutely no need to integrate build support into the IDE (like 
>> > OCamlEditor tries to do). We have already utilities for this, and
>> these
>> > are scriptable - which is a MUST-HAVE for all professional use
>> (think
>> > of continuous integration, for instance).
>> >
>> > Gerd
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 12.02.2013 12:29:41 schrieb(en) Louis Gesbert:
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> No offence taken :). OCamlEditor indeed looks like a very
>> interesting
>> >> project,
>> >> with lots of features already present. But the scope and project 
>> >> goals are not the same though, so I think ocp-editor still has a 
>> >> place on its
>> own ;
>> >>
>> >> One of our main goals is to make IDE bricks available publicly, so
>> I
>> >> think the
>> >> projects can benefit to one another. I would be glad to borrow 
>> >> some widgets from OCamlEditor, and it could use automatic 
>> >> indentation or better toplevel process interaction.
>> >>
>> >> If the author -- Francesco Tovagliari -- is around here, I would 
>> >> be glad to know how he feels about this ?
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Louis Gesbert, OCamlPro
>> >>
>> >> Le mardi 12 février 2013 00:24:36, Martin DeMello a écrit :
>> >> > Hi Louis,
>> >> >
>> >> > That looks very interesting. Sorry if this seems like a rude
>> >> question;
>> >> > I truly don't mean it that way, but if your editor needs a few
>> >> months
>> >> > of work, why not work on a stripped-down interface for
>> OCamlEditor
>> >> > [http://ocamleditor.forge.ocamlcore.org/] instead? I remember
>> when I
>> >> > was learning web development I enjoyed using Evrsoft's "1st Page"
>> >> IDE,
>> >> > which had modes that would add or remove bits from the interface
>> as
>> >> > you progressed from beginner to power user, and something like
>> that
>> >> > would be very nice to have for OCaml.
>> >> >
>> >> > martin
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Louis Gesbert
>> >> >
>> >> > <louis.gesbert@ocamlpro.com> wrote:
>> >> > > OCaml is definitely lacking in this area; I am at the moment
>> >> working
>> >> > > precisely on solving this issue, with a dedicated Gtk editor
>> that
>> >> runs
>> >> > > on Linux, OSX and Windows. It is pretty basic at the moment 
>> >> > > but
>> >> already
>> >> > > has code edition and working toplevel interaction (no
>> compilation
>> >> or
>> >> > > project yet).
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Release is intended in a few months from now, with sufficient
>> >> features
>> >> > > for beginners and students. If successful, it will then be
>> >> extended to
>> >> > > handle bigger projects (multi-file, build system integration,
>> >> etc.).
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Until then, you may see the project's github page at 
>> >> > > https://github.com/OCamlPro/ocp-edit-simple (name temporary)
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > Louis Gesbert, OCamlPro
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Le Monday 11 February 2013 01:49:41, Martin DeMello a écrit :
>> >> > >> I spent some time last night going through all the "what is a
>> >> good
>> >> > >> (beginner's) ide for ocaml?" threads I could find online, and
>> >> trying
>> >> > >> out the various options suggested. I ruled out the following:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> * vim, emacs and eclipse (not beginner-friendly; people who
>> want
>> >> to
>> >> > >> use them will know how to do it)
>> >> > >> * anything that did not provide a binary install for Windows
>> and
>> >> OSX,
>> >> > >> and wasn't a simple configure/make/make install on linux
>> >> > >> * anything that needed fiddling with config files just to
>> >> install it
>> >> > >> * anything that needed the OCaml sources to be independently
>> >> present
>> >> > >> and configured (!)
>> >> > >> * anything that was abandoned, or didn't seem to support
>> OCaml 4
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> I was left with Geany and Komodo Edit as possibilities, and
>> >> Geany won
>> >> > >> out by letting me open up a test.ml file and immediately 
>> >> > >> being
>> >> able to
>> >> > >> find and run the OCaml compiler. At least on Linux, it was a
>> >> perfect
>> >> > >> beginner-friendly experience.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> So what do people think about ocaml.org officially promoting
>> >> Geany as
>> >> > >> the answer to "I'm learning OCaml; what is a good IDE?"? I'd
>> be
>> >> happy
>> >> > >> to write up a page on it and contribute it.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> martin
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > Caml-list mailing list.  Subscription management and archives:
>> >> > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
>> >> > > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
>> >> > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Caml-list mailing list.  Subscription management and archives:
>> >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany    gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de
>> > Creator of GODI and camlcity.org.
>> > Contact details:        http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html
>> > Company homepage:       http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>> Caml-list mailing list.  Subscription management and archives:
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>>

--
Wojciech Meyer
http://danmey.org

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