From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04AE37F20B for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:44:20 +0100 (CET) Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of jon@ffconsultancy.com) identity=pra; client-ip=212.159.14.20; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="jon@ffconsultancy.com"; x-sender="jon@ffconsultancy.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of jon@ffconsultancy.com) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=212.159.14.20; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="jon@ffconsultancy.com"; x-sender="jon@ffconsultancy.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@avasout08.plus.net) identity=helo; client-ip=212.159.14.20; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="jon@ffconsultancy.com"; x-sender="postmaster@avasout08.plus.net"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApgDAI8kHFHUnw4Uk2dsb2JhbABFhk+nLpFqBIEEFg4BAQEBCQkLCRQEI4IfAQEEAQgCGUoBCwUHAQMCCREEAQEBAgIJGgMCAhkjCQEJCAIEARIJAgUCCQSHYQMJCgitOYhKA4llgSOMIQcMOIJigRMDjgeJOpI8gWkCHgQ X-IPAS-Result: ApgDAI8kHFHUnw4Uk2dsb2JhbABFhk+nLpFqBIEEFg4BAQEBCQkLCRQEI4IfAQEEAQgCGUoBCwUHAQMCCREEAQEBAgIJGgMCAhkjCQEJCAIEARIJAgUCCQSHYQMJCgitOYhKA4llgSOMIQcMOIJigRMDjgeJOpI8gWkCHgQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,660,1355094000"; d="scan'208";a="2137039" Received: from avasout08.plus.net ([212.159.14.20]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 14 Feb 2013 00:32:28 +0100 Received: from XPS ([87.112.147.67]) by avasout08 with smtp id zzkG1k0011TUmgP01zkHCS; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:44:18 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=b6RsFK6x c=1 sm=1 a=cOgcBezV4hIL5ZjPdhFnwg==:17 a=cgYCjDWRO0YA:10 a=Xub9RBUEA-sA:10 a=Kvk-SOs2Z7YA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=r2vSxAw-AAAA:8 a=P-XSP7PLJH0A:10 a=FI9Ynt85AAAA:8 a=t0ZsSdnvAAAA:8 a=jhZHgnwhAAAA:8 a=NEAV23lmAAAA:8 a=YG86fJyiAAAA:8 a=ZOzjf2MOAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=eh8eaQhiAAAA:8 a=ZzUJ585tAAAA:8 a=4TIogAYEXM-DII6hTEMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=zPFvLC8Hz9YA:10 a=rJk57Y98B0kA:10 a=sE_MuvLReKQA:10 a=vocDLVfNm_QA:10 a=LOvE4L0YFigA:10 a=iXHw50dRcwve8780:21 a=AORqbFRP9Ecgn3Ku:21 a=cOgcBezV4hIL5ZjPdhFnwg==:117 X-AUTH: jdh302:2500 Reply-To: From: "Jon Harrop" To: "'Wojciech Meyer'" , "'Gerd Stolpmann'" Cc: "'Louis Gesbert'" , "'Martin DeMello'" , References: <1360775393.2379.8@samsung> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:44:21 -0000 Organization: Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd. Message-ID: <051201ce0a44$0d0be3e0$2723aba0$@ffconsultancy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFADU02yw6k8UA1OTVQ6XY2wH5SBQC7J9/TmY6T6LA= Content-Language: en-gb Subject: RE: AW: AW: [Caml-list] geany as an ocaml ide > I think the major point we raised here, that we all want the same from the > editor: syntax highlighting, parsing in the background, invoking tools, e= diting > over the network etc. FWIW I'd put color syntax highlighting and autocompletion (like Intellisens= e) above all else. Cheers, Jon. -----Original Message----- From: caml-list-request@inria.fr [mailto:caml-list-request@inria.fr] On Beh= alf Of Wojciech Meyer Sent: 13 February 2013 21:17 To: Gerd Stolpmann Cc: Louis Gesbert; Martin DeMello; caml-list@inria.fr Subject: Re: AW: AW: [Caml-list] geany as an ocaml ide Gerd Stolpmann writes: > I can well imagine such a toolkit - basically an editor without user=20 > interface. It would just consist of the underlying modules, and would=20 > solve all difficult tasks - like incremental indentation, or=20 > transparent network file access. Other developers can then pick things=20 > up - only parts, or everything - and I'm sure we'll see then a couple=20 > of GUIs on top of this, some expressive, some minimalistic, some=20 > specializing on certain domains (web, GUI, etc.), some cloning emacs. > And, as you write, existing editors can be "upgraded" by providing=20 > bindings. I think the major point we raised here, that we all want the same from the editor: syntax highlighting, parsing in the background, invoking tools, edi= ting over the network etc. However, each of us, have a completely different= taste of how we interact with the editor and how we use the GUI. For one p= erson this might be Emacs which wins, other prefer Code::Blocks. What matte= rs here is not to focus on GUI but the features that would be accessible fr= om the different frontends. (which seem to be a little hard, given diversit= y of the solutions on the market, but perhaps possible) > Let's call this "editor" ModelOnly (following the common=20 > model/view/controller abstraction). Certainly one does not exclude the other option! I just drew the border of the simple editor, and design requriments for the= "ModelOnly". > I completely agree that there are totally different requirements if=20 > you compare the needs of beginners and professionals. However, this is=20 > mostly a matter of presentation, and implementation-wise, there is a=20 > lot of overlap, and also an editor for beginners would profit from a=20 > good model library. One could think about different incarnations of the same editor, did anybod= y think about Emacs, beginner mode, with CUA bindings and limited access to= the functionality just so to make it easily accessible for the beginners? > > Gerd > >> >> -- >> Wojciech Meyer >> http://danmey.org >> >> PS: tramp is also one of the must have features to me in Emacs. >> >> Gerd Stolpmann writes: >> >> >> > Just to make an example: Personally, I'm still sticking to emacs=20 >> > (although latest tuareg-mode is error-prone), mainly because it has >> one >> > killer feature: Tramp. You need to know that I'm often not building >> my >> > programs on the machine I'm sitting at, but I'm remotely logging in >> to >> > another machine (often over continents). Tramp is an emacs module=20 >> > to edit files remotely via ssh/sftp. >> Yes, I also require tramp. >> > >> > My guess is that there are many other users who would profit from >> such >> > a feature. Nevertheless, it is not popping up anywhere else - >> strange >> > enough, since we left the "PC" era long ago where everything had to=20 >> > happen locally on your own computer. The IDEs seem not to have left=20 >> > this era, and in a time where everything moves to the cloud this is=20 >> > really anachronistic. >> > >> > It is clear to me that many features of IDEs are more difficult to=20 >> > implement with such a requirement, as the latency to open files is >> way >> > higher. But on my side there is nothing to discuss, as remotely >> editing >> > files is more important than anything else. >> > >> > Another point from the perspective of a professional: There is=20 >> > absolutely no need to integrate build support into the IDE (like=20 >> > OCamlEditor tries to do). We have already utilities for this, and >> these >> > are scriptable - which is a MUST-HAVE for all professional use >> (think >> > of continuous integration, for instance). >> > >> > Gerd >> > >> > >> > Am 12.02.2013 12:29:41 schrieb(en) Louis Gesbert: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> No offence taken :). OCamlEditor indeed looks like a very >> interesting >> >> project, >> >> with lots of features already present. But the scope and project=20 >> >> goals are not the same though, so I think ocp-editor still has a=20 >> >> place on its >> own ; >> >> >> >> One of our main goals is to make IDE bricks available publicly, so >> I >> >> think the >> >> projects can benefit to one another. I would be glad to borrow=20 >> >> some widgets from OCamlEditor, and it could use automatic=20 >> >> indentation or better toplevel process interaction. >> >> >> >> If the author -- Francesco Tovagliari -- is around here, I would=20 >> >> be glad to know how he feels about this ? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Louis Gesbert, OCamlPro >> >> >> >> Le mardi 12 f=C3=A9vrier 2013 00:24:36, Martin DeMello a =C3=A9crit : >> >> > Hi Louis, >> >> > >> >> > That looks very interesting. Sorry if this seems like a rude >> >> question; >> >> > I truly don't mean it that way, but if your editor needs a few >> >> months >> >> > of work, why not work on a stripped-down interface for >> OCamlEditor >> >> > [http://ocamleditor.forge.ocamlcore.org/] instead? I remember >> when I >> >> > was learning web development I enjoyed using Evrsoft's "1st Page" >> >> IDE, >> >> > which had modes that would add or remove bits from the interface >> as >> >> > you progressed from beginner to power user, and something like >> that >> >> > would be very nice to have for OCaml. >> >> > >> >> > martin >> >> > >> >> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Louis Gesbert >> >> > >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > OCaml is definitely lacking in this area; I am at the moment >> >> working >> >> > > precisely on solving this issue, with a dedicated Gtk editor >> that >> >> runs >> >> > > on Linux, OSX and Windows. It is pretty basic at the moment=20 >> >> > > but >> >> already >> >> > > has code edition and working toplevel interaction (no >> compilation >> >> or >> >> > > project yet). >> >> > > >> >> > > Release is intended in a few months from now, with sufficient >> >> features >> >> > > for beginners and students. If successful, it will then be >> >> extended to >> >> > > handle bigger projects (multi-file, build system integration, >> >> etc.). >> >> > > >> >> > > Until then, you may see the project's github page at=20 >> >> > > https://github.com/OCamlPro/ocp-edit-simple (name temporary) >> >> > > >> >> > > -- >> >> > > Louis Gesbert, OCamlPro >> >> > > >> >> > > Le Monday 11 February 2013 01:49:41, Martin DeMello a =C3=A9crit : >> >> > >> I spent some time last night going through all the "what is a >> >> good >> >> > >> (beginner's) ide for ocaml?" threads I could find online, and >> >> trying >> >> > >> out the various options suggested. I ruled out the following: >> >> > >> >> >> > >> * vim, emacs and eclipse (not beginner-friendly; people who >> want >> >> to >> >> > >> use them will know how to do it) >> >> > >> * anything that did not provide a binary install for Windows >> and >> >> OSX, >> >> > >> and wasn't a simple configure/make/make install on linux >> >> > >> * anything that needed fiddling with config files just to >> >> install it >> >> > >> * anything that needed the OCaml sources to be independently >> >> present >> >> > >> and configured (!) >> >> > >> * anything that was abandoned, or didn't seem to support >> OCaml 4 >> >> > >> >> >> > >> I was left with Geany and Komodo Edit as possibilities, and >> >> Geany won >> >> > >> out by letting me open up a test.ml file and immediately=20 >> >> > >> being >> >> able to >> >> > >> find and run the OCaml compiler. At least on Linux, it was a >> >> perfect >> >> > >> beginner-friendly experience. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> So what do people think about ocaml.org officially promoting >> >> Geany as >> >> > >> the answer to "I'm learning OCaml; what is a good IDE?"? I'd >> be >> >> happy >> >> > >> to write up a page on it and contribute it. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> martin >> >> > > >> >> > > -- >> >> > > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: >> >> > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list >> >> > > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> >> > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: >> >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list >> >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de >> > Creator of GODI and camlcity.org. >> > Contact details: http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html >> > Company homepage: http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> -- >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >> -- Wojciech Meyer http://danmey.org -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs=3D