From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F28BC88 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:06:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from pauillac.inria.fr (pauillac.inria.fr [128.93.11.35]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j13K6J0s027109 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:06:19 +0100 Received: from nez-perce.inria.fr (nez-perce.inria.fr [192.93.2.78]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA22964 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:06:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by nez-perce.inria.fr (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j13K6Hd2027105 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:06:18 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp212-197.lns2.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.212.197]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j13K6EFU098043; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:36:15 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Estimating the size of the ocaml community From: skaller Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net To: Thomas Fischbacher Cc: Erik de Castro Lopo , caml-list In-Reply-To: References: <891bd33905020213315a2ebb18@mail.gmail.com> <8008871f05020213362d21ba87@mail.gmail.com> <000f01c50971$baad4840$0100a8c0@mshome.net> <1107403128.32586.223.camel@pelican.wigram> <20050203173556.4acec1c5.ocaml-erikd@mega-nerd.com> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1107461173.14589.91.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 04 Feb 2005 07:06:13 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Miltered: at nez-perce with ID 4202843B.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr)! X-Miltered: at nez-perce with ID 42028439.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr)! X-Spam: no; 0.00; caml-list:01 ocaml:01 sourceforge:01 wrote:01 ocaml:01 interfacing:01 trivial:01 compiler:01 compiler:01 model:01 prototyping:01 jocaml:01 xduce:01 humps:01 runtime:01 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on yquem.inria.fr X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Level: On Fri, 2005-02-04 at 05:06, Thomas Fischbacher wrote: > Anyway, this leaves us with a very interesting question: how many people > actually do believe in the value of Ocaml? I, for myself, use it whenever > it is the most appropriate tool for a job (usually, when portability is > an issue). This is sometimes the case, but more often than not, LISP > turned out to be a better choice for what I do. Well .. [skaller@pelican] ~/links/flx/src>wc *.ml 89737 342248 3223570 total 90K Camls here speak for themselves .. Ocaml has four downsides from my viewpoint: (a) interfacing to C isn't trivial (b) native code compiler on x86 can't make a shared library To a large extent these two factors are not only the reason for those 90K lines (which implement a compiler) but also the reason I'll probably have to bootstrap the compiler away from Ocaml. (c) the Cathedral+Bazaar development model of the language, about which I have mixed feelings. This seems to be good for the core compiler, but gets in the way of improving the other tools and the library. (d) Not many Open Source developers know Ocaml, so it is hard to get help on Open Source projects However none of these factors relate to Ocaml as a *language* on its own, they're all industrial concerns. I also use C/C++ (for C/C++ compatibility -- lol!) and Python (for rapid development/scripting). Felix aims to replace all of them (high performance functional and procedural code with rapid prototyping/scripting harness and C/C++ compatibility), but I wouldn't dream of building it without a high level language such as Ocaml as the bootstrap. So apart from being the build tool for the current version, Ocaml is also the principle inspiration for the design, which is another 'value' of Ocaml that should not be discounted, and in keeping with its role as a combined academic/research and industrial language. Other languages (JoCaml, C/XDuce .. many more see the Humps) would also credit Ocaml not only as the build tool, but also a key source of inspiration, and many use the Ocaml runtime even though the source language is distinct. On the flip side, a huge industrial user base might be a signicant impediment to improvements to Ocaml -- at present the INRIA team can assume a client base fairly receptive to changes and willing to give the implementors considerably latitude in many areas. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net