From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <yminsky@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BE0BBAF
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:52:15 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApUCAMdVuknRVd2Cm2dsb2JhbACCUZInPwEBAQEBCAkKCRGqGAeBAI8HAQMBA4N7BoR8
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,359,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25571796"
Received: from mail-qy0-f130.google.com ([209.85.221.130])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2009 20:52:15 +0100
Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so3146634qyk.1
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:content-type;
        bh=NOT93v8gxCwvDrjRftcXWFBP10NUM2FfE6QvuQbuALk=;
        b=fZew0lB5dWH6v12hcv5A0xKFk0bG31LHx6wWfUMYkcLcdvKZZvJd4OkHeRqs0Y7hD4
         DhCx+VLFnABTJl2Hg5fuuI/yU1cxKtps+myMbERP2coAEAXdwx6ghWvGw2Xqxmas7ZZu
         mwAx5GvGDyPirZGbOxpB3dG4exbhWdhh0OQso=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type;
        b=M7kBMlzVaZ2IJ83Tmwuuurr5P0BozhfSZo7/WbPu0+gmozaj9pNc3GOMp4TQvRwna6
         yd2vc38Ls1v5pIMA5gemcqA3pK91+1mLiBrE2AIPehkBZr/STyGwwUrR3b04xO20FUNr
         bP0Nf4mV/iXke8TFnr0Gg52KmIWqJfVG7lZ9I=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.229.96.132 with SMTP id h4mr1644030qcn.65.1236973934126; Fri, 
	13 Mar 2009 12:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: yminsky@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:52:14 -0400
Message-ID: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: caml trading
From: Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>
To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636427377f0a8870465056f7c
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 ocaml:01 popl:01 ocaml:01 node:01 popl:01 node:01 caml:02 mentioning:03 mentioning:03 classes:08 classes:08 trading:90 

--001636427377f0a8870465056f7c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

For those who are interested, I just posted a video of a talk I gave at CMU
several weeks ago about Jane Street's use of OCaml.  This is an updated
version of the talk I gave at POPL last year.  Various people have expressed
an interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate classes, so I thought
it worth mentioning on the list.

Here's the link:

  http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=node/61

I can also provide the original quicktime file from which this is based on
request.

y

--001636427377f0a8870465056f7c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For those who are interested, I just posted a video of a talk I gave at CMU=
 several weeks ago about Jane Street&#39;s use of OCaml.=A0 This is an upda=
ted version of the talk I gave at POPL last year.=A0 Various people have ex=
pressed an interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate classes, so =
I thought it worth mentioning on the list.<br>
<br>Here&#39;s the link:<br><br>=A0 <a href=3D"http://ocaml.janestreet.com/=
?q=3Dnode/61">http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=3Dnode/61</a><br><br>I can als=
o provide the original quicktime file from which this is based on request.<=
br><br>
y<br>

--001636427377f0a8870465056f7c--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <padator@wanadoo.fr>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST 
	autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8CEBBAF
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 01:56:59 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlkBAEOdukmArgVhkWdsb2JhbACMdIhCAQEBAQkLCgcRBLo2B4N3Bg
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,361,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="24307546"
Received: from expredir6.cites.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.97])
  by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 14 Mar 2009 01:56:58 +0100
Received: from axyr (aryx.cs.uiuc.edu [128.174.236.106])
	by expredir6.cites.uiuc.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n2E0usDp000385;
	Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:56:55 -0500 (CDT)
To: yminsky@gmail.com
Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
From: Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:56:49 -0500
In-Reply-To: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com> (Yaron Minsky's message of "Fri\, 13 Mar 2009 15\:52\:14 -0400")
Message-ID: <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 ocaml:01 popl:01 ocaml:01 node:01 beginner's:01 bug:01 blog:98 beginners:01 caml-list:01 caml-list:01 writes:01 bin:01 

Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> writes:

> For those who are interested, I just posted a video of a talk I gave at C=
MU
> several weeks ago about Jane Street's use of OCaml.=C2=A0 This is an upda=
ted version
> of the talk I gave at POPL last year.=C2=A0 Various people have expressed=
 an
> interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate classes, so I thought=
 it
> worth mentioning on the list.
>
> Here's the link:
>
> =C2=A0 http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=3Dnode/61
>
> I can also provide the original quicktime file from which this is based on
> request.

Great talk. I love that some people are doing business
with such a great language, and all the stuff Jane Street is doing
around OCaml is really cool (the open source library, the blog,=20
the summer project).=20

Having said that, about your company, Jane Street,
aren't you part of the people that put the countries in such trouble ?=20
Do you create wealth ? It seems you are just a parasite ... that
exploits some loopholes in the system.

PS: I applied to your company 3 years ago, and got rejected,=20
so I may be biased :)=20

>
> y
> _______________________________________________
> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management:
> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list
> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <jon@ffconsultancy.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=disabled 
	version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34471BBAF
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:20:00 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnQBALv3uknUnwckk2dsb2JhbACCHZMaAQEBAQkJCgkRBLoFg34G
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,362,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="22553303"
Received: from relay.ptn-ipout02.plus.net ([212.159.7.36])
  by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 14 Mar 2009 08:20:00 +0100
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aq4FAH73uknUnw6T/2dsb2JhbACCHc1dg34G
Received: from ptb-relay03.plus.net ([212.159.14.147])
  by relay.ptn-ipout02.plus.net with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2009 07:19:59 +0000
Received: from [87.115.65.144] (helo=leper.local)
	 by ptb-relay03.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1LiOA3-0006YF-92; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 07:19:59 +0000
From: Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com>
Organization: Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
To: yminsky@gmail.com, caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 07:25:32 +0000
User-Agent: KMail/1.9.9
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
  charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Message-Id: <200903140725.32884.jon@ffconsultancy.com>
X-Plusnet-Relay: 87cfbb703998c5c6fec52ad32da8e21f
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 ocaml:01 popl:01 parallelism:01 2009:98 frog:98 wrote:01 caml-list:01 caml:02 handles:03 mentioning:03 problem:05 painless:93 efficient:07 

On Friday 13 March 2009 19:52:14 Yaron Minsky wrote:
> For those who are interested, I just posted a video of a talk I gave at CMU
> several weeks ago about Jane Street's use of OCaml.  This is an updated
> version of the talk I gave at POPL last year.  Various people have
> expressed an interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate classes,
> so I thought it worth mentioning on the list.

Very interesting. I do have a couple of points:

. If you want to see shared-memory parallelism done right look at Cilk. It is 
both painless and incredibly efficient.

. I don't know how F# handles nulls but it has never caused me a problem and 
I've used many .NET libraries from F# including MDX, WPF, XNA and, of course, 
the framework itself.

-- 
Dr Jon Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/?e


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <yminsky@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE2BBBAF
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:25:07 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoBAEyFu0nRVd2CmGdsb2JhbACCT5IxPwEBAQEBCAkMBxGkJgeBAEqNfgEDAQODfAaFAw
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,363,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25601893"
Received: from mail-qy0-f130.google.com ([209.85.221.130])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2009 18:25:07 +0100
Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so3494558qyk.1
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to
         :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
        bh=xlvy4Yz6qS5yqLlOukhDaQ2Si7r5ty6ISJt9zL7Fdnc=;
        b=ALM9M+iBCf1g0oClLfwxNxk+a3Y9EHsmEohVGJj496UFAsLo4hyJ+sMnO3icrP9r3I
         9oOjkBH2wv3igE67Ch2LjYW3hq9INULFKIeDh+WS1f6ttZ2Ch9Vm5vYzGBXEb4AYw9yk
         vzSyQOGCVh7bjk5p3aeB8GqymRDGMjwInLkSQ=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
        b=k0LACBg5Iq+GorYXea13GS7wtn7i5w+TBLeoHwvaz/nsgHQQetK3cNMOaEGnbjrraE
         YL9mZk0wFRh662HwzLTiVaHhlGvsc4smB4xy63DC62nhobgwkGhqiGgPfTVu4YTm+tTN
         HS2v/Q/zKQjMnoha1G7nsiYKMRDDD9/LgXny8=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.229.73.136 with SMTP id q8mr1731740qcj.28.1237051504187; Sat, 
	14 Mar 2009 10:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: yminsky@gmail.com
In-Reply-To: <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:25:04 -0400
Message-ID: <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>
To: Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr>
Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364ee13079dae20465177f8c
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 2009:98 2009:98 wrote:01 wrote:01 caml-list:01 caml:02 seems:03 seems:03 fri:05 fri:05 flavor:08 flavor:08 

--0016364ee13079dae20465177f8c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

>
> Having said that, about your company, Jane Street,
> aren't you part of the people that put the countries in such trouble ?
> Do you create wealth ? It seems you are just a parasite ... that
> exploits some loopholes in the system.
>

What Jane Street does is very far from the part of finance---and the ways of
thinking---that caused these troubles.  You can't just lump all of finance
together as "the guys who caused the trouble"; that would be like condemning
all engineers for

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Fi1VcbpAI

The beginning of the talk gives a flavor of role that Jane Street actually
does play in the markets, so that's a good thing to watch if you're
interested.

y

--0016364ee13079dae20465177f8c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Yoann Padioleau <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:padator@wanadoo.fr">padator@wanadoo.fr</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bo=
rder-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding=
-left: 1ex;">
<div><div></div><br></div>
Having said that, about your company, Jane Street,<br>
aren&#39;t you part of the people that put the countries in such trouble ?<=
br>
Do you create wealth ? It seems you are just a parasite ... that<br>
exploits some loopholes in the system.<br></blockquote></div><br>What Jane =
Street does is very far from the part of finance---and the
ways of thinking---that caused these troubles.=A0 You can&#39;t just lump a=
ll
of finance together as &quot;the guys who caused the trouble&quot;; that wo=
uld be
like condemning all engineers for<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DP0Fi1VcbpAI" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DP0Fi1VcbpAI</a><br><br>The beginning o=
f the talk gives a flavor of role that Jane Street actually does play in th=
e markets, so that&#39;s a good thing to watch if you&#39;re interested.<br=
>
<br>y<br>

--0016364ee13079dae20465177f8c--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <gordon.j.miller@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB14BBAF
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 20:30:01 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhwCANOiu0nRVdypkWdsb2JhbACUfz8BAQEBCQkMBw+kWYEHjjgBAwEDg3wG
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,363,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="22571748"
Received: from mail-fx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.220.169])
  by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2009 20:30:01 +0100
Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17so3137075fxm.27
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 12:30:00 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=k0UfYf5+hDkKfFgM1vUGhBftygD1sElGHY5QpsXdkX8=;
        b=KLTxZMmaVNrh2H8GVj8PefIybxA6ZrdLtvKz5bs01buW3vTddqLNxxJk1zsffC8i5k
         aOupI6AgVKWLlgQUewR5jGmmXmScAh7HKSRKnAE+WkEOidi/INaxjwNUii86yvYotSHu
         VQucoLr6MBqG3EgHnV2wXEyf+kxoUvZNefgPM=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=vnxbsJoQ0s2pLq4pF5pZLaQgPlmk3mU2yqCz5X7SH4jYNyf3r4ygzzRQVVkbISeejP
         ZXa7Lq//z+x6KhsIsWRxrL513s2DJslykM/lOTb/ib/OYzzq5dx6RhLbp6SR9CLiyoVW
         RDCON+9BKBS9pWgHgQQvmMHTNjXWyRfWqIyVc=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.204.57.79 with SMTP id b15mr909499bkh.172.1237059000551; Sat, 
	14 Mar 2009 12:30:00 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:30:00 -0400
Message-ID: <beed19130903141230w4256ce56gb7591030764f1bca@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Jim Miller <gordon.j.miller@gmail.com>
To: yminsky@gmail.com
Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 ocaml:01 popl:01 ocaml:01 node:01 2009:98 caml-list:01 caml:02 mentioning:03 balanced:04 drawbacks:05 describing:06 discussion:06 

2009/3/13 Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>:
> For those who are interested, I just posted a video of a talk I gave at C=
MU
> several weeks ago about Jane Street's use of OCaml.=A0 This is an updated
> version of the talk I gave at POPL last year.=A0 Various people have expr=
essed
> an interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate classes, so I thou=
ght
> it worth mentioning on the list.
>
> Here's the link:
>
> =A0 http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=3Dnode/61
>
> I can also provide the original quicktime file from which this is based o=
n
> request.
>

Thoroughly enjoyed the talk.  You did an excellent job of describing
the environment and business case for the language.  Your discussion
of the reasons why you use OCaml, its benefits, and its drawbacks was
very balanced and makes it more credible.  Well done and thanks for
sharing.


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <yminsky@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D50BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:20:45 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqkBAK/jvEnRVd2Cm2dsb2JhbACCUZIyPwEBAQEBCAkKCRGrJAeBAI1GAQMBA4N8BoUD
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,367,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="24354048"
Received: from mail-qy0-f130.google.com ([209.85.221.130])
  by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2009 19:20:44 +0100
Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so3810941qyk.1
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:20:43 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to
         :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
        bh=uGJVZGKQaD+6WJBB2hdSIx1fnDJlMLKTe19dpGywYAA=;
        b=Qau3HcYclDOzdLfI2Poesxmh25TXrWoOVALF2xNRPIUIuBGYjrBRhBB8MZE5QaxVwg
         ijnMOLCEqGGKYzaa0PdvlaTTxirqJNnHn3zI94winC7/a+0FSlE4WVJgGu7eyLr/2vp6
         93hXIOZSVa9oADZTpGuqIiofm9YTQxpltGaqk=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
        b=gaylfegW8LKuD+Ht/aMrlysiuLTwQ6wQ6Q1ornjjvmk+vvpijMh/MdaEEzY/BySvka
         DA70WfpFagpbI2fvDhWH4fmdOU38x1dVDoKLfkqvqc5ONOwzk6h14u3WbQtaX3yWgtlw
         hKGD0SDORVXtZ5g6sWPHx7PNquqHSZaO24aRM=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.229.85.14 with SMTP id m14mr1519130qcl.64.1237141243333; Sun, 
	15 Mar 2009 11:20:43 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: yminsky@gmail.com
In-Reply-To: <beed19130903141230w4256ce56gb7591030764f1bca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <beed19130903141230w4256ce56gb7591030764f1bca@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:20:43 -0400
Message-ID: <891bd3390903151120u42bfb1d8vf832c8875e676a55@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>
To: Jim Miller <gordon.j.miller@gmail.com>
Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163642749e588d7904652c64b3
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 ocaml:01 popl:01 ocaml:01 node:01 popl:01 node:01 2009:98 2009:98 wrote:01 

--00163642749e588d7904652c64b3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Jim Miller <gordon.j.miller@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2009/3/13 Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>:
> > For those who are interested, I just posted a video of a talk I gave at
> CMU
> > several weeks ago about Jane Street's use of OCaml.  This is an updated
> > version of the talk I gave at POPL last year.  Various people have
> expressed
> > an interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate classes, so I
> thought
> > it worth mentioning on the list.
> >
> > Here's the link:
> >
> >   http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=node/61
> >
> > I can also provide the original quicktime file from which this is based
> on
> > request.
> >
>
> Thoroughly enjoyed the talk.  You did an excellent job of describing
> the environment and business case for the language.  Your discussion
> of the reasons why you use OCaml, its benefits, and its drawbacks was
> very balanced and makes it more credible.  Well done and thanks for
> sharing.
>

Thanks.

--00163642749e588d7904652c64b3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Jim Miller <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gordon.j.miller@gmail.com">gordon.j.miller@gmail.com</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
2009/3/13 Yaron Minsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yminsky@gmail.com">yminsky@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; For those who are interested, I just=
 posted a video of a talk I gave at CMU<br>
&gt; several weeks ago about Jane Street&#39;s use of OCaml.=A0 This is an =
updated<br>
&gt; version of the talk I gave at POPL last year.=A0 Various people have e=
xpressed<br>
&gt; an interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate classes, so I t=
hought<br>
&gt; it worth mentioning on the list.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Here&#39;s the link:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 <a href=3D"http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=3Dnode/61" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=3Dnode/61</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I can also provide the original quicktime file from which this is base=
d on<br>
&gt; request.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div></div>Thoroughly enjoyed the talk. =A0You did an excellent job of des=
cribing<br>
the environment and business case for the language. =A0Your discussion<br>
of the reasons why you use OCaml, its benefits, and its drawbacks was<br>
very balanced and makes it more credible. =A0Well done and thanks for<br>
sharing.<br>
</blockquote></div><br>Thanks.<br>

--00163642749e588d7904652c64b3--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <yminsky@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DD1BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:26:18 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqkBANvkvEnRVd2Cm2dsb2JhbACCUZFOZD8BAQEBAQgJCgkRqyoHgQCNRAEDAQODfAaFAw
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,367,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25627182"
Received: from mail-qy0-f130.google.com ([209.85.221.130])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2009 19:26:17 +0100
Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so3812261qyk.1
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:26:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to
         :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
        bh=4CvPO98HzFCYP5lrJ8GXRUB8GstTNzUuKKgJaxQbycY=;
        b=nniQybKu7BdCfsu5q8uG1pZO/F+BTsQRPQSkEXD8jyotVWCRQk2RbZ0Dltd67XvX0+
         UWEZJrKgyaIOJfexjr4aYHuEF5h29+nO1fQFX4T3E2/jBqkvZnCEvnEUSdk0JGbeCC+8
         MFJnczRvuWSK6FEQInWn8hiLNmYknW9/11h48=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
        b=kHqqSwAkZUiJqjJUs04dDWVI7NOmfJ3DUlWSpwyRtSttw1S3ZdNWDSyswZGXa+gOV8
         B5jS7EQhYJ76RrD0eV4JTQWH5sADfJCuG48yDq4CYCtcPtN1UfJOtZYeMJjheG7/efcP
         exlhcxmykYutfSQ1uwTlmPqBRMAUwlhfp+Og8=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.229.85.21 with SMTP id m21mr1481285qcl.9.1237141576418; Sun, 
	15 Mar 2009 11:26:16 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: yminsky@gmail.com
In-Reply-To: <200903140725.32884.jon@ffconsultancy.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <200903140725.32884.jon@ffconsultancy.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:26:16 -0400
Message-ID: <891bd3390903151126h31b951c6rbe85effaf0e5bcc2@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>
To: Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com>
Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163630f70733054d04652c78f7
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 ocaml:01 popl:01 parallelism:01 ocaml:01 popl:01 parallelism:01 2009:98 2009:98 wrote:01 wrote:01 

--00163630f70733054d04652c78f7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 3:25 AM, Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:

> On Friday 13 March 2009 19:52:14 Yaron Minsky wrote:
> > For those who are interested, I just posted a video of a talk I gave at
> CMU
> > several weeks ago about Jane Street's use of OCaml.  This is an updated
> > version of the talk I gave at POPL last year.  Various people have
> > expressed an interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate classes,
> > so I thought it worth mentioning on the list.
>
> Very interesting. I do have a couple of points:
>
> . If you want to see shared-memory parallelism done right look at Cilk. It
> is
> both painless and incredibly efficient.


I know about Cilk, but I'll go back and look at it again.  Thanks for the
suggestion.


> . I don't know how F# handles nulls but it has never caused me a problem
> and
> I've used many .NET libraries from F# including MDX, WPF, XNA and, of
> course,
> the framework itself.


Interesting.  I haven't done a ton of F# hacking, so I don't know the
details, but several people who work at Jane Street have stubbed their toe
on this.  It's quite possible that it mostly just doesn't come up, if you
code in the appropriate style.

And as I tried to say in the talk, F# definitely has a lot to recommend it.
It's just not a good match for us.

y

--00163630f70733054d04652c78f7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 3:25 AM, Jon Harrop <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jon@ffconsultancy.com">jon@ffconsultancy.com</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On Friday 13 March 2009 19:52:14 Yaron Minsky wrote:<br>
&gt; For those who are interested, I just posted a video of a talk I gave a=
t CMU<br>
&gt; several weeks ago about Jane Street&#39;s use of OCaml. =A0This is an =
updated<br>
&gt; version of the talk I gave at POPL last year. =A0Various people have<b=
r>
&gt; expressed an interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate class=
es,<br>
&gt; so I thought it worth mentioning on the list.<br>
<br>
</div>Very interesting. I do have a couple of points:<br>
<br>
. If you want to see shared-memory parallelism done right look at Cilk. It =
is<br>
both painless and incredibly efficient.</blockquote><div><br>I know about C=
ilk, but I&#39;ll go back and look at it again.=A0 Thanks for the suggestio=
n.=A0<br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bor=
der-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-=
left: 1ex;">

. I don&#39;t know how F# handles nulls but it has never caused me a proble=
m and<br>
I&#39;ve used many .NET libraries from F# including MDX, WPF, XNA and, of c=
ourse,<br>
the framework itself.</blockquote><div><br>Interesting.=A0 I haven&#39;t do=
ne a ton of F# hacking, so I don&#39;t know the details, but several people=
 who work at Jane Street have stubbed their toe on this.=A0 It&#39;s quite =
possible that it mostly just doesn&#39;t come up, if you code in the approp=
riate style.<br>
<br>And as I tried to say in the talk, F# definitely has a lot to recommend=
 it.=A0 It&#39;s just not a good match for us.<br><br>y<br></div><div><br>=
=A0<br></div></div><br>

--00163630f70733054d04652c78f7--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <padator@wanadoo.fr>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST 
	autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.105])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5725BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:24:16 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AkEBAGn9vUmArgVgkWdsb2JhbACVQgEBAQEJCwoHEQSxfIxxB4N4Bg
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,373,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="36620871"
Received: from expredir5.cites.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.96])
  by mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Mar 2009 15:24:15 +0100
Received: from axyr (aryx.cs.uiuc.edu [128.174.236.106])
	by expredir5.cites.uiuc.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n2GEOBAW019175;
	Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:24:11 -0500 (CDT)
To: yminsky@gmail.com
Cc: Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr>, caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	<891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
From: Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:24:02 -0500
In-Reply-To: <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com> (Yaron Minsky's message of "Sat\, 14 Mar 2009 13\:25\:04 -0400")
Message-ID: <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 2009:98 arbitrage:98 wrote:01 caml-list:01 writes:01 caml:02 seems:03 fri:05 banks:92 flavor:08 trading:90 selling:89 

Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr> wro=
te:
>
>
>     Having said that, about your company, Jane Street,
>     aren't you part of the people that put the countries in such trouble ?
>     Do you create wealth ? It seems you are just a parasite ... that
>     exploits some loopholes in the system.
>
>
> What Jane Street does is very far from the part of finance---and the ways=
 of
> thinking---that caused these troubles.=C2=A0 You can't just lump all of f=
inance
> together as "the guys who caused the trouble"; that would be like condemn=
ing
> all engineers for
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DP0Fi1VcbpAI

Sure.=20

>
> The beginning of the talk gives a flavor of role that Jane Street actuall=
y does
> play in the markets, so that's a good thing to watch if you're interested.

I did watch the video, that's why I asked the question. From the video
it sounds like your are buying and selling things on the market
at the micro-second level. I don't see any value, any wealth created
doing that. The only thing that come to my mind is that there should
be a law that forbid such micro-transactions. I can see the
value of banks, of investors, I don't understand the value
of "arbitrage". To make money flow better ? ...


>
> y


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <gordon.j.miller@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377CFBBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:30:15 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Al4CAEf/vUnRVdypkWdsb2JhbACVAz8BAQEBCQkMBw+wWIEHjTgBAwEDg3wG
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,373,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25668443"
Received: from mail-fx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.220.169])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2009 15:30:14 +0100
Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17so3822211fxm.27
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 07:30:14 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=V/9dkHIo4PnJBZoi6V9z+7j8K45YCoWWUwrREtbHWaY=;
        b=rIV3zqVQCMnFzgrQuOS6calnwjZrNmXT3hJKZddZ+XdUCS2VeCouCbs9WRxACk4jzR
         F8HmAduJGQbdubaSteTca6wl0z6+mMzSo+BEsXiSpfy9rJxwnraCZsIsBqvqpEfTn24N
         9P9EzuY4nZcZHClvuVe64syx8GiaPX2TqtYuI=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=XxdBstjB8PP2L0lqHH5Mn65nLm4GaOvBfpC93C/wqJAyju1ULZY/PhN6FaGPv7Y+IV
         oODkFhjX++SND8TRRwFYoD+iZGlJHAcKn5NBgveJ6ee7a9sLFMn3HI2b6nlaMG/lh20l
         9P9SdijeuOJn3vk6uvfQaApSqPrfoZbonUot4=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.204.124.7 with SMTP id s7mr1622071bkr.52.1237213814290; Mon, 
	16 Mar 2009 07:30:14 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:30:14 -0400
Message-ID: <beed19130903160730w7640ae24ib0a3194ed81944dd@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Jim Miller <gordon.j.miller@gmail.com>
To: Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr>
Cc: yminsky@gmail.com, caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam: no; 0.00; wikipedia:01 wiki:01 ocaml:01 arbitrage:98 arbitrage:98 blogs:98 caml-list:01 caml:02 programming:03 i'd:06 investment:93 probably:07 banks:92 flavor:08 expand:08 

>>
>> The beginning of the talk gives a flavor of role that Jane Street actually does
>> play in the markets, so that's a good thing to watch if you're interested.
>
> I did watch the video, that's why I asked the question. From the video
> it sounds like your are buying and selling things on the market
> at the micro-second level. I don't see any value, any wealth created
> doing that. The only thing that come to my mind is that there should
> be a law that forbid such micro-transactions. I can see the
> value of banks, of investors, I don't understand the value
> of "arbitrage". To make money flow better ? ...
>
>

The Internet is a wonderful thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage

Now, attempting to keep this focused on what was a good talk.

You discussed the issues that Jane Street has in "programming in the
large."  We have a small OCaml investment here and we are probably
going to significantly expand that.  While I know that time is a huge
factor, I'd be very interested in any blogs or writings you have on
what specific techniques you used to help with these issues.  In
particular, the build process that you use.  I've seen you mention in
the past on this list that you've had issues with some the existing
build tools.


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <markus.mottl@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE9BBBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:31:53 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao0CAFcNvklKfS4eimdsb2JhbACCfpIFPwEBAQoJDAcPBbILgQeNQAEDAQOCOYFDBg
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,373,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25673220"
Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.46.30])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2009 16:31:53 +0100
Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 2so792853ywt.3
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 08:31:52 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=nvtrkk2l1XQyw0q8JFZn5lH41HyAaoopaTWBclVMB7M=;
        b=oYzOiqzEBoT7MSjSufU/34bJtQq7fhVnxI9a4r9LpSXv3N//HAq3bXXytggIsypW21
         tCPxsR0SuD8+27wmbbX6l9AUA9XKg8m6zIxJyn8Y+Hzl4Tk5mxsxsV0hjzPzcdEIFKCf
         ccouaiQfnok3fL3TBOp+8B1SOKF5LVtK6bTew=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=xi/tDC9U5lw4HyDmdaYw1EcQlUWPk+uATnyfS30NRyJvhdxqc9tYaRj62BkvnFbX7X
         vlH7sEPEnrtS6kt3Nk5gkeZWLEVxvGJp7KPahM6G8O7CSqFHTB2ABRv79btBito6ds53
         MtVvbbCFgTrRTfWGPrRDzud7jTPsL37GM+mrI=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.90.84.17 with SMTP id h17mr571807agb.31.1237217512136; Mon, 16 
	Mar 2009 08:31:52 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:31:52 -0400
Message-ID: <f8560b80903160831w6256f9cbof91f6596d736b49e@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Markus Mottl <markus.mottl@gmail.com>
To: Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr>
Cc: yminsky@gmail.com, caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam: no; 0.00; markus:01 mottl:01 markus:01 mottl:01 on-topic:01 subjective:01 fairness:01 milliseconds:01 ocaml:01 wikipedia:01 ocaml:01 2009:98 arbitrage:98 trader:98 grocery:98 

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 10:24, Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> I did watch the video, that's why I asked the question. From the video
> it sounds like your are buying and selling things on the market
> at the micro-second level. I don't see any value, any wealth created
> doing that. The only thing that come to my mind is that there should
> be a law that forbid such micro-transactions. I can see the
> value of banks, of investors, I don't understand the value
> of "arbitrage". To make money flow better ? ...

This is clearly not on-topic for this list, but since it may be of
interest to OCaml-developers who want to work with us, let me quickly
dispel this unfortunately very common misconception concerning the way
markets work and what the actual service is that market makers /
traders like us (and in general) provide.

First of all, what do you think would be a "fair" average period that
traders should hold their positions?  Ten years?  Three months?  One
nanosecond?  It's clear that different people might have different
subjective opinions on fairness so any of the above would then just be
an arbitrary choice.

But there are clearly economic reasons for transaction speed.  E.g. a
trader in a grocery store surely won't buy and sell apples within
milliseconds.  Even if it were physically possible, we would certainly
expect that the required infrastructure would be too expensive.  It is
hard to imagine that the added benefit in more accurately meeting
demand for apples is big enough that customers would be willing to pay
the extra cost for that level of service.

Thus here we have it: cost and profit, these are the determinants of
how fast you should trade.  It is costly for us to be able to trade
fast: you may need to buy very expensive computer equipment, pay a lot
of money for realtime financial information, and, most importantly,
hire good OCaml hackers (a rare species!).  As long as the extra cost
of investment is at least compensated by extra profits (look up
"marginalism" on Wikipedia), it is economically advisable to trade
faster.

What is now the added benefit for society?  How do you personally
benefit from companies like ours?  This is easily explained, just
imagine we did not exist.  We can only be profitable by providing
better prices than competitors, otherwise nobody would trade with us
on a given market.  Therefore, if we didn't exist, you would have to
pay a higher price to somebody else.  Same if you want to sell again:
you would receive less for your investment from a competitor, thus
making you worse off.

Thus, besides providing wonderful jobs for OCaml-hackers, our company
makes it cheaper for people to invest their hard-earned money by
providing extra liquidity on financial markets.

Regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Mottl        http://www.ocaml.info        markus.mottl@gmail.com


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <aditya.siram@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: ***
X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.0 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HTML_MESSAGE,MISSING_HEADERS,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled 
	version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA8BBBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:01:17 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsIDAHkivklKfVwYi2dsb2JhbACCUYogCIcpYT8BAQEKCwoHDwWyEIEHjV0BAwEDg3wG
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,374,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25680323"
Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.24])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2009 18:01:16 +0100
Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so1764849qwe.15
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:cc:content-type;
        bh=QmTsKBGxzM4jd1SJxZEJWACxtjFg865aKD3Bgz9LJGg=;
        b=xzXEtvxsbfnf7OEtrEzROFFNbx9S3IOKCUxLAJDbl6zc5vxB7MIY24O/FdXMQbX1Wn
         j2pi5nl/WNc7BqBZmXXkkKUCxMWwyOHmjlFgiLEk9dbX6AS69/Fl4itAx8pjsMMCztrj
         EX+Q8iT2tAj2nUpzLFAQyvV6y8WyyAJkL+nug=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc
         :content-type;
        b=s+7vTFVxRpXMhVxjOn3jhf8yHhSPXNtCt0S8lK2z1bqwuI8qOiNhlYr0oAyvPLP9t3
         rv0kMuAgN2DtQ+lrY1nG0rJL/VYY5Xo78zJGG/79uy3WljM/NWBwEjKIk6T2UssR2dEy
         c8lu/AnbuYduqeJIWQK92/kA1Cs6SRqt9FOW0=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.224.73.143 with SMTP id q15mr6032854qaj.189.1237222876035; 
	Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:01:15 -0500
Message-ID: <594f78210903161001k685fc9ccnb4f566c342e2bfca@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: aditya siram <aditya.siram@gmail.com>
Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cd56008c15f04653f66d7
X-Spam: no; 0.00; compiler:01 compiler:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 ocaml:01 popl:01 ocaml:01 node:01 beginner's:01 bug:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 popl:01 

--0015175cd56008c15f04653f66d7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks for this awesome video! I was unaware that the Caml compiler did not
optimize source code before generating native code. Now I am a little less
afraid to study the actual compiler!

Your point about a lack of  GUI libraries is great - however it seems as
though they are not as important as they once were. The amazing javascript
toolkits [1] that have sprung up over the last year (along with the Ocsigen
and OBrower project [2]) have filled most of that vaccum.

As long as there are libraries that provide an easy way to hook up with a
web client is there still a compelling reason to develop native GUI
toolkits?

Regards
-Aditya Siram



[1] http://www.sproutcore.com/ , http://qooxdoo.org/ ,
http://cappuccino.org/
[2] http://ocsigen.org/

2009/3/13 Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>

> For those who are interested, I just posted a video of a talk I gave at CMU
> several weeks ago about Jane Street's use of OCaml.  This is an updated
> version of the talk I gave at POPL last year.  Various people have expressed
> an interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate classes, so I thought
> it worth mentioning on the list.
>
> Here's the link:
>
>   http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=node/61
>
> I can also provide the original quicktime file from which this is based on
> request.
>
> y
>
> _______________________________________________
> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management:
> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list
> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
>
>

--0015175cd56008c15f04653f66d7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for this awesome video! I was unaware that the Caml compiler did not=
 optimize source code before generating native code. Now I am a little less=
 afraid to study the actual compiler!<br><br>Your point about a lack of=A0 =
GUI libraries is great - however it seems as though they are not as importa=
nt as they once were. The amazing javascript toolkits [1] that have sprung =
up over the last year (along with the Ocsigen and OBrower project [2]) have=
 filled most of that vaccum.<br>
<br>As long as there are libraries that provide an easy way to hook up with=
 a web client is there still a compelling reason to develop native GUI tool=
kits?<br><br>Regards<br>-Aditya Siram<br><br><br><br>[1] <a href=3D"http://=
www.sproutcore.com/">http://www.sproutcore.com/</a> , <a href=3D"http://qoo=
xdoo.org/">http://qooxdoo.org/</a> , <a href=3D"http://cappuccino.org/">htt=
p://cappuccino.org/</a><br>
[2] <a href=3D"http://ocsigen.org/">http://ocsigen.org/</a><br><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">2009/3/13 Yaron Minsky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:yminsky@gmail.com">yminsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); ma=
rgin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
For those who are interested, I just posted a video of a talk I gave at CMU=
 several weeks ago about Jane Street&#39;s use of OCaml.=A0 This is an upda=
ted version of the talk I gave at POPL last year.=A0 Various people have ex=
pressed an interest in showing the talk to their undergraduate classes, so =
I thought it worth mentioning on the list.<br>

<br>Here&#39;s the link:<br><br>=A0 <a href=3D"http://ocaml.janestreet.com/=
?q=3Dnode/61" target=3D"_blank">http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=3Dnode/61</a=
><br><br>I can also provide the original quicktime file from which this is =
based on request.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
y<br>
</font><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management:<br>
<a href=3D"http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list" target=
=3D"_blank">http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list</a><br=
>
Archives: <a href=3D"http://caml.inria.fr" target=3D"_blank">http://caml.in=
ria.fr</a><br>
Beginner&#39;s list: <a href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginne=
rs" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners</a><br>
Bug reports: <a href=3D"http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--0015175cd56008c15f04653f66d7--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <jon@ffconsultancy.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled 
	version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AF81BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:32:51 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApIDAHspvknUnwckZ2dsb2JhbACCHZMlDQkFBwcRBMBQg38G
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,374,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25682454"
Received: from relay.ptn-ipout02.plus.net ([212.159.7.36])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 16 Mar 2009 18:32:50 +0100
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgMGALMpvknUnw4U/2dsb2JhbACCHdQ2g38G
Received: from pih-relay08.plus.net ([212.159.14.20])
  by relay.ptn-ipout02.plus.net with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2009 17:32:50 +0000
Received: from [87.113.11.250] (helo=leper.local)
	 by pih-relay08.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1LjGgE-000654-3S
	for caml-list@yquem.inria.fr; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:32:50 +0000
From: Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com>
Organization: Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:38:35 +0000
User-Agent: KMail/1.9.9
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com> <594f78210903161001k685fc9ccnb4f566c342e2bfca@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <594f78210903161001k685fc9ccnb4f566c342e2bfca@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
  charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Message-Id: <200903161738.35576.jon@ffconsultancy.com>
X-Plusnet-Relay: 716542023c32872fa6c8a6ee084450e1
X-Spam: no; 0.00; compiler:01 compiler:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 high-level:01 low-level:01 ffi:01 ogl:01 2009:98 javascript:98 javascript:98 frog:98 wrote:01 compilers:01 compilers:01 

On Monday 16 March 2009 17:01:15 aditya siram wrote:
> Thanks for this awesome video! I was unaware that the Caml compiler did not
> optimize source code before generating native code. Now I am a little less
> afraid to study the actual compiler!

The OCaml compilers are remarkably comprehensible. I attribute that to the 
OCaml developers at INRIA discarding implementations of ideas that turned out 
to be rubbish rather than accumulating such cruft. So there is very little 
irrelevant baggage in there compared to many other compilers.

> Your point about a lack of  GUI libraries is great - however it seems as
> though they are not as important as they once were. The amazing javascript
> toolkits [1] that have sprung up over the last year (along with the Ocsigen
> and OBrower project [2]) have filled most of that vaccum.
>
> As long as there are libraries that provide an easy way to hook up with a
> web client is there still a compelling reason to develop native GUI
> toolkits?

Performance. If you want to do OpenGL-based visualization then you at least 
need a fast route from the high-level data you are visualizing through to a 
low-level representation (e.g. tesselations) down to the C FFI to the OGL 
driver. Javascript is, of course, not up to the task. OCaml is much better 
but there is still room for improvement.

-- 
Dr Jon Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/?e


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <yminsky@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.8 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8479BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:35:54 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiQCAL44vklKfVwbimdsb2JhbACCUZIyPwEBAQoJDAcPBbB6B4EAjXoBAwEDg3wGhQM
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,374,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="24406844"
Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.27])
  by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2009 19:35:53 +0100
Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so1795108qwe.15
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:35:53 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to
         :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
        bh=uUfBe3PtBkiut+ozvPwufMJnE0oie98Js/45vIbawZ4=;
        b=b75+kGt/p0ayhZBKlwvZqahK3rmAc847IaiadiXVXtWjOk6OBY5fdlWsiGXh/X8qFO
         zgxyppAMfYQ7Es98pGI3VLI7wJoI+7tzze/CoyTQxcv0Pz4SZr6+mYwtScRobkpRDQ6D
         M1CQoE3WOdn1WcvR49OXM/TeeLhKo4BlSonho=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
        b=kkhO7WN3OjwKBRbDeGTWuqIozC6qQNEEFQMMSDBm64FC8HxseBbUg4J9YB/OX+JunO
         B6mwWZvAsUEvPVlB8BcECCHWDXY95rv+Nzblspa4Qv98BF73RiCOMZJvrK6J0XmDWp/k
         ACauebAf7+rbkEzbB9gvH4ZXGLNjep+r+6Qp0=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.229.85.17 with SMTP id m17mr1974500qcl.43.1237228552604; Mon, 
	16 Mar 2009 11:35:52 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: yminsky@gmail.com
In-Reply-To: <beed19130903160730w7640ae24ib0a3194ed81944dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <beed19130903160730w7640ae24ib0a3194ed81944dd@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:35:51 -0400
Message-ID: <891bd3390903161135xba35405wa62edd7db1706336@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>
To: Jim Miller <gordon.j.miller@gmail.com>
Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364edf6e62a1c9046540b812
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 node:01 node:01 2009:98 blogs:98 blog:98 blog:98 2009:98 blogs:98 wrote:01 wrote:01 

--0016364edf6e62a1c9046540b812
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Jim Miller <gordon.j.miller@gmail.com>wrote:

> You discussed the issues that Jane Street has in "programming in the
> large."  We have a small OCaml investment here and we are probably
> going to significantly expand that.


I'm curious, what are you guys doing with caml?


> While I know that time is a huge
> factor, I'd be very interested in any blogs or writings you have on
> what specific techniques you used to help with these issues.  In
> particular, the build process that you use.  I've seen you mention in
> the past on this list that you've had issues with some the existing
> build tools.
>

Our blog is here:

   http://ocaml.janestreet.com

And I wrote a post about our build system here:

   http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=node/36

Interestingly, it is the most popular post on the blog.  Turns out, there
are more people who care about version control than people who care about
functional programming.  (It's not that bad, though.  The second most
popular post is on type-indexed values).

y

--0016364edf6e62a1c9046540b812
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Jim Miller <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gordon.j.miller@gmail.com">gordon.j.miller@gmail.com</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

You discussed the issues that Jane Street has in &quot;programming in the<b=
r>
large.&quot; =A0We have a small OCaml investment here and we are probably<b=
r>
going to significantly expand that. =A0</blockquote><div><br>I&#39;m curiou=
s, what are you guys doing with caml?<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0p=
t 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
While I know that time is a huge<br>
factor, I&#39;d be very interested in any blogs or writings you have on<br>
what specific techniques you used to help with these issues. =A0In<br>
particular, the build process that you use. =A0I&#39;ve seen you mention in=
<br>
the past on this list that you&#39;ve had issues with some the existing<br>
build tools.<br>
</blockquote></div><br>Our blog is here:<br><br>=A0=A0 <a href=3D"http://oc=
aml.janestreet.com">http://ocaml.janestreet.com</a><br><br>And I wrote a po=
st about our build system here: <br><br>=A0=A0 <a href=3D"http://ocaml.jane=
street.com/?q=3Dnode/36">http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=3Dnode/36</a><br>
<br>Interestingly, it is the most popular post on the blog.=A0 Turns out, t=
here are more people who care about version control than people who care ab=
out functional programming.=A0 (It&#39;s not that bad, though.=A0 The secon=
d most popular post is on type-indexed values).<br>
<br>y<br>

--0016364edf6e62a1c9046540b812--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <avaron@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.105])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D157CBBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:56:01 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlYBAPQ9vknYSfEMhWdsb2JhbACCUYooE4g2AQEBCgsKGASwa48Og38G
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,374,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208,217";a="36637188"
Received: from info-smtp-004.amnh.org ([216.73.241.12])
  by mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2009 19:55:40 +0100
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by info-smtp-004.amnh.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3CF1CD521;
	Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:55:38 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amnh.org
Received: from info-smtp-004.amnh.org ([127.0.0.1])
	by localhost (info-smtp-004.amnh.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id riqFt9CIJbIc; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:55:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from samson.internal.amnh.org (unknown [216.73.249.185])
	by info-smtp-004.amnh.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 599D91CD517;
	Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:55:37 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: Jim Miller <gordon.j.miller@gmail.com>, caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Message-Id: <B13C1437-4711-4DDB-ACEA-3104857ED9DB@gmail.com>
From: Andres Varon <avaron@gmail.com>
To: yminsky@gmail.com
In-Reply-To: <891bd3390903161135xba35405wa62edd7db1706336@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-22--922984140
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3)
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:55:37 -0400
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com> <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu> <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com> <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu> <beed19130903160730w7640ae24ib0a3194ed81944dd@mail.gmail.com> <891bd3390903161135xba35405wa62edd7db1706336@mail.gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3)
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 ocaml:01 ocaml:01 node:01 makefile:01 beginner's:01 bug:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 node:01 makefile:01 beginner's:01 bug:01 blog:98 


--Apple-Mail-22--922984140
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=US-ASCII;
	format=flowed;
	delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


On Mar 16, 2009, at 2:35 PM, Yaron Minsky wrote:
>
>
> Our blog is here:
>
>    http://ocaml.janestreet.com
>
> And I wrote a post about our build system here:
>
>    http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=node/36
>
> Interestingly, it is the most popular post on the blog.  Turns out,  
> there are more people who care about version control than people who  
> care about functional programming.  (It's not that bad, though.  The  
> second most popular post is on type-indexed values).

Just to add the bit of our own experience here:

We have a relatively small group of people here (at most 5 working on  
the same project, some in separate locations). We also moved to  
mercurial more than a year ago (we started with subversion), and have  
automated tests before and after each commit using buildbot (http://buildbot.net/trac 
). Each developer can submit his local changes for test before pushing  
to the main repository, to avoid breaking the central repository that  
we all pull from. The tests run in numerous processors and OS'es  
(including parallel machines using MPI, Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X).

This setup works fantastic for our group (and is not very different  
from that of Jane Street). The main weakness was the Makefile (no  
wonder). To solve it, few weeks ago I moved all the build scripts to  
ocamlbuild, and it is working like a charm now. Our lives are a little  
bit better (once again), thanks to the french fellows :-).

Andres

>
> y
> _______________________________________________
> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management:
> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list
> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs


--Apple-Mail-22--922984140
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Mar 16, 2009, =
at 2:35 PM, Yaron Minsky wrote:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt =
0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#000000"><br></font> </blockquote></div><br>Our blog is =
here:<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"http://ocaml.janestreet.com">http://ocaml.janestreet.com</a><br><b=
r>And I wrote a post about our build system here: <br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<a =
href=3D"http://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=3Dnode/36">http://ocaml.janestreet.=
com/?q=3Dnode/36</a><br> <br>Interestingly, it is the most popular post =
on the blog.&nbsp; Turns out, there are more people who care about =
version control than people who care about functional programming.&nbsp; =
(It's not that bad, though.&nbsp; The second most popular post is on =
type-indexed values).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Just to add =
the bit of our own experience here:</div><div><br></div><div>We have a =
relatively small group of people here (at most 5 working on the same =
project, some in separate locations). We also moved to mercurial more =
than a year ago (we started with subversion), and have automated tests =
before and after each commit using buildbot (<a =
href=3D"http://buildbot.net/trac)">http://buildbot.net/trac)</a>. Each =
developer can submit his local changes for test before pushing to the =
main repository, to avoid breaking the central repository that we all =
pull from. The tests run&nbsp;in numerous processors and =
OS'es&nbsp;(including parallel machines using MPI, Linux, Windows, and =
Mac OS X).&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>This setup works fantastic for =
our group (and is not very different from that of Jane Street). The main =
weakness was the Makefile (no wonder). To solve it, few weeks ago I =
moved all the build scripts to ocamlbuild, and it is working like a =
charm now. Our lives are a little bit better (once again), thanks to the =
french fellows :-).</div><div><br></div><div>Andres</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> <br>y<br> =
_______________________________________________<br>Caml-list mailing =
list. Subscription management:<br><a =
href=3D"http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list">http://y=
quem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list</a><br>Archives: =
http://caml.inria.fr<br>Beginner's list: =
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners<br>Bug reports: =
http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html=
>=

--Apple-Mail-22--922984140--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <nilekim@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.8 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E154BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 00:23:43 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnwBAKt8vknRVd2CmGdsb2JhbACCIy6SRj8BAQEBAQgJDAcRrzyBB0qNaAEDAQODfAY
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,375,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="24415847"
Received: from mail-qy0-f130.google.com ([209.85.221.130])
  by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2009 00:23:42 +0100
Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so4500351qyk.1
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:23:41 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type;
        bh=zBLtXOOtho026iALJTClOxSSfpTleZ4qSRYvja+ygCM=;
        b=D/sUCMaWmoh2s8Pb+tOGsuidF9VkNT5Si1I9ryKYGtgxz9jtPaxrY6LLDrxkOlQvm+
         UNhvzRRyrm073jO7f0eqvieGleogIctb1+46iupFCbw9bJMXy/KcLx0Uz4IxHsFbXNG3
         duZmB27vz7tvdViumOi1mltSQn0PLv8olaWLQ=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :content-type;
        b=agnd2uyCOv22/YSdfNp+VrD2S3aq4hjVH2TFbCMW8WLI+yj0mApfUVI4CkncuuUXkR
         vEOBEfPPemwQR7QK/Az7+U5a06R5TNk2Zb7PaXUyVzY62XfwFKnx6cdD36/asT5R2V0A
         RkTy8GSrOKIJmOWMmElBykfMUcfCS+ZC1CL/Q=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.224.28.129 with SMTP id m1mr6645905qac.273.1237245821851; Mon, 
	16 Mar 2009 16:23:41 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:23:41 -0400
Message-ID: <2a1a1a0c0903161623i1a951ab6h672fe32a6c0630ad@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Mike Lin <nilekim@gmail.com>
To: Caml <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cb21eb61952046544bd44
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 2009:98 2009:98 insured:98 insured:98 wrote:01 wrote:01 caml-list:01 caml:02 seems:03 

--0015175cb21eb61952046544bd44
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

2009/3/14 Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>

> On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Yoann Padioleau <padator@wanadoo.fr>wrote:
>
>>
>> Having said that, about your company, Jane Street,
>> aren't you part of the people that put the countries in such trouble ?
>> Do you create wealth ? It seems you are just a parasite ... that
>> exploits some loopholes in the system.
>>
>
> What Jane Street does is very far from the part of finance---and the ways
> of thinking---that caused these troubles.  You can't just lump all of
> finance together as "the guys who caused the trouble"; that would be like
> condemning all engineers for
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Fi1VcbpAI


It's OK, that bridge was insured by AIG :)

--0015175cb21eb61952046544bd44
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/3/14 Yaron Minsky <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yminsky@gmail.com">yminsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(20=
4, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Yoann Padioleau <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:padator@wanadoo.fr" target=3D"_blank">padat=
or@wanadoo.fr</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204)=
; margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

<div><div></div><br></div>
Having said that, about your company, Jane Street,<br>
aren&#39;t you part of the people that put the countries in such trouble ?<=
br>
Do you create wealth ? It seems you are just a parasite ... that<br>
exploits some loopholes in the system.<br></blockquote></div><br></div>What=
 Jane Street does is very far from the part of finance---and the
ways of thinking---that caused these troubles.=A0 You can&#39;t just lump a=
ll
of finance together as &quot;the guys who caused the trouble&quot;; that wo=
uld be
like condemning all engineers for<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DP0Fi1VcbpAI" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DP0Fi1VcbpAI</a></blockquote><div><br>I=
t&#39;s OK, that bridge was insured by AIG :)<br><br></div></div><br>

--0015175cb21eb61952046544bd44--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <david.baelde@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC835BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 03:37:39 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApYBAG6pvklA6ba7kGdsb2JhbACNAIgXPwEBAQEJCQwHEQOubYEHjl0BAwEDg3wG
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,375,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25699239"
Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.187])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2009 03:37:39 +0100
Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b11so1048642nfh.13
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to
         :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=GNA83zpSYL0CuDlbPASyHFmQa9bJrawZTtLH+jqceUA=;
        b=TP1Pm8RFQVHE2f7Zx/XXhOrVjaYxu4bs67uAlafmdo71CYN6Ouc8uJoxiPlna9zMme
         1dx8363vTSMCHMQ6wz2/TdggqmtOtLphv48QKTYxfx9zi3lS8bNgNSUZuj3ral9Piwrg
         gGkyZ+XwpgKSUk1Xd74zDkMrWuD1Zqoo1JsV0=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=Z7+t5Z028SEePy6SSdvlsXc9FeGzwLlO8lwNyocEzYO/qYGZ/lNMuuE9KNEx4kUo43
         R43yS1uZ+3R7meJ2bs2YDWiQBT5o0dYlA8MftObRiJzMl3GwNT+So3T9QaQwaBYZe9Aj
         JQVWdxlAnuXlsZnfD+YBZiJdKAOOaLm556BNY=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.210.71.13 with SMTP id t13mr4066134eba.56.1237257459185; Mon, 
	16 Mar 2009 19:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: david.baelde@ens-lyon.org
In-Reply-To: <f8560b80903160831w6256f9cbof91f6596d736b49e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <f8560b80903160831w6256f9cbof91f6596d736b49e@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 03:37:39 +0100
Message-ID: <53c655920903161937w4d6d5a28t94e95a3910048342@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: David Baelde <david.baelde@gmail.com>
To: Caml Mailing List <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml:01 markus:01 mottl:01 markus:01 mottl:01 arises:01 non-trivial:01 ocaml:01 cheers:01 2009:98 hard-earned:98 flawless:98 beliefs:98 wrote:01 caml-list:01 

Hi,

I'm not sure how much this is off-topic... Although this thread was
intended to be about an industrial use of OCaml, one cannot ignore
other aspects like advertising: it is rarely possible to separate
issues as clearly as we'd like. Anyway, I feel very much concerned
about this debate, and I'd like to add another non-Jane-St opinion.

Like many others, I've been feeling for a long time that many
financial products and practices don't make sense. I recognize that we
live in a complex world, and perhaps I should just learn more about
economics. However, the recent crisis showed that this feeling is not
entirely unfounded, even if it does not show that finance is harmful
as a whole.

I agree with Yoann's old-fashioned feeling: if you don't bring
anything to society, why should you make that much money? The point
against super-fast trading is not so much that speed is immoral in
itself, but that such fast transactions usually seem to fall in the
category of no-value-added.

A simple answer to this criticism is that the notion of usefulness to
the society is very controversial. Let me comment on the answer that
was given instead.

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Markus Mottl <markus.mottl@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thus, besides providing wonderful jobs for OCaml-hackers, our company
> makes it cheaper for people to invest their hard-earned money by
> providing extra liquidity on financial markets.

All you're saying is that you believe in free trade. If my mobile
phone company is ripping me, they can justify it because other
companies might rip their customers even more? Notoriously, this
argument does not always work: in France, all mobile phone companies
practice similar insane prices and no "fair" one arises.

I'd like to understand finance, maybe I'll read some serious stuff
about it some day. But I feel that it's really too bad that such an
important matter is inaccessible to most citizens. More importantly,
one should not fool people (or oneself) with sloppy metaphors and
apparently flawless reasoning when it actually boils down to
non-trivial beliefs about the world economy.

In my opinion, a major sickness of our world is that it is ruled by
people who claim to understand it when they don't. Politicians always
have solutions, never doubts. Obviously, it's just a way to justify
why they're ruling those who don't understand. We should keep our eyes
open and don't let it happen unnoticed, nor reproduce it ourselves.

Despite my doubts, I enjoyed Yaron's talk and appreciate the Jane St
involvement in OCaml. I just wish it were that simple.

Cheers,
-- 
David


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <deliverable@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: ***
X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HIDDEN_CHARGES,RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled 
	version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BADD5BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:06:29 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlQBAEawvknRVYC7mGdsb2JhbACVFz8BAQEBAQgJDAcRrlSBB45fAQMBA4I4gUQGgzc
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,375,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="24419885"
Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.187])
  by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2009 04:06:29 +0100
Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id f40so1735107fka.11
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:cc:message-id:from:to
         :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version
         :subject:date:references:x-mailer;
        bh=gGiopiDJLD9ve27vE5IuhZrNvV0IZ27qzzZ8/OOt19s=;
        b=LALJgGTxwGQEODGY+3iO2GqY7YflS5UxhEdtzJ+MjLghuMB7CLudVL1DxmDZk0DzzW
         H0Xz1g9J7/c+L2jFLFVHuePsPXhzTcLW8jQX6GpWVVU4e90EbFt3ppdc/nn4MLH7ZsZF
         BLoFt00XgwmItoL37Or0yADee+5tgfzSvlkDA=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references
         :x-mailer;
        b=vY/NEK1LYOG7+yWWSAHL6BjE72sFdQWk1hk+a3t1oglDg7HaVMXZ0RL8F7wEQIGqxG
         205Vy9iiNeXCW6rmtMApbN60HrI5KF45lbAd/CufzhNZALbnKSbbfm4OXpjT/d3IUWmf
         LdUAUEfbZrFrm5YNZNNKLWOG2fiJUE9Z4jLC0=
Received: by 10.103.117.9 with SMTP id u9mr2534632mum.55.1237259188723;
        Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ([64.30.3.122])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 12sm12109013muq.35.2009.03.16.20.06.26
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:06:27 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: Caml Mailing List <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>
Message-Id: <038F9B0A-EE44-47DA-AB4C-055EABB287CB@gmail.com>
From: Alexy Khrabrov <deliverable@gmail.com>
To: david.baelde@ens-lyon.org
In-Reply-To: <53c655920903161937w4d6d5a28t94e95a3910048342@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3)
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:06:24 -0400
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com> <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu> <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com> <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu> <f8560b80903160831w6256f9cbof91f6596d736b49e@mail.gmail.com> <53c655920903161937w4d6d5a28t94e95a3910048342@mail.gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3)
X-Spam: no; 0.01; markus:01 mottl:01 markus:01 mottl:01 arises:01 non-trivial:01 ocaml:01 cheers:01 gimmicks:98 scam:98 securities:98 mortgages:98 unqualified:98 bonds:98 rated:98 

Ah, what the heck, let's put this into a good "Old Europe" vs "New  
World"-style, capitalism vs. socialism perspective!

On Mar 16, 2009, at 10:37 PM, David Baelde wrote:

> Like many others, I've been feeling for a long time that many
> financial products and practices don't make sense. I recognize that we
> live in a complex world, and perhaps I should just learn more about
> economics. However, the recent crisis showed that this feeling is not
> entirely unfounded, even if it does not show that finance is harmful
> as a whole.

Jane St is a market maker.  They have to enable liquidity in the  
markets.  They offer to buy or sell shares and they fulfill their  
promise -- exactly and fast.  The terms of their offers are crystal- 
clear to all participants and are enforced by the electronic market.   
The terms are known in advance, no hidden charges, no gimmicks.  Take  
it or leave it.  Very different from the "financial crisis."  Say a  
sewage tank explodes in Lyon and covers passers-by with its contents.   
Does it mean all sewage business is a scam?

The failed securities were derivatives, stemming from the rotten  
mortgages pushed onto unqualified American buyers, mixed with AAA  
bonds, rated highly by crooked agencies, and sold to the world  
investors.  Many European investors wanted to basically exploit hard- 
working American home owners, working with higher American  
productivity to uphold their higher American way of life.  The  
productivity of the US worker is higher than that of his European  
counterpart because EU is loaded with socialist obstacles to  
productivity, and EU capitalist investors know that and prefer to get  
a higher US rate of return.  This desire to live off of hard-working  
American mortgage payers was deftly exploited by smart US crooks, so  
the world and EU investors essentially got what they deserved.   
There's no easy money.

This has noting to do with the clearly stated and honestly settled  
trades where the nature of stocks was known forever and never changed  
by any trading company.

> I agree with Yoann's old-fashioned feeling: if you don't bring
> anything to society, why should you make that much money? The point
> against super-fast trading is not so much that speed is immoral in
> itself, but that such fast transactions usually seem to fall in the
> category of no-value-added.

Why should stupid pseudo-art be sold at Sothebie's for millions?  Why  
do folks spend $15,000 for a brunch in a pseudo-French New York bistro:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/nyregion/thecity/15part.html

Who decides what's value-added for society?  This is socialism and  
we'd have none of it in the US unless required by law.  No amount of  
bureaucrats in Brussels will ever tell us what to do.

> A simple answer to this criticism is that the notion of usefulness to
> the society is very controversial. Let me comment on the answer that
> was given instead.
>
> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Markus Mottl  
> <markus.mottl@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thus, besides providing wonderful jobs for OCaml-hackers, our company
>> makes it cheaper for people to invest their hard-earned money by
>> providing extra liquidity on financial markets.
>
> All you're saying is that you believe in free trade. If my mobile
> phone company is ripping me, they can justify it because other
> companies might rip their customers even more? Notoriously, this
> argument does not always work: in France, all mobile phone companies
> practice similar insane prices and no "fair" one arises.

Because socialism is bad, and US and Asian companies are more agile  
and their services are better priced than the EU ones.

> I'd like to understand finance, maybe I'll read some serious stuff
> about it some day. But I feel that it's really too bad that such an
> important matter is inaccessible to most citizens. More importantly,
> one should not fool people (or oneself) with sloppy metaphors and
> apparently flawless reasoning when it actually boils down to
> non-trivial beliefs about the world economy.

Trading is a highly specialized endeavor.  So is cutting diamonds and  
launching rockets.  Settling trades is as important as water and waste  
management.  Municipal waste requires a degree in civil engineering to  
do right, and trading is no different.  It's the blood of the economy.

> In my opinion, a major sickness of our world is that it is ruled by
> people who claim to understand it when they don't. Politicians always
> have solutions, never doubts. Obviously, it's just a way to justify
> why they're ruling those who don't understand. We should keep our eyes
> open and don't let it happen unnoticed, nor reproduce it ourselves.

The best way for smart people in such a situation is to unite and  
act.  Jane St is not a government or political organization.  It is a  
set of folks who believe they know how the world works and prove it  
daily.  That's the most honorable way for people to act in our times.   
They use their education, technical savvy, creativity and software  
skills to build an agile system which thrives.  This is one of the  
most beautiful things possible under the constraints you lament.  As  
we say here, stop whining, roll up your sleeves, raise some seed  
capital, and go change the world!

> Despite my doubts, I enjoyed Yaron's talk and appreciate the Jane St
> involvement in OCaml.

Here we finally agree.

> I just wish it were that simple.

It's simpler than you think!  "Just do it."

Cheers,
Alexy


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <yminsky@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: ***
X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C32BBBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:22:23 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao4CAPqzvklKfVwYi2dsb2JhbACCHjOSRj8BAQEKCwoHDwWuSgeBAI5kAQMBA4N8BoUD
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,375,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25700464"
Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.24])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2009 04:22:22 +0100
Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so1885855qwe.15
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to
         :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type;
        bh=gjTGkThzwz6z6EAMzMbe2M+HjxcCDNF+Pa6g7RjsA1Y=;
        b=r8xsj9sj4q2/YTyBIkRAihxJSY7zDo/KBRcbfhidKk3a9WH0RsOrfmWbEL2ObSQMAA
         uBkivNAxmyJVNHbQrnJFUi8OYM4/9dSxT7QHQquw88X0PTXQIqNCG2GVKYu6s6ShT71r
         0Iud7weuSfh59hS4eted4BtBF2fqume+hPlFA=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:content-type;
        b=s4WVpFydr4oGVc/29fvrJj2JLTSR4xiFscJ5C6JjhocWxpWqNgQOv2wd/ZsqXyXKHZ
         aeTP3z0RN+gbKrVq3Gbru8iM4bh6U14HTLHjs0YwVsdpzAKQ+BDzO/Rdu/pMNDzjp21K
         6IpeFyeTQ9+p2mUUVNUAWtjLGfRLWCblT63+0=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.229.83.146 with SMTP id f18mr2217004qcl.41.1237260141626; Mon, 
	16 Mar 2009 20:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: yminsky@gmail.com
In-Reply-To: <038F9B0A-EE44-47DA-AB4C-055EABB287CB@gmail.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <f8560b80903160831w6256f9cbof91f6596d736b49e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <53c655920903161937w4d6d5a28t94e95a3910048342@mail.gmail.com>
	 <038F9B0A-EE44-47DA-AB4C-055EABB287CB@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:22:21 -0400
Message-ID: <891bd3390903162022t19507992te76de13111751535@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>
To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364274db3c855f046548139e
X-Spam: no; 0.00; yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 caml-list:01 caml:02 off-topic:02 off-topic:02 languages:03 languages:03 programming:03 programming:03 perhaps:05 perhaps:05 thread:06 thread:06 

--0016364274db3c855f046548139e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I would humbly propose that this thread has now gotten deeply off-topic, and
perhaps discussion on the list should turn back to programming languages,
rather than to deep philosophical questions about the nature of the
financial markets.

y

--0016364274db3c855f046548139e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I would humbly propose that this thread has now gotten deeply off-topic, and perhaps discussion on the list should turn back to programming languages, rather than to deep philosophical questions about the nature of the financial markets.<br>
<br>y<br>

--0016364274db3c855f046548139e--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <feucht@uni-koblenz.de>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled 
	version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.105])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23CCFBBC6
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:27:11 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsBAKLtvkmNGkAPkWdsb2JhbACVWQEBAQEJCwoHEQW+U4N+BmE
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,376,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="36655927"
Received: from deliver.uni-koblenz.de ([141.26.64.15])
  by mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2009 08:27:10 +0100
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by deliver.uni-koblenz.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F5C789A6D9
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:27:10 +0100 (CET)
Received: from deliver.uni-koblenz.de ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (deliver.uni-koblenz.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id 29650-03 for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>;
 Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:27:08 +0100 (CET)
X-CHKRCPT: Envelopesender vrfy feucht@uni-koblenz.de
Received: from [192.168.1.33] (dslb-092-073-110-104.pools.arcor-ip.net [92.73.110.104])
	(using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by deliver.uni-koblenz.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80279789A623
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:27:08 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Philip <feucht@uni-koblenz.de>
To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
In-Reply-To: <594f78210903161001k685fc9ccnb4f566c342e2bfca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <594f78210903161001k685fc9ccnb4f566c342e2bfca@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:27:08 +0100
Message-Id: <1237274828.5817.4.camel@io>
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Evolution 2.25.92 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at uni-koblenz.de
X-Spam: no; 0.00; compiler:01 compiler:01 ocaml:01 2009:98 javascript:98 wrote:01 caml-list:01 caml:02 caml:02 native:03 native:03 seems:03 gui:03 gui:03 long:06 

On Mon, 2009-03-16 at 12:01 -0500, aditya siram wrote:
> Thanks for this awesome video! I was unaware that the Caml compiler
> did not optimize source code before generating native code. Now I am a
> little less afraid to study the actual compiler!
> 
> Your point about a lack of  GUI libraries is great - however it seems
> as though they are not as important as they once were. The amazing
> javascript toolkits [1] that have sprung up over the last year (along
> with the Ocsigen and OBrower project [2]) have filled most of that
> vaccum.
> 
> As long as there are libraries that provide an easy way to hook up
> with a web client is there still a compelling reason to develop native
> GUI toolkits?
> 
> Regards
> -Aditya Siram
> 
> 

It is very easy to interface ocaml with an gui-toolkit like qt, living
in its own process. The communication is done via localhost/ http.

-Philip


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <ober.14@osu.edu>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,SPF_NEUTRAL 
	autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DE9BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 12:34:56 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuwBAP8nv0lDWxLCe2dsb2JhbACBTpQNAQEWIgSvPIZHiE6DfgY
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,378,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25723555"
Received: from ip67-91-18-194.z18-91-67.customer.algx.net (HELO server1.bertec.net) ([67.91.18.194])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2009 12:34:56 +0100
Received: from [IPv6:::1] (server2.bertec.net [192.168.2.6])
	by server1.bertec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D0310575C
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 07:34:54 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <E16D2FC5-0C1B-4253-9D1A-D59ED6FAC199@osu.edu>
From: Kuba Ober <ober.14@osu.edu>
To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
In-Reply-To: <53c655920903161937w4d6d5a28t94e95a3910048342@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3)
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 07:34:53 -0400
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com> <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu> <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com> <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu> <f8560b80903160831w6256f9cbof91f6596d736b49e@mail.gmail.com> <53c655920903161937w4d6d5a28t94e95a3910048342@mail.gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3)
X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml:01 undergrad:01 cheers:01 caml-list:01 caml:02 argument:02 off-topic:02 rarely:02 complex:05 perhaps:05 anyway:05 i'd:06 long:06 thread:06 osu:07 

> I'm not sure how much this is off-topic... Although this thread was
> intended to be about an industrial use of OCaml, one cannot ignore
> other aspects like advertising: it is rarely possible to separate
> issues as clearly as we'd like. Anyway, I feel very much concerned
> about this debate, and I'd like to add another non-Jane-St opinion.
>
> Like many others, I've been feeling for a long time that many
> financial products and practices don't make sense. I recognize that we
> live in a complex world, and perhaps I should just learn more about
> economics. However, the recent crisis showed that this feeling is not
> entirely unfounded, even if it does not show that finance is harmful
> as a whole.

As Feynman once said: if you cannot explain it clearly to an undergrad,
you likely don't really understand it yourself.

Now the deal is that I wish the pro-trading argument was presented by  
someone
who truly understands (in the Feynman sense).

I don't know if there's any single person out there who has as much  
understanding
of trading as Feynman had of physics. There's no "Feynman Lectures on  
Trading" :(

Cheers, Kuba


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <markus.mottl@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72CFBBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 14:57:01 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah8CAM9Iv0nRVdmkimdsb2JhbACCfpIaPwEBAQoJDAcPBa41gQaPVQEDAQODeQY
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,378,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25733267"
Received: from mail-gx0-f164.google.com ([209.85.217.164])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2009 14:57:01 +0100
Received: by gxk8 with SMTP id 8so84327gxk.3
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 06:57:00 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=JpBeILNET1WAK47JkkM+oBUK09LYA7+vb7VaeF6iIRU=;
        b=iDJKnXIh8z1h4i7qq5FrC8iJO8IuEWm5cRT6QsPTewL06luCUq2qrWXahyO3NUX3v7
         XD+l7YdaBODTyIs8CNXn0iOQaXfqs5s6kSOy0Dc9kob+C14pGL2CJVJSZ8JbF09/yFT1
         6fahpazEB+yPkfrKTtrQX57X8lwMBq/e7ItD8=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=SDTK92iO4M0ol0xv5da13oG7osGL/D3JW0JIJBn6DbSj8hqC4ek9U+QKHsg6va47Nj
         9fTL1bgFiJf45bdSLr4rT/Z0WncY8i6UlDDhH4ETyLfSPOaoI/hzFA1nH6zzzSSk1Vvi
         gc093dW+Sg39kf6abOYA0VDqn+z1A0+xV906Y=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.90.52.1 with SMTP id z1mr32017agz.26.1237298214123; Tue, 17 
	Mar 2009 06:56:54 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <891bd3390903162022t19507992te76de13111751535@mail.gmail.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <f8560b80903160831w6256f9cbof91f6596d736b49e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <53c655920903161937w4d6d5a28t94e95a3910048342@mail.gmail.com>
	 <038F9B0A-EE44-47DA-AB4C-055EABB287CB@gmail.com>
	 <891bd3390903162022t19507992te76de13111751535@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:56:54 -0400
Message-ID: <f8560b80903170656o64a9f16aia58f376b50887689@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Markus Mottl <markus.mottl@gmail.com>
To: yminsky@gmail.com
Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam: no; 0.00; markus:01 mottl:01 markus:01 mottl:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 ocaml:01 2009:98 caml-list:01 caml:02 off-topic:02 seems:03 latter:03 languages:03 

2009/3/16 Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>:
> I would humbly propose that this thread has now gotten deeply off-topic, and
> perhaps discussion on the list should turn back to programming languages,
> rather than to deep philosophical questions about the nature of the
> financial markets.

I'd also rather keep this thread off the list now and will only reply
off the list in the future if it seems reasonable.  This thread has
become way too political for my taste.

As someone else here has already suggested, I encourage everyone that
wishes to learn more about different models of economy to pick up any
reputable, introductory textbook on microeconomics.  It will teach you
that markets, by and large, work well, that they can sometimes fail,
can also fail systematically in certain areas, and that it is
extremely hard to find good solutions for the latter that do not cause
more problems than they solve.  Ideological quick fixes do not exist,
just as the optimal type sytem doesn't so no more flames please...

Regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Mottl        http://www.ocaml.info        markus.mottl@gmail.com


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <nilekim@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.8 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1BC9BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:27:00 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: At8BAKxdv0lKfVwaimdsb2JhbACCUZJHPwEBAQoJDAcPBa44gQaPawEDAQODeQY
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,379,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="24456257"
Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.26])
  by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2009 16:27:00 +0100
Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 9so49522qwb.15
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type;
        bh=i469X6yuoI3W5nGkN7Zwa3y84dIkynlZj/J+2AAzDhY=;
        b=kby4bFt4xmAscR2YX3IeX/NxXgEOoTfSZqUyiY+SL+mpP7qUWH4INTgaSfQYjRksKc
         qY3LSooOuuxw5hvhYYU1ppL4H1SV1vlpLd8Wpfq9ziaAIQuWS7V0vCMsGFop3osingcb
         8JX8FoIfC5HQLfzQ7Z1G1kxBH40XR/mxZbDY8=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :content-type;
        b=VpbNX+8dat9mZI8KPoo1YqSqllJF8Xr+UQ92uD4Z6i5c4yh5LbNXMuxidPFfwjVyI7
         vPRIImmV9CxRmUeTpwPoie3A/MMlnsrL5mNzDhCv3j8PXIDpgoIaW8DVMM/TuJRH/qnS
         vT/c7XTgzuPm56VXrrXFLh1+XT6HwBEdR+2us=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.224.60.75 with SMTP id o11mr302289qah.7.1237303619014; Tue, 17 
	Mar 2009 08:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <f8560b80903170656o64a9f16aia58f376b50887689@mail.gmail.com>
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>
	 <f8560b80903160831w6256f9cbof91f6596d736b49e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <53c655920903161937w4d6d5a28t94e95a3910048342@mail.gmail.com>
	 <038F9B0A-EE44-47DA-AB4C-055EABB287CB@gmail.com>
	 <891bd3390903162022t19507992te76de13111751535@mail.gmail.com>
	 <f8560b80903170656o64a9f16aia58f376b50887689@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 11:26:58 -0400
Message-ID: <2a1a1a0c0903170826k4fd31f49p96e8c7e1f6b6bbc8@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Mike Lin <nilekim@gmail.com>
To: Caml <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175ce132b0d83c0465523247
X-Spam: no; 0.00; markus:01 mottl:01 markus:01 mottl:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 2009:98 2009:98 wrote:01 wrote:01 caml-list:01 

--0015175ce132b0d83c0465523247
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Markus Mottl <markus.mottl@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2009/3/16 Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>:
> > I would humbly propose that this thread has now gotten deeply off-topic,
> and
> > perhaps discussion on the list should turn back to programming languages,
> > rather than to deep philosophical questions about the nature of the
> > financial markets.
>
> I'd also rather keep this thread off the list now and will only reply
> off the list in the future if it seems reasonable.  This thread has
> become way too political for my taste.


That's disappointing since you were quite willing to take the bait in the
first place :) But seriously, I'd suggest that your company could augment
its excellent technical outreach efforts to the
academic/engineering/free-software crowd with some education about why you
are proud of your business. It's good for recruitment! Especially
considering, however unjustified it may or may not be, how much embitterment
there is towards your field right now.

Mike

--0015175ce132b0d83c0465523247
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:56=
 AM, Markus Mottl <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markus.mottl@gmai=
l.com">markus.mottl@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0=
pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
2009/3/16 Yaron Minsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yminsky@gmail.com">yminsky@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; I would humbly propose that this thr=
ead has now gotten deeply off-topic, and<br>
&gt; perhaps discussion on the list should turn back to programming languag=
es,<br>
&gt; rather than to deep philosophical questions about the nature of the<br=
>
&gt; financial markets.<br>
<br>
</div></div>I&#39;d also rather keep this thread off the list now and will =
only reply<br>
off the list in the future if it seems reasonable. =A0This thread has<br>
become way too political for my taste.</blockquote><div><br>That&#39;s disa=
ppointing since you were quite willing to take the bait in
the first place :) But seriously, I&#39;d suggest that your company could a=
ugment its excellent technical outreach efforts to the academic/engineering=
/free-software crowd with some education about why you are proud of your bu=
siness. It&#39;s good for recruitment! Especially considering, however unju=
stified it may or may not be, how much embitterment there is towards your f=
ield right now.<br>
<br>Mike<br></div></div><br>

--0015175ce132b0d83c0465523247--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <lawrenceausten@yahoo.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,
	DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1C1BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:59 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsABAOB0v0liiCwklGdsb2JhbACCIDGTCAEBAQEJCwgJEQOuEJBzBQIBg3kG
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,379,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208,217";a="24462250"
Received: from n71.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([98.136.44.36])
  by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with SMTP; 17 Mar 2009 18:05:58 +0100
Received: from [216.252.122.216] by n71.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2009 17:05:56 -0000
Received: from [68.142.237.90] by t1.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2009 17:05:56 -0000
Received: from [69.147.75.180] by t6.bullet.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2009 17:05:56 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp101.mail.re1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2009 17:05:56 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 583027.92756.bm@omp101.mail.re1.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 3779 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2009 17:05:56 -0000
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
  s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
  h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type;
  b=OdIrjD/SjeFV8VNjUxQeTczwg30AoMqJ4vP+Mqb4MeUJ+HBnC+S3tmzC1P+wiSEJMv0VnA8xu+BnYNxt5k8UfBATVc+aUBI6n5kyYu+A68T4OYWq8ZUUtjsszdT93I26DBERDdrr/qHnnJtzVTrmb9sHWlIjI451idntvLtTx8A=  ;
Received: from unknown (HELO ?0.0.0.0?) (LawrenceAusten@74.208.144.25 with plain)
  by smtp116.plus.mail.re1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 2009 17:05:56 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: v_AVGrIVM1njCxvaUxNBif_mQktHhvOLPDQ37k6bemRjluvkh6dYpVDNg0h4_xbVRu4KA71v.WOI5RLvT7BPvZoYUM8btOY_aBPYN2naxrxJwtoDhdG2.JqZ8qm5Lo7m0br4fNo28XLFFV.YN_EfwgdyZ_PVMtPr2HRTpUm8KaJ9Y9gSqD6oc_wKDyWLMDGVFWMcj5UotA8ANmbh15CrO5I-
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
Message-ID: <49BFD872.50405@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 10:05:54 -0700
From: Lawrence Austen <LawrenceAusten@yahoo.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090213)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Markus Mottl <markus.mottl@gmail.com>
Cc: yminsky@gmail.com, caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>	<87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>	<891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>	<87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>	<f8560b80903160831w6256f9cbof91f6596d736b49e@mail.gmail.com>	<53c655920903161937w4d6d5a28t94e95a3910048342@mail.gmail.com>	<038F9B0A-EE44-47DA-AB4C-055EABB287CB@gmail.com>	<891bd3390903162022t19507992te76de13111751535@mail.gmail.com> <f8560b80903170656o64a9f16aia58f376b50887689@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <f8560b80903170656o64a9f16aia58f376b50887689@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------000208090400020101040703"
X-Spam: no; 0.00; markus:01 real-world:01 wikipedia:01 wiki:01 cheers:01 lacaml:01 markus:01 mottl:01 yaron:01 minsky:01 yminsky:01 real-world:01 wikipedia:01 wiki:01 cheers:01 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------000208090400020101040703
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Markus,

I agree that, empirically, market-based mechanisms tend to be the 
socially optimal solution to most real-world resource allocation 
problems.  However, this isn't really what is demonstrated in most 
introductory microeconomics textbooks, which focus on the analysis of 
systems in equilibrium. 

As is well known -- 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_Second_Best -- once you're 
outside of equilibrium there is no particular reason why market-based 
mechanisms should result in social welfare improvements.  Producing a 
product that creates pollution (which is a form of market failure) is 
the classic example, making the manufacturing process more competitive 
might result in a net social loss if increased production results in 
increased pollution, but the problem is far broader than that.

I think what Jane St is doing is great and I've made my career in 
finance, but arguing that you're doing it to save the world doesn't seem 
like good chess.  At least I hope you don't actually believe that or 
you'll have to change the name to St Jane St :-)

Cheers,
Lawrence

PS Thanks for LACAML, very social welfare improving!


Markus Mottl wrote:
> 2009/3/16 Yaron Minsky <yminsky@gmail.com>:
>   
>> I would humbly propose that this thread has now gotten deeply off-topic, and
>> perhaps discussion on the list should turn back to programming languages,
>> rather than to deep philosophical questions about the nature of the
>> financial markets.
>>     
>
> I'd also rather keep this thread off the list now and will only reply
> off the list in the future if it seems reasonable.  This thread has
> become way too political for my taste.
>
> As someone else here has already suggested, I encourage everyone that
> wishes to learn more about different models of economy to pick up any
> reputable, introductory textbook on microeconomics.  It will teach you
> that markets, by and large, work well, that they can sometimes fail,
> can also fail systematically in certain areas, and that it is
> extremely hard to find good solutions for the latter that do not cause
> more problems than they solve.  Ideological quick fixes do not exist,
> just as the optimal type sytem doesn't so no more flames please...
>
> Regards,
> Markus
>
>   

--------------000208090400020101040703
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hi Markus,<br>
<br>
I agree that, empirically, market-based mechanisms tend to be the
socially optimal solution to most real-world resource allocation
problems.&nbsp; However, this isn't really what is demonstrated in most
introductory microeconomics textbooks, which focus on the analysis of
systems in equilibrium.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
As is well known --
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_Second_Best">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_Second_Best</a> -- once you're
outside of equilibrium there is no particular reason why market-based
mechanisms should result in social welfare improvements.&nbsp; Producing a
product that creates pollution (which is a form of market failure) is
the classic example, making the manufacturing process more competitive
might result in a net social loss if increased production results in
increased pollution, but the problem is far broader than that.<br>
<br>
I think what Jane St is doing is great and I've made my career in
finance, but arguing that you're doing it to save the world doesn't
seem like good chess.&nbsp; At least I hope you don't actually believe that
or you'll have to change the name to St Jane St :-)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Lawrence<br>
<br>
PS Thanks for LACAML, very social welfare improving!<br>
<br>
<br>
Markus Mottl wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:f8560b80903170656o64a9f16aia58f376b50887689@mail.gmail.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">2009/3/16 Yaron Minsky <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yminsky@gmail.com">&lt;yminsky@gmail.com&gt;</a>:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">I would humbly propose that this thread has now gotten deeply off-topic, and
perhaps discussion on the list should turn back to programming languages,
rather than to deep philosophical questions about the nature of the
financial markets.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
I'd also rather keep this thread off the list now and will only reply
off the list in the future if it seems reasonable.  This thread has
become way too political for my taste.

As someone else here has already suggested, I encourage everyone that
wishes to learn more about different models of economy to pick up any
reputable, introductory textbook on microeconomics.  It will teach you
that markets, by and large, work well, that they can sometimes fail,
can also fail systematically in certain areas, and that it is
extremely hard to find good solutions for the latter that do not cause
more problems than they solve.  Ideological quick fixes do not exist,
just as the optimal type sytem doesn't so no more flames please...

Regards,
Markus

  </pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

--------------000208090400020101040703--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <Xavier.Leroy@inria.fr>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=disabled 
	version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B558BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:14:41 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArkBAIB3v0nUGyoDkWdsb2JhbACVWQEBAQEJCwoHEQO+c4IxAwGBRwY
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,379,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="24462723"
Received: from smtp3-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.3])
  by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2009 18:14:38 +0100
Received: from smtp3-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by smtp3-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608A7818184;
	Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:14:31 +0100 (CET)
Received: from [192.168.1.3] (che78-2-82-237-71-191.fbx.proxad.net [82.237.71.191])
	by smtp3-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3898181AA;
	Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:14:29 +0100 (CET)
Message-ID: <49BFDA74.3010902@inria.fr>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:14:28 +0100
From: Xavier Leroy <Xavier.Leroy@inria.fr>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070620)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mike Lin <nilekim@gmail.com>
Cc: Caml <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
References: <891bd3390903131252t7feb059aq94f56b0a4d2efbf3@mail.gmail.com>	<87hc1wyl9q.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>	<891bd3390903141025w3d0580dbgf97ab4f40386903d@mail.gmail.com>	<87d4chy29p.fsf@aryx.cs.uiuc.edu>	<f8560b80903160831w6256f9cbof91f6596d736b49e@mail.gmail.com>	<53c655920903161937w4d6d5a28t94e95a3910048342@mail.gmail.com>	<038F9B0A-EE44-47DA-AB4C-055EABB287CB@gmail.com>	<891bd3390903162022t19507992te76de13111751535@mail.gmail.com>	<f8560b80903170656o64a9f16aia58f376b50887689@mail.gmail.com> <2a1a1a0c0903170826k4fd31f49p96e8c7e1f6b6bbc8@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <2a1a1a0c0903170826k4fd31f49p96e8c7e1f6b6bbc8@mail.gmail.com>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam: no; 0.00; counseling:98 wrote:01 caml-list:01 caml:02 caml:02 let:03 i'd:06 xavier:06 xavier:06 bank:93 investment:93 inria:06 thread:06 indeed:07 programmer:07 

(I know I should let this thread die, but I can't resist!)

Mike Lin wrote:
> But seriously, I'd suggest that your company could augment its
> excellent technical outreach efforts to the
> academic/engineering/free-software crowd with some education about
> why you are proud of your business.

Wise words indeed.  <joke> May I also suggest some investment
counseling targeted to the working Caml programmer?  After all, it's
in Jane Street's best interest to make sure that key Caml developers
don't blow their little savings on mutual funds once presented to them
as "very safe, you can't lose with this one"... </joke>

- Xavier "but I didn't have any Madoff, or so my bank tells me" Leroy


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <xahlee@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: ****
X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.3 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,HTML_10_20,
	HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME,SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F9BBBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:35:55 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aj0BAOzCv0nRVcbdmGdsb2JhbACCUZFWLkI/AQEBAQEICQwHEawvkSaDfAZh
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,381,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="22721866"
Received: from rv-out-0304.google.com ([209.85.198.221])
  by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2009 23:35:54 +0100
Received: by rv-out-0304.google.com with SMTP id g35so1557191rvb.3
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:35:53 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <f8560b80903170656o64a9f16aia58f376b50887689@mail.gmail.com>
Received: by 10.114.123.1 with SMTP id v1mr83675wac.1.1237329353839; Tue, 17 
	Mar 2009 15:35:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <001636458a869b1866046558304d@google.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:35:53 +0000
Subject: Re: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: xahlee@gmail.com
To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636458a869b1852046558304a
X-Spam: no; 0.00; markus:01 mottl:01 markus:01 mottl:01 2009:98 obidos:98 stocks:98 2009:98 obidos:98 stocks:98 wrote:01 wrote:01 caml-list:01 caml:02 latter:03 
X-Attachments: cset="UTF-8" cset="UTF-8" 

--001636458a869b1852046558304a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--001636458a869b1852046558304a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mar 17, 2009 6:56am, Markus Mottl &lt;markus.mottl@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<=
br />&gt; As someone else here has already suggested, I encourage everyone =
that<br />&gt; wishes to learn more about different models of economy to pi=
ck up any<br />&gt; reputable, introductory textbook on microeconomics.  It=
 will teach you<br />&gt; that markets, by and large, work well, that they =
can sometimes fail,<br />&gt; can also fail systematically in certain areas=
, and that it is<br />&gt; extremely hard to find good solutions for the la=
tter that do not cause<br />&gt; more problems than they solve.  Ideologica=
l quick fixes do not exist,<br />&gt; just as the optimal type sytem doesn&=
#39;t so no more flames please...<br /><br />well said.<br /><br />For thos=
e of you ignorant of the basics, i recommend:<br /><br />Basic Economics: A=
 Citizen&#39;s Guide to the Economy<br />by Thomas Sowell.<br />http://www.=
amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465002609/<br /><br />I read the first edition=
 in the dot come age circa 2000, alone with other books that helped me unde=
rstand stocks and related financial things. I&#39;ve read Thomas&#39;s book=
 2 more times in the early 2000s.<br /><br />  Xah<br />=E2=88=91 http://xa=
hlee.org/<br /><br />=E2=98=84
--001636458a869b1852046558304a--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <philippe.veber@googlemail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_NEUTRAL 
	autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33EC5BBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:38:43 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ar8CAJtswEnRVdq0kGdsb2JhbACCIDGKMIgrPwEBAQEJCQwHEQOsX5BBAQSDfGc
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,383,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="25782409"
Received: from mail-bw0-f180.google.com ([209.85.218.180])
  by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 18 Mar 2009 11:38:42 +0100
Received: by bwz28 with SMTP id 28so549884bwz.27
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:38:42 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlemail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
        bh=eja0ZRm1q004anmfPwHxEUlfskANwoLlwPlk0CIjb9A=;
        b=Eqw+tzUDr/MRWRSDLEdMaXUiHwUn4DZprcJnvwr0nRfAdqTh9iAeGW0pbYDzPq587Q
         Lsd02tXmKS+kMzsMcHoomFag5iJSf6sOPaPnZkFTUqc2WpH3cPaWXM4+S1z39YjvccdU
         gVx0Q/LXjlKJruyh4DATOmaEBs+uZffqGvKrU=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=googlemail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :cc:content-type;
        b=ZCjLhhu/9qaUfR5ZptWry75WYXr8UEHiinaqqQoKZDuvAI/XgQviFhQzS6yf+XCbka
         abIlw7SegopVlKQNqXs/3UsCXUPvvz+eGjSMn1LZFiExx+ReyEKDKlQf8bDbYWmUUsCP
         XbzUS5ZBKlYgVxdZm0FNfjX4qMVh3Cztm66/w=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.223.126.145 with SMTP id c17mr856283fas.102.1237372722333; 
	Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:38:42 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <001636458a869b1866046558304d@google.com>
References: <f8560b80903170656o64a9f16aia58f376b50887689@mail.gmail.com>
	 <001636458a869b1866046558304d@google.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:38:42 +0100
Message-ID: <721f7f5a0903180338s7d0639fbo52247bedacc8c3ff@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Philippe Veber <philippe.veber@googlemail.com>
To: xahlee@gmail.com
Cc: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a73691c8f104656249ef
X-Spam: no; 0.00; mixins:01 camlp:01 guis:01 compilation:01 markus:01 mottl:01 markus:01 mottl:01 beginner's:01 ocaml:01 bug:01 mixins:01 camlp:01 guis:01 compilation:01 
X-Attachments: cset="UTF-8" cset="UTF-8" 

--001636c5a73691c8f104656249ef
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Suggestions to have this thread die quickly:
1. be more polite, and don't treat people with different opinions like lazy
ignorants that should read *your* reference textbook before talking.
Hopefully no old-school marxist (and I know there are some on this list ;o)=
)
has bothered us with citations from Castioriadis, Che Guevara and Bob
Marley. Please don't let this happen : reply that you understand the
relevance of the initial question and that you'd be happy to debate on an
appropriate medium.
2. be more aggressive (for instance say that Marx should have taken care of
his beard instead of writing nonsense), create a mailing list
bored-camlist-free-market-argument@yquem.inria and announce a battle royale
on it. Settle it like real men do, but elsewhere ;o).

And then, maybe we could go back to "stuff that matters", like mixins, GADT=
,
ocamlbuild and camlp4 documentation, native opengl GUIs, LLVM compilation,
batteries etc ... all those topics for which this list (and its members) ar=
e
so valuable !

ph.




2009/3/17 <xahlee@gmail.com>

> On Mar 17, 2009 6:56am, Markus Mottl <markus.mottl@gmail.com> wrote:
> > As someone else here has already suggested, I encourage everyone that
> > wishes to learn more about different models of economy to pick up any
> > reputable, introductory textbook on microeconomics. It will teach you
> > that markets, by and large, work well, that they can sometimes fail,
> > can also fail systematically in certain areas, and that it is
> > extremely hard to find good solutions for the latter that do not cause
> > more problems than they solve. Ideological quick fixes do not exist,
> > just as the optimal type sytem doesn't so no more flames please...
>
> well said.
>
> For those of you ignorant of the basics, i recommend:
>
> Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy
> by Thomas Sowell.
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465002609/
>
> I read the first edition in the dot come age circa 2000, alone with other
> books that helped me understand stocks and related financial things. I've
> read Thomas's book 2 more times in the early 2000s.
>
> Xah
> =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/
>
> =E2=98=84
> _______________________________________________
> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management:
> http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list
> Archives: http://caml.inria.fr
> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
>
>

--001636c5a73691c8f104656249ef
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Suggestions to have this thread die quickly:<br>1. be more polite, and don&=
#39;t treat people with different opinions like lazy ignorants that should =
read *your* reference textbook before talking. Hopefully no old-school marx=
ist (and I know there are some on this list ;o)) has bothered us with citat=
ions from Castioriadis, Che Guevara and Bob Marley. Please don&#39;t let th=
is happen : reply that you understand the relevance of the initial question=
 and that you&#39;d be happy to debate on an appropriate medium.<br>
2. be more aggressive (for instance say that Marx should have taken care of=
 his beard instead of writing nonsense), create a mailing list bored-camlis=
t-free-market-argument@yquem.inria and announce a battle royale on it. Sett=
le it like real men do, but elsewhere ;o).<br>
<br>And then, maybe we could go back to &quot;stuff that matters&quot;, lik=
e mixins, GADT, ocamlbuild and camlp4 documentation, native opengl GUIs, LL=
VM compilation, batteries etc ... all those topics for which this list (and=
 its members) are so valuable !<br>
<br>ph.<br><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/3/17  <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xahlee@gmail.com">xahlee@gmail.com</a>&gt;</=
span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On Mar 17, 2009 6:56am, Markus Mottl &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:markus.mottl@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">markus.mottl@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>&gt; As someone else here has already suggested, I encourage ever=
yone that<br>
&gt; wishes to learn more about different models of economy to pick up any<=
br>&gt; reputable, introductory textbook on microeconomics.  It will teach =
you<br>&gt; that markets, by and large, work well, that they can sometimes =
fail,<br>
&gt; can also fail systematically in certain areas, and that it is<br>&gt; =
extremely hard to find good solutions for the latter that do not cause<br>&=
gt; more problems than they solve.  Ideological quick fixes do not exist,<b=
r>
&gt; just as the optimal type sytem doesn&#39;t so no more flames please...=
<br><br></div>well said.<br><br>For those of you ignorant of the basics, i =
recommend:<br><br>Basic Economics: A Citizen&#39;s Guide to the Economy<br>
by Thomas Sowell.<br><a href=3D"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465=
002609/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/046500260=
9/</a><br><br>I read the first edition in the dot come age circa 2000, alon=
e with other books that helped me understand stocks and related financial t=
hings. I&#39;ve read Thomas&#39;s book 2 more times in the early 2000s.<br>
<br>  Xah<br>=E2=88=91 <a href=3D"http://xahlee.org/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://xahlee.org/</a><br><br>=E2=98=84<br>___________________________________=
____________<br>
Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management:<br>
<a href=3D"http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list" target=
=3D"_blank">http://yquem.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/caml-list</a><br=
>
Archives: <a href=3D"http://caml.inria.fr" target=3D"_blank">http://caml.in=
ria.fr</a><br>
Beginner&#39;s list: <a href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginne=
rs" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners</a><br>
Bug reports: <a href=3D"http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--001636c5a73691c8f104656249ef--


From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <loup.vaillant@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on yquem.inria.fr
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,
	SPF_NEUTRAL autolearn=disabled version=3.1.3
X-Original-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Delivered-To: caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83])
	by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7BCBBC4
	for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:49:50 +0100 (CET)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuQCAKSywUnRVYC4mWdsb2JhbACVMz8BAQEBAQgLCgcRqnSBBo9+AQMBA4N5Bg
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,388,1233529200"; 
   d="scan'208";a="22815979"
Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.184])
  by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 19 Mar 2009 10:49:39 +0100
Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b27so198402fka.11
        for <caml-list@yquem.inria.fr>; Thu, 19 Mar 2009 02:49:39 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=G97Qzl+OG+bA77SLn1l3YjDKve01lgKTNly9f8icQIs=;
        b=PPYq+qMAaCf4CJEt0tWZTtg+k+fC6Ky7MGibeVBDyerhoqooVws9gBCdRQ67dNZQHL
         +zx29kOCpltZRbiXkxkBYbfunQHie7kVlbFlnZro8efrH2TW/vhqzyntZDuwnQqJCwHf
         iWYYtazdkmrXrg5hbIHZjljSRbvvIJPR0KZ50=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=tMkebU2Nfcy5G+N5vOxUA1MRDWdb21b6yiG4zWb1yjg6AecV2KkRNjFK84XXIDyZ9j
         mQptQ8M/R99xy406FrtFmSWuL8ARDpMVqqbkIAVchfidfieCGVZ6+Mgn8EtJmjWsHQBa
         0+hEGemxH7fDzTaveGUQK8BCWqRSvLA5NPvNM=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.103.92.8 with SMTP id u8mr1011300mul.34.1237456178974; Thu, 19 
	Mar 2009 02:49:38 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <721f7f5a0903180338s7d0639fbo52247bedacc8c3ff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f8560b80903170656o64a9f16aia58f376b50887689@mail.gmail.com>
	 <001636458a869b1866046558304d@google.com>
	 <721f7f5a0903180338s7d0639fbo52247bedacc8c3ff@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:49:38 +0100
Message-ID: <6f9f8f4a0903190249t6847014gcd70dd91d74f5b7c@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [Caml-list] caml trading
From: Loup Vaillant <loup.vaillant@gmail.com>
To: Philippe Veber <philippe.veber@googlemail.com>
Cc: xahlee@gmail.com, caml-list@yquem.inria.fr
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam: no; 0.00; mixins:01 camlp:01 guis:01 compilation:01 cheers:01 2009:98 caml-list:01 lazy:02 caml:02 native:03 ignorant:03 ignorant:03 opengl:03 textbook:04 wich:05 

2009/3/18 Philippe Veber <philippe.veber@googlemail.com>:
> Suggestions to have this thread die quickly:
> 1. be more polite, and don't treat people with different opinions like la=
zy
> ignorants that should read *your* reference textbook before talking.

Err, Xah didn't sound offensive to me.
If I take "For those of you ignorant of the basics", literally (wich I
think was intended), the only way to be offended is to have an
*uninformed* different opinion.  I took this phrase personally because
I *am* Ignorant of the basics.  The book he proposed may convey a
particular ideology, but  I can't assume so.  And no, I have no right
to say anything about economics, until I have a clue beyond my salary.

Now, I may have misunderstood you. Sorry If I have.

> [=85]
> 2. be more aggressive [=85]

Anyway, your main point remains.

> And then, maybe we could go back to "stuff that matters", like mixins, GA=
DT,
> ocamlbuild and camlp4 documentation, native opengl GUIs, LLVM compilation=
,
> batteries etc ... all those topics for which this list (and its members) =
are
> so valuable !

You're right. *That* is our business.

Cheers,
Loup