From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 273A67F20B for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:12:40 +0100 (CET) Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=pra; client-ip=212.227.17.9; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=212.227.17.9; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: domain of postmaster@moutng.kundenserver.de designates 212.227.17.9 as permitted sender) identity=helo; client-ip=212.227.17.9; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="postmaster@moutng.kundenserver.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1" X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlwBAKOeG1HU4xEJfGdsb2JhbABErXuSbBYOAQELCQsHFAUkgh8BAQQBbQELMw1dCQQBDQYTCQkNh2EDCQoItH0DiWUViHOEQoQ5A41wiVGSPYFoJA X-IPAS-Result: AlwBAKOeG1HU4xEJfGdsb2JhbABErXuSbBYOAQELCQsHFAUkgh8BAQQBbQELMw1dCQQBDQYTCQkNh2EDCQoItH0DiWUViHOEQoQ5A41wiVGSPYFoJA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,657,1355094000"; d="scan'208";a="2081268" Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.9]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 13 Feb 2013 15:01:06 +0100 Received: from office1.lan.sumadev.de (dslb-094-219-217-035.pools.arcor-ip.net [94.219.217.35]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreu3) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MFE4N-1U70er0Lal-00GGUQ; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:12:38 +0100 Received: from samsung (ip-5-146-55-186.unitymediagroup.de [5.146.55.186]) by office1.lan.sumadev.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7103C00CF; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:12:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:12:36 +0100 From: Gerd Stolpmann To: Louis Gesbert Cc: Martin DeMello , "caml-list@inria.fr" In-Reply-To: <201302121229.41183.louis.gesbert@ocamlpro.com> (from louis.gesbert@ocamlpro.com on Tue Feb 12 12:29:41 2013) X-Mailer: Balsa 2.4.11 Message-Id: <1360764756.2379.7@samsung> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; DelSp=Yes; Format=Flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:8KJ9WHb1G9pJZwvBDZO3ldV3ygETD0pmgVWps9vLSRO 4hK3f1atOicCe7moerd4gEEQ/33hO28YFiy3MqTrmkH5/B4O0F SC9HVihK1Ye9M0ZH45wm5XPmxPYmtGpfM4vFei8xJog9nNygGx uxdTPfjfOtpPLT+bA1pXI0r3p6yQMHpMbpofZ4aKGlYMwCfrg9 7TBk8d7YdsvfZqhaNa3GpFhPfw7KTkpVQ8rXhozC+CySNcMKrt bcGbln2i3pmq5viLlAE7T8hpEZSAHyuB1Y+K7V0+6gZtjfPT3t Sp0cCXfCKY2yP/OiV9bvCO5SsRBJeEC/UZQTvUd8gXGIYdCy0o a13Qr8brJ/51fBrmDQtY= Subject: AW: [Caml-list] geany as an ocaml ide Hi, it is good to see that there is again some activity on the editor/ide=20=20 issue. However, I see that there is one main problem of all current=20=20 acitivities: nobody asks the potential users what they want. Of course, there are many "preferences" in this area, and this is=20=20 subjective, and not really debatable. You can like the result or not.=20=20 But - and this is my point - there are also hard requirements. Again,=20=20 this is different per user, but these points are not a matter of taste. Just to make an example: Personally, I'm still sticking to emacs=20=20 (although latest tuareg-mode is error-prone), mainly because it has one=20= =20 killer feature: Tramp. You need to know that I'm often not building my=20= =20 programs on the machine I'm sitting at, but I'm remotely logging in to=20= =20 another machine (often over continents). Tramp is an emacs module to=20=20 edit files remotely via ssh/sftp. My guess is that there are many other users who would profit from such=20= =20 a feature. Nevertheless, it is not popping up anywhere else - strange=20=20 enough, since we left the "PC" era long ago where everything had to=20=20 happen locally on your own computer. The IDEs seem not to have left=20=20 this era, and in a time where everything moves to the cloud this is=20=20 really anachronistic. It is clear to me that many features of IDEs are more difficult to=20=20 implement with such a requirement, as the latency to open files is way=20= =20 higher. But on my side there is nothing to discuss, as remotely editing=20= =20 files is more important than anything else. Another point from the perspective of a professional: There is=20=20 absolutely no need to integrate build support into the IDE (like=20=20 OCamlEditor tries to do). We have already utilities for this, and these=20= =20 are scriptable - which is a MUST-HAVE for all professional use (think=20=20 of continuous integration, for instance). Gerd Am 12.02.2013 12:29:41 schrieb(en) Louis Gesbert: > Hi, >=20 > No offence taken :). OCamlEditor indeed looks like a very interesting=20= =20 > project, > with lots of features already present. But the scope and project=20=20 > goals are not > the same though, so I think ocp-editor still has a place on its own ; >=20 > One of our main goals is to make IDE bricks available publicly, so I=20= =20 > think the > projects can benefit to one another. I would be glad to borrow some=20=20 > widgets from > OCamlEditor, and it could use automatic indentation or better=20=20 > toplevel process > interaction. >=20 > If the author -- Francesco Tovagliari -- is around here, I would be=20=20 > glad to know > how he feels about this ? >=20 > -- > Louis Gesbert, OCamlPro >=20 > Le mardi 12 f=E9vrier 2013 00:24:36, Martin DeMello a =E9crit : > > Hi Louis, > > > > That looks very interesting. Sorry if this seems like a rude=20=20 > question; > > I truly don't mean it that way, but if your editor needs a few=20=20 > months > > of work, why not work on a stripped-down interface for OCamlEditor > > [http://ocamleditor.forge.ocamlcore.org/] instead? I remember when I > > was learning web development I enjoyed using Evrsoft's "1st Page"=20=20 > IDE, > > which had modes that would add or remove bits from the interface as > > you progressed from beginner to power user, and something like that > > would be very nice to have for OCaml. > > > > martin > > > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Louis Gesbert > > > > wrote: > > > OCaml is definitely lacking in this area; I am at the moment=20=20 > working > > > precisely on solving this issue, with a dedicated Gtk editor that=20= =20 > runs > > > on Linux, OSX and Windows. It is pretty basic at the moment but=20=20 > already > > > has code edition and working toplevel interaction (no compilation=20= =20 > or > > > project yet). > > > > > > Release is intended in a few months from now, with sufficient=20=20 > features > > > for beginners and students. If successful, it will then be=20=20 > extended to > > > handle bigger projects (multi-file, build system integration,=20=20 > etc.). > > > > > > Until then, you may see the project's github page at > > > https://github.com/OCamlPro/ocp-edit-simple (name temporary) > > > > > > -- > > > Louis Gesbert, OCamlPro > > > > > > Le Monday 11 February 2013 01:49:41, Martin DeMello a =E9crit : > > >> I spent some time last night going through all the "what is a=20=20 > good > > >> (beginner's) ide for ocaml?" threads I could find online, and=20=20 > trying > > >> out the various options suggested. I ruled out the following: > > >> > > >> * vim, emacs and eclipse (not beginner-friendly; people who want=20= =20 > to > > >> use them will know how to do it) > > >> * anything that did not provide a binary install for Windows and=20= =20 > OSX, > > >> and wasn't a simple configure/make/make install on linux > > >> * anything that needed fiddling with config files just to=20=20 > install it > > >> * anything that needed the OCaml sources to be independently=20=20 > present > > >> and configured (!) > > >> * anything that was abandoned, or didn't seem to support OCaml 4 > > >> > > >> I was left with Geany and Komodo Edit as possibilities, and=20=20 > Geany won > > >> out by letting me open up a test.ml file and immediately being=20=20 > able to > > >> find and run the OCaml compiler. At least on Linux, it was a=20=20 > perfect > > >> beginner-friendly experience. > > >> > > >> So what do people think about ocaml.org officially promoting=20=20 > Geany as > > >> the answer to "I'm learning OCaml; what is a good IDE?"? I'd be=20= =20 > happy > > >> to write up a page on it and contribute it. > > >> > > >> martin > > > > > > -- > > > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > > > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >=20 > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >=20 --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de Creator of GODI and camlcity.org. Contact details: http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html Company homepage: http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------=