AW: AW: [Caml-list] geany as an ocaml ide

[Gerd Stolpmann <info@gerd-stolpmann.de>]

Am 13.02.2013 16:41:57 schrieb(en) Wojciech Meyer:
> Hi,
> 
> I think we should stick into two of these options:
> 
> - provide a exhaustive framework for supporting editors, with possible
>   bindings everywhere, and let the community to write needed plugs for
>   the existing editors.

I can well imagine such a toolkit - basically an editor without user  
interface. It would just consist of the underlying modules, and would  
solve all difficult tasks - like incremental indentation, or  
transparent network file access. Other developers can then pick things  
up - only parts, or everything - and I'm sure we'll see then a couple  
of GUIs on top of this, some expressive, some minimalistic, some  
specializing on certain domains (web, GUI, etc.), some cloning emacs.  
And, as you write, existing editors can be "upgraded" by providing  
bindings.

Let's call this "editor" ModelOnly (following the common  
model/view/controller abstraction).

> - the second important idea, is to introduce people that are not (yet)
>   familiar with software engineering as such, and they it's their  
> first
>   encounter with the programming. TryOCaml website does partial job of
>   dragging these people to OCaml world, however it solves very well
>   slightly different problem, it introduces people to OCaml regardless
>   previous exposure to writing code.  Here, I'm talking mostly here
>   about kids that want to write and see games in OCaml, students that
>   are interested in genuine programming but never happen to be
>   interested in tooling or they don't have time for it (or not  
> required
>   because they are not developers) and people that chosen that their
>   first ever programming language would be OCaml.

I think this is just a matter of a simple GUI that focuses on the parts  
that are important for beginners, e.g. explaining typing.

This is not something entirely different, but just a special  
application of the general editor library. IMO, the difficult part is  
really the model, not the GUI (let it be desktop or web based), as  
plugging a few Gtk widgets together is not that hard. Once there is a  
good model library we'll certainly see an excellent GUI focusing on  
students.

> So I understand the confusion here, but I think we should clearly draw
> the line between providing a framework for others to support editing,
> and very simple and domain specific editor for the beginners.

I completely agree that there are totally different requirements if you  
compare the needs of beginners and professionals. However, this is  
mostly a matter of presentation, and implementation-wise, there is a  
lot of overlap, and also an editor for beginners would profit from a  
good model library.

Gerd

> 
> --
> Wojciech Meyer
> http://danmey.org
> 
> PS: tramp is also one of the must have features to me in Emacs.
> 
> Gerd Stolpmann <info@gerd-stolpmann.de> writes:
> 
> 
> > Just to make an example: Personally, I'm still sticking to emacs
> > (although latest tuareg-mode is error-prone), mainly because it has  
> one
> > killer feature: Tramp. You need to know that I'm often not building  
> my
> > programs on the machine I'm sitting at, but I'm remotely logging in  
> to
> > another machine (often over continents). Tramp is an emacs module to
> > edit files remotely via ssh/sftp.
> Yes, I also require tramp.
> >
> > My guess is that there are many other users who would profit from  
> such
> > a feature. Nevertheless, it is not popping up anywhere else -  
> strange
> > enough, since we left the "PC" era long ago where everything had to
> > happen locally on your own computer. The IDEs seem not to have left
> > this era, and in a time where everything moves to the cloud this is
> > really anachronistic.
> >
> > It is clear to me that many features of IDEs are more difficult to
> > implement with such a requirement, as the latency to open files is  
> way
> > higher. But on my side there is nothing to discuss, as remotely  
> editing
> > files is more important than anything else.
> >
> > Another point from the perspective of a professional: There is
> > absolutely no need to integrate build support into the IDE (like
> > OCamlEditor tries to do). We have already utilities for this, and  
> these
> > are scriptable - which is a MUST-HAVE for all professional use  
> (think
> > of continuous integration, for instance).
> >
> > Gerd
> >
> >
> > Am 12.02.2013 12:29:41 schrieb(en) Louis Gesbert:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> No offence taken :). OCamlEditor indeed looks like a very  
> interesting
> >> project,
> >> with lots of features already present. But the scope and project
> >> goals are not
> >> the same though, so I think ocp-editor still has a place on its  
> own ;
> >>
> >> One of our main goals is to make IDE bricks available publicly, so  
> I
> >> think the
> >> projects can benefit to one another. I would be glad to borrow some
> >> widgets from
> >> OCamlEditor, and it could use automatic indentation or better
> >> toplevel process
> >> interaction.
> >>
> >> If the author -- Francesco Tovagliari -- is around here, I would be
> >> glad to know
> >> how he feels about this ?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Louis Gesbert, OCamlPro
> >>
> >> Le mardi 12 février 2013 00:24:36, Martin DeMello a écrit :
> >> > Hi Louis,
> >> >
> >> > That looks very interesting. Sorry if this seems like a rude
> >> question;
> >> > I truly don't mean it that way, but if your editor needs a few
> >> months
> >> > of work, why not work on a stripped-down interface for  
> OCamlEditor
> >> > [http://ocamleditor.forge.ocamlcore.org/] instead? I remember  
> when I
> >> > was learning web development I enjoyed using Evrsoft's "1st Page"
> >> IDE,
> >> > which had modes that would add or remove bits from the interface  
> as
> >> > you progressed from beginner to power user, and something like  
> that
> >> > would be very nice to have for OCaml.
> >> >
> >> > martin
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Louis Gesbert
> >> >
> >> > <louis.gesbert@ocamlpro.com> wrote:
> >> > > OCaml is definitely lacking in this area; I am at the moment
> >> working
> >> > > precisely on solving this issue, with a dedicated Gtk editor  
> that
> >> runs
> >> > > on Linux, OSX and Windows. It is pretty basic at the moment but
> >> already
> >> > > has code edition and working toplevel interaction (no  
> compilation
> >> or
> >> > > project yet).
> >> > >
> >> > > Release is intended in a few months from now, with sufficient
> >> features
> >> > > for beginners and students. If successful, it will then be
> >> extended to
> >> > > handle bigger projects (multi-file, build system integration,
> >> etc.).
> >> > >
> >> > > Until then, you may see the project's github page at
> >> > > https://github.com/OCamlPro/ocp-edit-simple (name temporary)
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Louis Gesbert, OCamlPro
> >> > >
> >> > > Le Monday 11 February 2013 01:49:41, Martin DeMello a écrit :
> >> > >> I spent some time last night going through all the "what is a
> >> good
> >> > >> (beginner's) ide for ocaml?" threads I could find online, and
> >> trying
> >> > >> out the various options suggested. I ruled out the following:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> * vim, emacs and eclipse (not beginner-friendly; people who  
> want
> >> to
> >> > >> use them will know how to do it)
> >> > >> * anything that did not provide a binary install for Windows  
> and
> >> OSX,
> >> > >> and wasn't a simple configure/make/make install on linux
> >> > >> * anything that needed fiddling with config files just to
> >> install it
> >> > >> * anything that needed the OCaml sources to be independently
> >> present
> >> > >> and configured (!)
> >> > >> * anything that was abandoned, or didn't seem to support  
> OCaml 4
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I was left with Geany and Komodo Edit as possibilities, and
> >> Geany won
> >> > >> out by letting me open up a test.ml file and immediately being
> >> able to
> >> > >> find and run the OCaml compiler. At least on Linux, it was a
> >> perfect
> >> > >> beginner-friendly experience.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> So what do people think about ocaml.org officially promoting
> >> Geany as
> >> > >> the answer to "I'm learning OCaml; what is a good IDE?"? I'd  
> be
> >> happy
> >> > >> to write up a page on it and contribute it.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> martin
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Caml-list mailing list.  Subscription management and archives:
> >> > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
> >> > > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners
> >> > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
> >>
> >> --
> >> Caml-list mailing list.  Subscription management and archives:
> >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list
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> >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany    gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de
> > Creator of GODI and camlcity.org.
> > Contact details:        http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html
> > Company homepage:       http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --
> Caml-list mailing list.  Subscription management and archives:
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> 



-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany    gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de
Creator of GODI and camlcity.org.
Contact details:        http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html
Company homepage:       http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de
------------------------------------------------------------