From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DC8F7F20B for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:09:58 +0100 (CET) Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=pra; client-ip=212.227.17.9; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=212.227.17.9; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr: domain of postmaster@moutng.kundenserver.de designates 212.227.17.9 as permitted sender) identity=helo; client-ip=212.227.17.9; receiver=mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="postmaster@moutng.kundenserver.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1" X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AukAAGfIG1HU4xEJfGdsb2JhbABFrX2ScRYOAQELCQsHFAUkgh8BAQQBbQELBS4NXQkSBhMJCQILh2EDCQoItSwDiWUViHOEMRIMhC0DjXCJUZI9gWgCHgQ X-IPAS-Result: AukAAGfIG1HU4xEJfGdsb2JhbABFrX2ScRYOAQELCQsHFAUkgh8BAQQBbQELBS4NXQkSBhMJCQILh2EDCQoItSwDiWUViHOEMRIMhC0DjXCJUZI9gWgCHgQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,658,1355094000"; d="scan'208";a="2110265" Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.9]) by mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 13 Feb 2013 17:58:18 +0100 Received: from office1.lan.sumadev.de (dslb-094-219-217-035.pools.arcor-ip.net [94.219.217.35]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreu4) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0M9zDA-1UCIbj0fIe-00B3D0; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:09:55 +0100 Received: from samsung (ip-5-146-55-186.unitymediagroup.de [5.146.55.186]) by office1.lan.sumadev.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C5D3CC00CF; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:09:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:09:53 +0100 From: Gerd Stolpmann To: Wojciech Meyer Cc: Louis Gesbert , Martin DeMello , "caml-list@inria.fr" In-Reply-To: (from wojciech.meyer@gmail.com on Wed Feb 13 16:41:57 2013) X-Mailer: Balsa 2.4.11 Message-Id: <1360775393.2379.8@samsung> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; DelSp=Yes; Format=Flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:HyrSD3yIMg3DxGgB9/T7qCqzUAxAEZdttapvMZGkyeo s9lFdgtzQzy2JrV/8EI5rfRI7mnTqwHRGBoB19s++NNWw1DXXi CE13B45WCLfk5G7pIlv59RdXL6IIurPalyj2hL8zP68H1Lbgit gmCeqtbVJNLnxO9KwloK+vl6qsBFFJkP3Pc9xZ29BV/9IHoPP4 PsluJHsxsJoenRGHSC+6g1Nou+w+TWfAmY5nv0SX6Rc8vVYc9S ukOwuHbyqmEU00nL7tRZIzOEcYFv1hC6ytoPYZamrT6+0JXWXc oxrz0pqz6TL8n+zCIjuX2OXNVpqwJaHzRGIG9UXwAX8OEt57yq nINlWf3BgohYz/qx8Wvs= Subject: AW: AW: [Caml-list] geany as an ocaml ide Am 13.02.2013 16:41:57 schrieb(en) Wojciech Meyer: > Hi, >=20 > I think we should stick into two of these options: >=20 > - provide a exhaustive framework for supporting editors, with possible > bindings everywhere, and let the community to write needed plugs for > the existing editors. I can well imagine such a toolkit - basically an editor without user=20=20 interface. It would just consist of the underlying modules, and would=20=20 solve all difficult tasks - like incremental indentation, or=20=20 transparent network file access. Other developers can then pick things=20= =20 up - only parts, or everything - and I'm sure we'll see then a couple=20=20 of GUIs on top of this, some expressive, some minimalistic, some=20=20 specializing on certain domains (web, GUI, etc.), some cloning emacs.=20=20 And, as you write, existing editors can be "upgraded" by providing=20=20 bindings. Let's call this "editor" ModelOnly (following the common=20=20 model/view/controller abstraction). > - the second important idea, is to introduce people that are not (yet) > familiar with software engineering as such, and they it's their=20=20 > first > encounter with the programming. TryOCaml website does partial job of > dragging these people to OCaml world, however it solves very well > slightly different problem, it introduces people to OCaml regardless > previous exposure to writing code. Here, I'm talking mostly here > about kids that want to write and see games in OCaml, students that > are interested in genuine programming but never happen to be > interested in tooling or they don't have time for it (or not=20=20 > required > because they are not developers) and people that chosen that their > first ever programming language would be OCaml. I think this is just a matter of a simple GUI that focuses on the parts=20= =20 that are important for beginners, e.g. explaining typing. This is not something entirely different, but just a special=20=20 application of the general editor library. IMO, the difficult part is=20=20 really the model, not the GUI (let it be desktop or web based), as=20=20 plugging a few Gtk widgets together is not that hard. Once there is a=20=20 good model library we'll certainly see an excellent GUI focusing on=20=20 students. > So I understand the confusion here, but I think we should clearly draw > the line between providing a framework for others to support editing, > and very simple and domain specific editor for the beginners. I completely agree that there are totally different requirements if you=20= =20 compare the needs of beginners and professionals. However, this is=20=20 mostly a matter of presentation, and implementation-wise, there is a=20=20 lot of overlap, and also an editor for beginners would profit from a=20=20 good model library. Gerd >=20 > -- > Wojciech Meyer > http://danmey.org >=20 > PS: tramp is also one of the must have features to me in Emacs. >=20 > Gerd Stolpmann writes: >=20 >=20 > > Just to make an example: Personally, I'm still sticking to emacs > > (although latest tuareg-mode is error-prone), mainly because it has=20= =20 > one > > killer feature: Tramp. You need to know that I'm often not building=20= =20 > my > > programs on the machine I'm sitting at, but I'm remotely logging in=20= =20 > to > > another machine (often over continents). Tramp is an emacs module to > > edit files remotely via ssh/sftp. > Yes, I also require tramp. > > > > My guess is that there are many other users who would profit from=20=20 > such > > a feature. Nevertheless, it is not popping up anywhere else -=20=20 > strange > > enough, since we left the "PC" era long ago where everything had to > > happen locally on your own computer. The IDEs seem not to have left > > this era, and in a time where everything moves to the cloud this is > > really anachronistic. > > > > It is clear to me that many features of IDEs are more difficult to > > implement with such a requirement, as the latency to open files is=20= =20 > way > > higher. But on my side there is nothing to discuss, as remotely=20=20 > editing > > files is more important than anything else. > > > > Another point from the perspective of a professional: There is > > absolutely no need to integrate build support into the IDE (like > > OCamlEditor tries to do). We have already utilities for this, and=20=20 > these > > are scriptable - which is a MUST-HAVE for all professional use=20=20 > (think > > of continuous integration, for instance). > > > > Gerd > > > > > > Am 12.02.2013 12:29:41 schrieb(en) Louis Gesbert: > >> Hi, > >> > >> No offence taken :). OCamlEditor indeed looks like a very=20=20 > interesting > >> project, > >> with lots of features already present. But the scope and project > >> goals are not > >> the same though, so I think ocp-editor still has a place on its=20=20 > own ; > >> > >> One of our main goals is to make IDE bricks available publicly, so=20= =20 > I > >> think the > >> projects can benefit to one another. I would be glad to borrow some > >> widgets from > >> OCamlEditor, and it could use automatic indentation or better > >> toplevel process > >> interaction. > >> > >> If the author -- Francesco Tovagliari -- is around here, I would be > >> glad to know > >> how he feels about this ? > >> > >> -- > >> Louis Gesbert, OCamlPro > >> > >> Le mardi 12 f=E9vrier 2013 00:24:36, Martin DeMello a =E9crit : > >> > Hi Louis, > >> > > >> > That looks very interesting. Sorry if this seems like a rude > >> question; > >> > I truly don't mean it that way, but if your editor needs a few > >> months > >> > of work, why not work on a stripped-down interface for=20=20 > OCamlEditor > >> > [http://ocamleditor.forge.ocamlcore.org/] instead? I remember=20=20 > when I > >> > was learning web development I enjoyed using Evrsoft's "1st Page" > >> IDE, > >> > which had modes that would add or remove bits from the interface=20= =20 > as > >> > you progressed from beginner to power user, and something like=20=20 > that > >> > would be very nice to have for OCaml. > >> > > >> > martin > >> > > >> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Louis Gesbert > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> > > OCaml is definitely lacking in this area; I am at the moment > >> working > >> > > precisely on solving this issue, with a dedicated Gtk editor=20=20 > that > >> runs > >> > > on Linux, OSX and Windows. It is pretty basic at the moment but > >> already > >> > > has code edition and working toplevel interaction (no=20=20 > compilation > >> or > >> > > project yet). > >> > > > >> > > Release is intended in a few months from now, with sufficient > >> features > >> > > for beginners and students. If successful, it will then be > >> extended to > >> > > handle bigger projects (multi-file, build system integration, > >> etc.). > >> > > > >> > > Until then, you may see the project's github page at > >> > > https://github.com/OCamlPro/ocp-edit-simple (name temporary) > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > Louis Gesbert, OCamlPro > >> > > > >> > > Le Monday 11 February 2013 01:49:41, Martin DeMello a =E9crit : > >> > >> I spent some time last night going through all the "what is a > >> good > >> > >> (beginner's) ide for ocaml?" threads I could find online, and > >> trying > >> > >> out the various options suggested. I ruled out the following: > >> > >> > >> > >> * vim, emacs and eclipse (not beginner-friendly; people who=20=20 > want > >> to > >> > >> use them will know how to do it) > >> > >> * anything that did not provide a binary install for Windows=20= =20 > and > >> OSX, > >> > >> and wasn't a simple configure/make/make install on linux > >> > >> * anything that needed fiddling with config files just to > >> install it > >> > >> * anything that needed the OCaml sources to be independently > >> present > >> > >> and configured (!) > >> > >> * anything that was abandoned, or didn't seem to support=20=20 > OCaml 4 > >> > >> > >> > >> I was left with Geany and Komodo Edit as possibilities, and > >> Geany won > >> > >> out by letting me open up a test.ml file and immediately being > >> able to > >> > >> find and run the OCaml compiler. At least on Linux, it was a > >> perfect > >> > >> beginner-friendly experience. > >> > >> > >> > >> So what do people think about ocaml.org officially promoting > >> Geany as > >> > >> the answer to "I'm learning OCaml; what is a good IDE?"? I'd=20= =20 > be > >> happy > >> > >> to write up a page on it and contribute it. > >> > >> > >> > >> martin > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > >> > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > >> > > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > >> > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > >> > >> -- > >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de > > Creator of GODI and camlcity.org. > > Contact details: http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html > > Company homepage: http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >=20 > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >=20 --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de Creator of GODI and camlcity.org. Contact details: http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html Company homepage: http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------=