From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A23281799 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:57:14 +0200 (CEST) Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=pra; client-ip=212.227.126.171; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=212.227.126.171; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: domain of postmaster@moutng.kundenserver.de designates 212.227.126.171 as permitted sender) identity=helo; client-ip=212.227.126.171; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="postmaster@moutng.kundenserver.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1" X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Al8EADlE7lHU436rbWdsb2JhbABbMYMKrGyBepIjgREWDgsLDAYWAyWCJAEBBAE6NAsQIw0hIRsJBAENBhMJCQKHagMJCgivXgMKiF4WiU2DRYJFJgeDfgOOZYcPgxKKfog6 X-IPAS-Result: Al8EADlE7lHU436rbWdsb2JhbABbMYMKrGyBepIjgREWDgsLDAYWAyWCJAEBBAE6NAsQIw0hIRsJBAENBhMJCQKHagMJCgivXgMKiF4WiU2DRYJFJgeDfgOOZYcPgxKKfog6 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,726,1367964000"; d="scan'208";a="26982673" Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.171]) by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 23 Jul 2013 10:57:13 +0200 Received: from office1.lan.sumadev.de (dslb-094-219-211-114.pools.arcor-ip.net [94.219.211.114]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreu1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0M1CM0-1U8dQu3zvU-00tVPD; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:57:13 +0200 Received: from samsung (546BF816.cm-12-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl [84.107.248.22]) by office1.lan.sumadev.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95E55C00CF; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:57:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:57:12 +0200 From: Gerd Stolpmann To: Keyan Cc: Gabriel Scherer , Anil Madhavapeddy , caml-list@inria.fr, godi-list@ocaml-programming.de References: <71283BB9-C314-490E-B9ED-B3638DB6914D@pulsschlag.net> In-Reply-To: <71283BB9-C314-490E-B9ED-B3638DB6914D@pulsschlag.net> (from ml@pulsschlag.net on Tue Jul 23 10:46:41 2013) X-Mailer: Balsa 2.4.11 Message-Id: <1374569832.25411.1@samsung> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; DelSp=Yes; Format=Flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:I8gfeF6mW0xTVsSGZxMunFAYnng4tTXskunXdN9V5Xl Ux8BQ7QGk2jICbVRW8/QQp9KS3KFc+gk0Jsp3TkLJE6kZ42mRj Sa/HPvFG1iOTHhhNs9NJpFfcVTsEoWA5rAgYKGPr6COpD/0CdM kaLdEFM6xo/rCO9NLqAUEWtCa6/edfPEtf6mqoaRyeEDYq5kXI NXCN7s21Z2PZIE7Dx+nvJwFBmhy8nE2hn/vuiYrmzSNctUxJpl PDdZzIIiscgGMFpj49f3ITmUEoruaZ3vXIxC5Glx6DRxMvakc+ p9b5Kxk2KHYW+DrNetiRlcuQdd/htBYXejAwCLJ4ul5M74yy1n RUBTvjmszZWI0izQ+B98= Subject: AW: [Caml-list] GODI is shutting down Am 23.07.2013 10:46:41 schrieb(en) Keyan: > Just to through in my 2 cents. I didn't understand what GODI did,=20=20 > when I first tried it. Therefore, I sticked with my OS package manage=20= =20 > for a long time (home-brew on Mac OS X). The reason I now use OPAM,=20=20 > it worked straight out of the box, and I know exactly what is=20=20 > happening. The biggest benefit: there is a clean and easy way to=20=20 > uninstall everything (rm -rf ~/.opam), which is the killer argument=20=20 > for me. >=20 > This is not intended to heat up the discussion, but to explain, from=20= =20 > a regular user perspective, why I chose opam over godi. This is just misinformation, and no argument, because godi also=20=20 installs into a separate directory hierarchy. You are a victim of=20=20 OPAM's campaign. Gerd >=20 > Cheers, > Keyan >=20 >=20 > On 23 Jul 2013, at 08:49, Gabriel Scherer =20= =20 > wrote: >=20 > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Anil Madhavapeddy=20=20 > wrote: > >> Instead of doing such a heroic solo job (which I'm not being funny=20= =20 > about -- > >> it really is a lot of work), why not spend the time to open up=20=20 > GODI as well? > >> > >> Most of the OPAM package descriptions come from *other people*. We=20= =20 > just review > >> them, give feedback if necessary, click the merge button and fix=20=20 > errors that > >> creep through. And even that takes up a surprising amount of=20=20 > time... > > > > To be fair, I never felt GODI to be a closed system. There are in=20=20 > fact > > a reasonable number that were packaged by someone else than Gerd=20=20 > (see > > http://godi.camlcity.org/godi/packages.html , the "released by"=20=20 > field > > on packages; several were packaged by Virgile Prevosto, for=20=20 > example). > > It's more that the packaging for GODI is a bit more difficult, and > > probably just as importantly as there never was a strong community > > dynamics to contribute to GODI packaging. It is now the norm that > > everyone should write a META file for ocamlfind, and it is becoming > > the norm to package for OPAM, but GODI probably came too early at a > > time where developers expected distributions to do the packaging=20=20 > work > > (which Debian and Fedora still do superbly), and there never was=20=20 > much > > of a community dynamics for GODI packaging. > > > > And implementation-wise, I have had the pleasure of interacting with > > Gerd a couple of time to discuss possible changes to ocamlfind, and=20= =20 > I > > did not get the impression that the project was "closed"; I'm quite > > sure anyone could contribute (or have contributed) to GODI with a > > well-justified, good-looking patch. > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Anil Madhavapeddy=20=20 > wrote: > >> On 22 Jul 2013, at 22:21, "Gerd Stolpmann"=20=20 > wrote: > >> > >>> There is also another point that was driving me mad in the past=20=20 > weeks, > >>> namely missing respect from the OPAM guys. Given the fact that=20=20 > OPAM is > >>> only a thin layer around ocamlfind (and guess who wrote it), and=20= =20 > given the > >>> fact that GODI was pioneering in many fields, I was expecting=20=20 > nicer > >>> wordings, and less dumb campaigning ("we have 400 packages, and=20=20 > you only > >>> 170"). OPAM is only harvesting what I seeded many years ago. > >> > >> So when you describe the virtues of GODI, you call it=20=20 > 'advocating', and when > >> Fabrice describes the virtues of OPAM, it's 'dumb campaigning'.=20=20 > This is > >> splendidly reminiscent of US politics! > >> > >> I don't find any of this source-based package management=20=20 > particularly novel. > >> I've worked in the OpenBSD ports tree since the late 90s, and it's=20= =20 > way ahead > >> of either OPAM or GODI. I think where OPAM contributes most over=20=20 > any other > >> source manager are the three points on the front page that I=20=20 > iterated earlier > >> in this thread: > >> > >> - multiple simultaneous compiler installations. > >> - flexible package constraints. > >> - a Git-friendly development workflow. > >> > >> The first is very useful, but PATH munging is certainly not novel.=20= =20 > The Git > >> workflow is heavily inspired by Homebrew. > >> > >> The constraint solver has seen a tremendous amount of work though: > >> there's one version built into OPAM (tweaked relentlessly by=20=20 > Thomas with > >> heuristics), and the external CUDF solvers from the Mancoosi=20=20 > project which > >> are magically accurate (but not yet integrated by default until=20=20 > they are > >> packaged on different repositories). > >> > >> Anyway, I'm not a GODI user, but I think you're doing a disservice=20= =20 > to your > >> loyal GODI users if you shut it down in a huff. There are features=20= =20 > (notably > >> Windows support) where it'll take OPAM some time to catch up. I=20=20 > think that > >> the real reason that you're shutting it is nothing to do with=20=20 > "respect", but > >> is good old-fashioned burnt-out: > >> > >>> Although there are still a lot of GODI users, it is unavoidable=20=20 > to shut GODI down due to lack of supporters, especially package=20=20 > developers. I was more or less alone in the past months, and my time=20= =20 > contingent will not allow it to do the upgrade to OCaml 4.01 alone=20=20 > (when it is released). > >> > >> Instead of doing such a heroic solo job (which I'm not being funny=20= =20 > about -- > >> it really is a lot of work), why not spend the time to open up=20=20 > GODI as well? > >> > >> Most of the OPAM package descriptions come from *other people*. We=20= =20 > just review > >> them, give feedback if necessary, click the merge button and fix=20=20 > errors that > >> creep through. And even that takes up a surprising amount of=20=20 > time... > >> > >> -anil > >> -- > >> Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > >> https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > >> Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > >> Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs > > > > -- > > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >=20 >=20 > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs >=20 --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de Creator of GODI and camlcity.org. Contact details: http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html Company homepage: http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------=