From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF9AA81799 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:36:13 +0200 (CEST) Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=pra; client-ip=212.227.17.8; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=212.227.17.8; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: domain of postmaster@moutng.kundenserver.de designates 212.227.17.8 as permitted sender) identity=helo; client-ip=212.227.17.8; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="postmaster@moutng.kundenserver.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1" X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjABAA/J71HU4xEIk2dsb2JhbABbgzuvKJIpgRcWDgEBAQEHCwsJFAMlgiQBAQU6LwEECzMNXQkSBhMJCQILh18DEwiwLQOIaBaJPIR6gQgmB4QAA45niiGTOg X-IPAS-Result: AjABAA/J71HU4xEIk2dsb2JhbABbgzuvKJIpgRcWDgEBAQEHCwsJFAMlgiQBAQU6LwEECzMNXQkSBhMJCQILh18DEwiwLQOIaBaJPIR6gQgmB4QAA45niiGTOg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,735,1367964000"; d="scan'208";a="27152781" Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.8]) by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 24 Jul 2013 14:36:13 +0200 Received: from office1.lan.sumadev.de (dslb-084-059-067-221.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.67.221]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrbap1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MBI8r-1Urpwj3jy1-00AnRO; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:36:09 +0200 Received: from samsung (546BF816.cm-12-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl [84.107.248.22]) by office1.lan.sumadev.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 847EAC00CF; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:36:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:36:08 +0200 From: Gerd Stolpmann To: Fabrice Le Fessant Cc: Francois Berenger , Ocaml Mailing List In-Reply-To: (from Fabrice.Le_fessant@inria.fr on Wed Jul 24 09:03:46 2013) X-Mailer: Balsa 2.4.11 Message-Id: <1374669368.25411.5@samsung> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; DelSp=Yes; Format=Flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:NepHAr3xBE52ZUR1mKQH2DZTuJx8Jte7NZx06xkbmYy IIGIOmYyVJqbE+fe3kW76iNB/W2z77nnVkTupNb12CFTiAs8ZD WydMyhEQdVMHSuQODzwQJnyJTBj2umqONVfHjKRfZHOIKYoFPg NRR8TsotsV87QklSaifHjVVpaz4Nx0zzHA9UkSedaFRSXVhzYJ 6i60cTP2h2YevGx9SL3+IYqKV62grDLKvIvoT61VOMiCFrLX/m QG5o19Dl5TDRXlZhK7UGmvnt3G2Cy9WQJwPall4eAy8U95NXbJ UUIVOLkJ/9PwJyX/BCMhV631pbUQiLDdK53BN/S2RmoOPnOZWV s3mkHe0gIMTGLG3qd/tU= Subject: AW: [Caml-list] GODI is shutting down Let me answer to this message, because it is again fact-based, and not=20= =20 full of unproven or poor-quality claims. I hope the reader can now understand that OPAM is set up as competing=20=20 project from the beginning. Basically, three organizations joined to=20=20 create a new software. The discussion about the design wasn't public. I=20= =20 was excluded from the beginning - and don't understand why, since I=20=20 made an offer for cooperation when I first heard from Ocamlpro's plans=20= =20 (not about OPAM in particular, but other stuff, but I suggested to=20=20 cooperate in package manager questions). I never got a response to my=20=20 initiative. Instead, there was later questionable behavior from=20=20 Ocamlpro, namely that they copied (at least parts of) GODI packages,=20=20 without having asked for permission. (In particular, there was evidence=20= =20 that they copied the package description texts.) This might be legal,=20=20 but the reader will understand that this is unfriendly, and=20=20 unneccessarily aggressive. At that point it was clear that they are=20=20 trying to push GODI aside, even with questionable means. In the past days I made the experience that OPAM advocates never answer=20= =20 to any of my objections. When I said "GODI has feature xy, why doesn't=20= =20 OPAM has this too?" the only response is something like "OPAM has this=20= =20 great Github-based workflow" (the most harmless variant). Discussion=20=20 impossible. Fabrice claims that OPAM has GODI's strengths and tries to avoid its=20=20 weaknesses. I'd say this is just a personal view, because there was=20=20 never a public discussion (and Fabrice would probably be surprised what=20= =20 I consider as GODI's strengths). I know very well where GODI's=20=20 weaknesses are, but I'm sure a public discussion would reveal that=20=20 there are a number of useful features that are currently missing in=20=20 OPAM, and where "we use Github" is no excuse. It would be very helpful=20= =20 if the OPAM developers would a bit more self-critical, and did not=20=20 continuously claim that their software is superior (well, you know=20=20 Github, and dose3). Let me only add one fundamental point where I think OPAM just takes=20=20 just one direction, and that it is worth a discussion never done. One=20=20 of the principles seems to be to make it as easy and comfortable as=20=20 possible to package up libraries. At the first glance a good thing, but=20= =20 if you look deeper you'll see that this principle collides with other=20=20 ideas, and at least a modification of the principle is worth a thought.=20= =20 There is the QA question, at least for the main repository (NB. as the=20= =20 bad word of "dictator" was mentioned - yes, for the main repository=20=20 there is a dictator, both in OPAM and GODI, but belive me there is=20=20 enough anti-power). There are features in package management that are a=20= =20 hassle for the packager, like clean deinstallation, or how well a=20=20 library is integrated into the OS. So far I've the impression OPAM just=20= =20 ignores this, in the hope to attract as many packagers as possible. It=20= =20 would be a bad deal if packager's interests always won over user's=20=20 interests. A final remark to Fabrice's side story. Of course, it is normal that=20=20 software is suddenly no popular anymore, and users switch to a=20=20 different product. The user decides, after all, and developers=20=20 shouldn't take this personally. The software market is a jungle.=20=20 Nevertheless, this doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be civilized.=20=20 Often, there is an alternative (e.g. cooperation), and most often the=20=20 civilized way leads to better results (e.g. imagine mplayer would use=20=20 your assembly routines). Gerd Am 24.07.2013 09:03:46 schrieb(en) Fabrice Le Fessant: > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:55 AM, Francois Berenger=20=20 > wrote: >=20 > > On 07/23/2013 06:07 PM, Adrien Nader wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > > > [...] > > > > To be honest, I've never understood why opam was "started". > >> > > > > Contracted development, I guess. >=20 >=20 > Yes, mostly. OCamlPro have had a contract with Jane Street since its > creation, on improving the OCaml environment, to the benefits of both=20= =20 > Jane > Street and the whole OCaml community. The creation of a new package=20=20 > manager > was identified very early as a strategic element, to improve the=20=20 > usability > of OCaml, and increase its popularity. Thus, we started working on=20=20 > Opam, in > a collaboration between OCamlPro and INRIA (within the DORM european > project), with deep inputs from the Mancoosi team at University Paris > 7/IRILL (working at improving Debian package management), and later=20=20 > joined > by OCamllabs as soon as it was created. >=20 > Of course, Opam would not have been the same without GODI: in its=20=20 > design, > Opam directly benefited from the experience of GODI, as we tried to=20=20 > keep > GODI's strengths and to find better alternatives to avoid its=20=20 > weaknesses. > We also studied some other package managers, for OCaml (odb, yypkg,=20=20 > etc.) > and for other languages/systems (Cabal, CPAN, ArchLinux, etc.).=20=20 > Finally, we > made sure we would be able to easily port GODI's packages to Opam, as=20= =20 > the > number of available packages from the beginning is an important=20=20 > criteria > for adoption of a package management tool by end users. >=20 > Clearly, both GODI and Opam are technically challenging software, but=20= =20 > they > are not focusing on solving the same technical challenges (as=20=20 > explained by > Thomas), although the functionalities they provide are globally=20=20 > similar. >=20 > As a side story, 15 years ago, I wrote one of the first open-source=20=20 > video > players for Divx files on Linux, in C++ with optimized MMX/SSE=20=20 > assembly > routines for zooming and so on. I was particularly proud of it, as it=20= =20 > was a > domain in which I had little experience (but great interest ;-) ). I=20= =20 > got a > few hundred users, when mplayer was released and all my users=20=20 > progressively > switched to it. Mplayer had support for some more video formats (but > nothing I could not implement), and some of my assembly routines were=20= =20 > much > more efficient. Nonetheless, since then, I have been a happy user of > mplayer, and it is now much better technically than whatever I could=20= =20 > have > done with my own player. This is typical of the software world, older > projects are superseded by new projects, not always better on all=20=20 > technical > grounds, but providing a different user experience or pushed by a=20=20 > larger > team of developers. >=20 > --Fabrice >=20 > -- > Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: > https://sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/caml-list > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de Creator of GODI and camlcity.org. Contact details: http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html Company homepage: http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------=