From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Delivered-To: caml-list@sympa.inria.fr Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) by sympa.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81B247FA13 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2014 20:04:11 +0200 (CEST) Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=pra; client-ip=212.227.17.24; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of info@gerd-stolpmann.de) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=212.227.17.24; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None (mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@mout.kundenserver.de) identity=helo; client-ip=212.227.17.24; receiver=mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="info@gerd-stolpmann.de"; x-sender="postmaster@mout.kundenserver.de"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiUBADaDvVPU4xEYm2dsb2JhbABZg2C/cQWHRAGBEBYPAQEBAQEGCwsJFCiEAwEBBAFVJAULCxguVwYTCQsHiB8MCchlF4lehT4mB4I2D0SBOgWQYZEfBZBCag X-IPAS-Result: AiUBADaDvVPU4xEYm2dsb2JhbABZg2C/cQWHRAGBEBYPAQEBAQEGCwsJFCiEAwEBBAFVJAULCxguVwYTCQsHiB8MCchlF4lehT4mB4I2D0SBOgWQYZEfBZBCag X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,632,1400018400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="84372577" Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.24]) by mail2-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jul 2014 20:04:10 +0200 Received: from office1.lan.sumadev.de (dslb-188-107-170-128.pools.arcor-ip.net [188.107.170.128]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreue105) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0LoZAI-1WPa7f3qiw-00gXrl; Wed, 09 Jul 2014 20:04:10 +0200 Received: from [192.168.0.146] (546BEFE6.cm-12-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl [84.107.239.230]) by office1.lan.sumadev.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0D685DC270; Wed, 9 Jul 2014 20:04:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1404929044.4384.159.camel@e130> From: Gerd Stolpmann To: Alain Frisch Cc: caml-list Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2014 20:04:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: <53BD49B1.6000203@frisch.fr> References: <1404501528.4384.4.camel@e130> <53BA95AC.3050602@frisch.fr> <1404822242.4384.101.camel@e130> <53BD49B1.6000203@frisch.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-pwAXeWkfL1YAzB8S//s9" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.10.4-0ubuntu1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:s9XW9gRs357TxRpTUVMvtPINs+oDhWhBDzc1o8Myggf 33BUAt9G/O3A7kxLXvMVz6BU9LP5W4xPTrMOIGvPobxso8JVhz uYzBVLWP+qfpUYFmL5A66hv0NKRFZ0eqms7wG8PFp21KnTNvtu BVEieT1fH4wvwWkiOH5UymSuTRk91+fOP/WLUn/XGC6RGxJRcu vq3215zlVsgcOSOSXILdOcT4V7ARJYgpVDuaVi+8W34w+EQ6Ig oin/Q65b1RzEwFCaY/e7CCP8jb21rvJKRTNAYqR8r2oQ2S0DlL L5br01LsdsBl3HbNqIselRt5GlLE+stTXtdK63CXSzjkW3aKj0 dr0XRUtWc7Z3GTMOfq8aaSZc7vkF5XS/VLc26n4ZC Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Immutable strings --=-pwAXeWkfL1YAzB8S//s9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am Mittwoch, den 09.07.2014, 15:54 +0200 schrieb Alain Frisch: > On 07/08/2014 02:24 PM, Gerd Stolpmann wrote: > > It will create confusion even with actively maintained code bases. What > > could help here is very clear communication when the change will be the > > standard behavior, and how the migration will take place. >=20 > It's a very different kind of criticism from your initial point about=20 > the decision of going into the current direction. Right, but the question how the user process will look like is just the next one. The design of the change so far is minimalistic, and it is obvious that some abstraction is missing, and my only explanation is that there wasn't a consensus in the OCaml team (but that's just a wild guess). I don't want to say that the OCaml team is ignoring any problems, but it looks like the missing abstraction is somehow offloaded to the users, namely whether it is needed at all in the stdlib (maybe nobody is complaining), or which style is preferred. (I just want to say that there is IMHO a connection between the minimalistic design, and the social embedding.) > Point taken: the=20 > development team will need to communicate about the expected timeline=20 > and migrate path. But note that 4.02 is not even out, and since the=20 > default behavior is the previous one, there is no hurry, and it's fine=20 > if people wait a few months before trying the new mode. My thinking here is that 95% of the users will have no problems at all when they convert their programs. It's the other 5% for which the current design is not really sufficient. Let's just hope these users aren't immediately discouraged when they find it out. > It doesn't=20 > seem crazy to wait for some early user feedback and synchronize with=20 > them before deciding on a more precise plan for the wider community. For= =20 > instance, you feedback about porting ocamlnet is quite useful and the=20 > current discussion shows that several solutions compete and need further= =20 > thought. Without the new compiler switch, this discussion would not=20 > have taken place. Fully agreed. > > I think it would be quite important to have that in the stdlib: > > > > - This sets a standard for interoperability between libraries > > - The stdlib can exploit the details of the representation > > - It would be possible to use stringlike directly in C interfaces >=20 > Note that if it goes to stdlib, one cannot refer to bigarrays. (One=20 > might want to have bigarrays in stdlib, but we are not there yet.) Right, but this isn't a big deal. (Bigarray also uses Unix.file_descr, but this dep is easy to work around by anchoring file_descr in Pervasives.) Gerd --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann, Darmstadt, Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de My OCaml site: http://www.camlcity.org Contact details: http://www.camlcity.org/contact.html Company homepage: http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ --=-pwAXeWkfL1YAzB8S//s9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAABAgAGBQJTvYQUAAoJEAaM4b9ZLB5TvNwH/jEHqx6AQBVu0zAuSeZnhgxj g5MYre0/ru5Xo/V/RAIIJgOKUVbCIYivKSxKMHgnZDZkzudXIX53BVIAGxa+zaET FxUxe04p9PZVHvQfhpzAPaL2IUUcKNZo0TiOKiNzXkMSdtgwsBYWTyFng/uX5OE1 Wen+o2Lz1pXMIgJKkakhNCTJ2q65MuWad3FJ+UtYhGAmjGX3+HUfhLZqTYMQUCW9 1rQE/gc4U9G5P6M5zJS03R0+5ipO5mB+wGdOTkvRww8jTqLcaNT90btC9rSSAgoM UKIMZiDpJ5eMIP1Z/EgGSwLpUPUOmJWorK+xurrVIVmAv86oJsQkhZpAsTv7JzU= =Wk2o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-pwAXeWkfL1YAzB8S//s9--